Lisabob

At the Tiger level, I don't think this should even be an issue to consider. There's so much else that happens in the Tiger year to focus on instead (acclimating the parents to cub scouting is a big deal, probably bigger than the boys in some ways - lose the parents here or get them used to being uninvolved in the den and you'll never get them back). At the Wolf & Bear levels, there are a few more opportunities. You can introduce the denner system here. It might be pretty minimal in the wolf year but you could build on it in the bear year to give progressively more responsibilities to the boys. Also at the bear level the boys have choices about how they will earn their bear rank. Where the Wolf requirements are very straight forward, there are many either/or options for Bear. Encourage each boy to select options that he will enjoy. In both Wolf & Bear there are a lot of options when it comes to the arrow points. Again, this is a good place to get the boys used to making their own decisions (as opposed to mom or dad going through the arrow points and saying "well you did this one and you will do that one") You can also start doing things like let the boys come up with den rules, let the boys make some of the decisions on outings (should we have smores or ice cream sodas at our camp fire?), etc. Webelos, as you kmow, is a whole new level. But start small with your wolf guys. Keep in mind that they have so few opportunities to make their own decisions in school and probably at home. Give them lots of little opportunities to flex their decision making muscles.

Just a follow-up. My son attended NYLT last week at Camp Miakonda in northern OH. It was their first NYLT course ever (which had me a little worried, when I found that out). My son is also the first boy from his troop to attend NYLT. He'll be SPL starting in Sept so he should get plenty of use out of the course material. When we went to pick him up on Friday the first words out of his mouth were "wow mom, it is soooo much better when you truly have a boy-led troop!" He had a GREAT time, says he learned a lot, and is even considering applying to staff NYLT in that council at some future point. Now he just needs to sell what he learned to our troop's adults, since none of them attended and NYLT is a new thing for our troop. Anyway, hat's off to Erie Shores Council! They ran an excellent program, especially for being their first time through the course. If anybody here is from that council, please pass this along to Dick and Theresa, and their very capable SPL John. And thanks to the forum folks for your input on what to expect too.

Huh. Well at least now you know why she keeps an extra-close eye on her son. Probably being a "helicopter" mom makes a lot of sense to her and comes from having experiences where she has had to advocate for her son, considering his medical issues. Glad to hear you were able to sort things out and that this boy will be able to go to camp and have a relatively "normal kid" experience. Scouting is great for that.

Been there, done that, what a mess! Ruined a shirt, learned the hard way.

Ed, that's possible. But jumping to that conclusion based on the discussion thus far, with no evidence or reason to believe this except that she is currently a stay-at-home parent, is simply insulting. (I thought conservatives LIKED AND ENCOURAGED stay at home parents?!) Again, are you going to check up on the credentials of all the other "doctors" who signed all the other kids' forms? Why her, then? Oh wait, because she's a woman? Because she's a mom? Because she's a woman/mom/not currently working? Because she's a woman/mom/not currently working/with a sick kid/who maybe some leaders would just as soon not have to deal with? (how convenient) Grr.. Let's at least have some REASON to suspect she's not in good standing before jumping to that particular conclusion, hmm?

For Webelos, you (Den Leader) can designate who an appropriate signatory would be. It can be a different person/group of people for each pin, or for specific requirements within a pin. For example, we had a guy who was a forester. We "deputized" him to sign off on all forestry pin requirements. All of the boys needed his signature, not just his own boy. For the fitness pin, we designated each parent to sign for their boy. (If I were doing it again, I think I'd have the parents be responsible for signing off req 2-8 and reserve req. 1 for the Den Leader, but that's just me.) For Aquanaut, there really isn't that much talking/telling. Depending on the optional requirements they choose, they may need to explain the 4 rescue methods, but they also need to DEMONSTRATE them. Those can be done concurrently. They may also need to explain safe swim defense (for the belt loop option), but that should take all of about 5 minutes and is probably a good precursor to getting a group of kids into the water anyway. Regarding time, what we did was to have 10 minutes set aside at the start of a couple of den meetings each month (during the gathering time), where kids could seek signatures on things they had done away from the den. For example, a kid might have been working independently on an art project for the artist pin, and upon completion he might bring it (or a photo) in for us to see and talk about. What we did NOT do was to just tell parents they could continue signing away on anything and everything in the books. We had one or two parents who would've signed everything the first week (whether the boys had done it or not, who cares). Also we wanted to accustom the boys to seeking out other individuals and asking for signatures, which they'll need to do in boy scouting. Hope this helps. Have fun - webelos was my favorite part of being a cub leader!

