Lisabob

Agreed, there is no requirement that BORs occur only every ___ months and quarterly BORs are probably not a good policy for a troop. But... When I read this thread I immediately thought of a couple of parents I've met along the way. These parents insist that everything be done on an expedited schedule (theirs, of course) the very moment that a time deadline passes. BORs, merit badge completions, rank requirements, etc.. Heaven forbid we miss a day because that throws off the parent's schedule for their child's next accolade. Our troop has a large, functional, flexible, dedicated committee. We typically can do BORs and Eagle project reviews within a week of a scout requesting a review. Every once in a while though, we also have our own lives to look after. Sometimes "on the spot" isn't going to happen. These parents seem to take that as a personal affront, as if we're deliberately stone walling their kids (which isn't the case at all) and as if this really is a race to see who gets the most ribbons, medals, patches, pins, etc. on the day they turn 18. Those sorts of parents really need to take a breather. Probably (hopefully!) Hint is not doing what these folks have done, but having had these experiences definitely colored my initial reaction to Hint's posts. Perhaps some leaders in her son's troop have had similar past experiences and that might help explain their current reactions. And incidentally, the requirements for palms are NOT just merit badges and 3 months. See http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsrank8.asp

If you read the section that was quoted by Dean, you will see specific mention of laser guns and paintball guns. You will not see any specific mention of water pistols, super soakers, and the like. The prohibition on laser & paintball is clear. Personally I think the laser tag prohibition is dumb. I have mixed feelings about the paintball thing. But, there is no wiggle room for interpretation there, no matter how much some people might wish otherwise. If your scouting unit chooses to do these activities anyway, I suppose that's your business. Personally I view that as untrustworthy behavior. As for the super soaker thing. Dean, I'm sorry you appear to have over-zealous people running your council's cub events, but this really is a matter of interpretation and not clear BSA national policy. Unlike laser & paintball, there is no mention of super soakers in the G2SS language. While I suppose it could be interpreted that way, in reality, a super soaker bears so little resemblance to a "fire arm" that I also think it could very easily be argued that the ban on simulated firearms does not include tubes of water being sprayed at each other.

That's lovely. Congratulations to you, and to your young man.

In this particular instance, I don't think there are very many parents or charter organization leaders or scout leaders - or scouts - who would even attempt to argue that possessing pornographic material at a scouting function is anything like appropriate behavior. No need to twist and contort things in such ridiculous ways. Imagine having this discussion at a committee meeting or a PLC. Anybody who attempted to make the argument you are making here would either be laughed out of the room or met with stunned silence.

I'm ok with that. While nobody really enjoys paying more money for things, I do think $15 is a reasonable registration fee. If it allows the BSA to continue to operate programs and