I'm with scoutldr and I'm not. From how many of your other parents do you demand proof of professional certification? Have you personally seen your kid's teacher's license? Are you absolutely certain that guy who claims to be a lawyer actually passed the bar exam? Are you sure you don't have a "Joe the Plumber" in your unit, practicing plumbing without state approval? C'mon now. Seriously, why do people doubt that she really is a physician? Is there a good reason for this? Because asking for proof of her credentials is very likely going to seriously piss her off. And probably lose her kid to scouting too - or at least, to your troop. (Of course that means you don't have to deal with the kid's medical problems! You see how that could look fishy, if there isn't a darn good reason - way beyond her failure to satisfy your hand writing demands - to publicly doubt her authenticity.) As for why she's unemployed - perhaps she chose to set aside her career to help care for her evidently-sick child. Or maybe there's a glut of physicians in your area (??), or she found she didn't like the field after all, or she herself has been ill, or who knows what. THere are all sorts of legit reasons for this. So on this matter, I'm with scoutldr. Unless you begin demanding proof of license from all the other doctors who sign all the kids' forms (good luck with that!) I think you are way out of line here, barring some very very unusual circumstances (was she on the front page of the local paper as a fraud?). On the matter of not worrying about the illegible form til you get to camp and letting them sort it out - I don't agree with scoutldr. If a kid has significant health issues, as a leader I want to be able to read the form so that I know what those issues are. And I sure don't want to be wasting precious time trying to decipher the scrawl, if it comes to an emergency situation. This is just so easy to fix, I don't see why anyone would object to doing it. Use the PDF. In fact, my son's troop has gone the route of encouraging ALL parents to use the PDF version, just to make life easier on everybody. That's one good thing about the new forms.

Yes I guess you could ask for her license but that's a pretty aggressive move. Is there a reason you doubt her claim to being a physician? More to the point - you can't read it. Go back and explain to her that an illegible form does little good in a case where the info might be needed. Surely, as a doctor, she's aware of the potential for medical errors to occur in such situations. Or is the issue that dad hasn't signed the form? What do you do with single parent families then? Is this boy's dad even in the picture? If it is a divorce situation, does mom have custody? If dad is absent and/or mom has custody then I don't think you can challenge the fact that only mom signed the form.

asichacker, welcome to the forum. If you got the impression that step-parents are unwelcome, that is really unfortunate. I don't think that's typical at all for most scout troops I've been around. In fact most are happy to have any adult who is willing to support the kids in whatever way they are able. Blended families are just part of reality, no big deal. You said you hadn't been hiking/fishing/camping since you were a kid. Doesn't mean there's no place for you though! If you still would enjoy those activities, you could become an Assistant Scoutmaster, get trained, and go on some outings. You'll learn pretty quickly what has changed, and you'll remember pretty quickly all the things you used to know. If you would rather not go camping, there is still the troop committee. Committee members aren't necessarily going to go on the outings, but they are still really important to making a troop function well. Again - sign up, get trained, and offer your time or talent or whatever you are comfortable with. There are jobs big and small that need doing in every troop. Talk to the troop committee chair to find out how you can help. Uniforms are expensive, I agree. Scouts could use whatever fund raisers the troop does to help defray the cost. You could also save some money by purchasing gently used items (ebay is good for this), or perhaps your son's troop has a uniform exchange that you could make use of. Also I think the national supply for BSA, scoutstuff.org, was running a sale on the "old" zip-off type pants, which are very popular with most boys. You might check there and maybe buy a size up from what he's wearing now. Anyway, welcome to the forum and I hope you'll stick around for a bit.

Pack, what are you hearing (if anything) about supporters of the other official candidates besides Ahmadinejad & Mousavi? Are they leaning one way or another? Most of what we're hearing in the US is about the two principles, but I wonder about how other factions are lining up.

I don't think there is anywhere to buy them in bulk, although second-hand options listed by sheldonsmom are often good for cub uniforms. You might also consider having a pack T shirt. Those can be much cheaper (usually under $10) and although it is not the "official uniform," if cost is truly keeping kids from being scouts then this might be a good compromise option.

I guess I end up pretty much where Tony did. Thank the parent for telling you. Let her know you'll be vigilant. As a teacher, she will probably understand that you can't take something that allegedly happened a month ago and do a whole lot with it. But if the kid did it once, it is likely he will do it again and next time you'll be prepared to deal with it on the spot. (I agree it would be good to find out if this was a Mad magazine type thing, if you can. I don't know that Mad is necessarily appropriate for cub-aged kids, but I would definitely handle it way differently than I would handle other magazines.) I am supposing your pack is taking a breather for the next month or two?? If that's the case, when you start up again in the fall, you might also want to have some kind of "code of conduct" talk with the boys (and their parents) that would include not bringing things to cub meetings that don't belong there. You don't need to be too specific since most of the kids are probably too little to know what you're talking about anyway (I hope!). But the kid who allegedly brought this mag to last month's meeting will know what you mean. And so will his parents, if they were aware of the issue at all.

OK now I am really curious. What was the requirement?

Well the last part is easy (ha). Just stop the policy of having scouts in your troop get all their merit badges as camp and MB-fests! (I say "easy" because if you can move the troop toward using the merit badge process the way it was intended, where a boy or small group of boys work individually with a local counselor, it is likely that these sorts of problems just won't occur. But I recognize that changing troop culture is often anything but "easy.") So what sort of relationship do you have with the SM? Is he a friend? Have you been involved with the troop for a while or are you a new adult volunteer? Do you typically see pretty much eye-to-eye w/ SM or not? Does he seek out, or at least seem to listen to, your point of view or not? If you have a good relationship then find a time to bring up the matter, perhaps not related to this particular scout, but in more general terms. Address the problems inherent in how the troop approaches MBs rather than singling out a particular MB and a particular kid. Regarding the specific merit badge/kid, I think you are in a weak position to pursue this as anything other than a VERY quiet conversation with the SM (and only then if you have a great working relationship with the SM). Unless you attended the event in question and then were standing next to the kid when he told the MB counselor that he completed the requirement at that event, you can't be sure what happened. It could be that the boy completed the requirement some other time too. And being the parent of another boy who didn't complete the MB might very well make you look as though you're using scouting merit badges to "keep up with the Joneses." However untrue and unfair that may sound, it may still look that way to others. And by the way, if it is your son who is incredulous that this boy "earned" the badge, well that's one of those teachable moments for you about how the meaning of an award is ultimately to be judged by the person holding it. Your son shouldn't allow the fact that one kid slacked his way into an award diminish the real value that an honorably earned award holds for him. Might not feel "just" to a typical kid but who said life was fair, anyway?

Without knowing what requirement of what MB, I want to propose that it is at least POSSIBLE that the scout is neither lying nor learning disabled, but simply that the scout misunderstood the requirement. I have frequently had scouts tell me they felt they had completed some aspect of one of the three Eagle-Required MBs I counsel. Upon further discussion it sometimes turns out they just didn't understand the requirement (and sometimes, they simply hadn't read it). I try to give the scout the benefit of the doubt when that happens, instead of assuming they're actively attempting to squirm out of work or that they're impaired in some way. Seems like this leaves an opening for courteous and friendly discussion with the scout, to at least allow him to rectify things if he was in error. For example, he might elect (be encouraged) to do the missing requirement on his own, either before or after receiving the actual badge. Or he might offer (be encouraged) to teach that particular requirement to some other scouts who need to learn the skill/material in question. On the other hand, one summer we had a boy at camp who scammed his way into signed blue cards for a couple of Eagle Required badges that we knew he had not completed - heck, even begun. If that's the situation you find yourself in, then the SM should have a pretty cold/hard sit-down with the kid about scout spirit issues. The kid might get the badges because once awarded, they are final. But it might also be a cold day before the SM in question is willing to sign off on scout spirit for rank advancement purposes. That's a kid who needs to earn back the trust of those around him, and that is not a quick process. Separately, the SM might wish to let the merit badge counselor know and encourage him to seek some verification from a scout before signing off in the future.

Another thing to consider. If this person is really doing all you say and the troop's charter organization still desires to continue his tenure as SM (or perhaps in any adult position at all), it might be better for you just to leave the troop and find a different one. Any troop that lets a person like that stick around in leadership when the problem is well known is a troop I would not want my kid to be part of, and a troop where I would decline to waste my energy volunteering.

Are you serious? He shoves people, swears at people, and drinks brandy while on scout activities, and anybody is even considering allowing him to be SM? You need to show this fellow the door. Now.

There are times when having youth experience in the program probably matters a lot. I just don't think that understanding that camp should not be a classroom is one of those times.

Barry, I submit it has less to do with not having been a boy scout, than with not having had unscheduled outdoor time as youth (of either gender). I was not a boy scout for obvious reasons. But I spent my summers & weekends outside, often in the woods. I attended various camps as a "mascot" from my earliest childhood (my parents were camp directors), to a camper myself, to a staffer and director later on. I like to think that even though I did not have some of the same boy scouting experiences & specific scout skills that many of you had, I still developed a deep and abiding love of being out there, away from the suburbs and my living room couch and tv. I did spend early mornings and late nights just marveling at being in the woods. I did sit around camp fires and talk, sing, act silly with friends, and just stare into the flames. I hated reading Thoreau in school but I remember feeling I understood what he was saying in "Walden" ( and some of its critics too) because of my own experiences. But I was never a boy scout so Barry, perhaps by your metric, those experiences didn't count for me. To respond to Eamonn's original post - I really think it has a lot more to do with the attitudes of Scoutmasters and their abilities to communicate their attitudes to parents, than anything else. I have watched SMs who want to take an advancement-driven approach "infect" a lot of parents ( but not so much the boys!) with that attitude. I have watched those who really believe scout camp should be something other than just badges, guide parents (and boys) too. And I've watched some SMs who are communication-challenged, not do a very good job of educating parents, thus leaving parents to their own (often misguided) interpretations and causing conflict. Bottom line is that we can set a different standard and an atmosphere if we put a little thought into how we "sell" a week of camp to the parents of scouts in each of our troops.

I wonder about the Webelos requirement idea. On one hand, if this is an attempt to beef up the "boy scout skills" aspect of the Webelos program, then that is a laudable goal, although maybe this isn't the best way to do it. On the other hand, if this is an attempt to dumb down the actual boy scouting program in an attempt to make it easier for boys to earn 1st Cl quickly upon crossing over, then that suggests that somebody doesn't understand the problem of why scouts drop out in their first year. I don't think making Tenderfoot automatic will solve anything regarding membership issues, and in fact it might make things worse. Overall, I do not think many Webelos DLs have the necessary skills - and I don't think they're going to get them from a one or two day Webelos Outdoor Leader Training session either - to do this well. I think a lot of WDLs would end up signing off on things without the boys really knowing them (or worse, the boys' parents would! Akela and all that). That would set up the boys for either serious disappointment and disillusionment when they get into boy scouts where they would discover they don't know what they thought they did - necessitating a remedial program in most troops for cross-overs who lack fundamental skills but were "socially promoted" anyway - or it would simply further erode the skill base of your typical boy scout. But let's assume (dangerous, I know) for a moment that this rumor is really based upon national's desire to enhance the webelos program, and not to tear down the tenderfoot rank requirements. If that's the actual goal, how best to achieve it, other than cannibalizing the boy scout ranks? Maybe there are some specific things those of you who either are/were Webelos DLs, or who work with new crossovers on a regular basis, would like to see changed, added, or subtracted? (Maybe this needs to spin off - feel free to do so)

New question. The SM is unable to attend the SM portion of NYLT at the end of the week. Just how important is that part of NYLT? I have heard, variously, that it is primarily a training component for people working on the Scoutmaster's Key, and that it is a critical part of the program. Should we try to get another adult from the troop to go instead? Would that even make sense? It is a bit of a drive so I don't want to twist arms and have someone haul themselves out there for what turns out to be just a dinner and some back slapping. By the way - not sure what's normal - I hear that the SM portion runs about 90 minutes on Friday night, including dinner (but before the closing campfire).

My son's troop waits until the next CoH to hand out the MBs. I would like to see us move toward presenting them when they were actually earned. CoH is sometimes a long time after the boy finished the badge. Case in point, my son finished the Cit in World badge in December and just received it last week. It had been so long, he'd forgotten about it. On the other hand, when I last broached the topic, the grave concern was "what would we hand out at CoHs then?" Followed by a (perhaps) more pragmatic concern that this would either require the troop to maintain a stock of MB patches (strongly discouraged by our council, and potentially expensive) or many more frequent stops at the scout shop, which isn't conveniently located.

We met weekly in wolves & bears. Changed to twice a month for part of webelos but made the meetings longer to compensate. One good thing about weekly meetings - no confusion on the part of the parents (is this scouts week or not?)! Another good thing - most troops around here do meet every week. Conditioning parents to expect that is helpful. I've noticed that the boys who join our troop from packs that meet weekly are more likely to stick with the troop than those who come from packs with a more laid back schedule. I can't be sure it is due to the regular scheduling but it can't hurt, either.

Yes he was a little disappointed, but didn't seem angry. Losing isn't much fun for anyone. Mom is the one with the problem. They transferred from another troop (in another council no less) after mom was asked to leave. Every parent wants good things for their kid but lord help me if I ever go this far above and beyond the pale.

Yes in this case, "being mean" includes things like requiring a boy to actually fulfill the tenure requirements for rank advancement, have a signed blue card (our council/district use and check them) from an approved/registered MBC, and encouraging a boy to enjoy many aspects of scouting and not just earn the MBs a parent has determined should be earned. It means we don't encourage a boy to come back from camp with 10 merit badges "earned" in a week, but instead encourage boys to explore the whole camp program. It also means that the troop didn't give approval to a red cross-run blood drive as an Eagle project, where the only real thing the boy would've had to do would be call RC and schedule it. (we gave a whole bunch of suggestions for how he might embellish it to make it a viable project, but he decided to wait and do something different instead - which caused mom to blow a gasket) And now it means the boy didn't get elected SPL, apparently the "last straw" for this mom. He was voted in to OA, which suggests his peers have some respect for him but maybe see that he is on the young side for SPL. Of course mom won't let him attend the OA weekend because she's busy that weekend and can't go with him to supervise - and the OA chapter won't move the date for her convenience. You know, maybe the other scouts didn't elect him in part so they wouldn't have to deal with her?? Yup. We're a mean bunch.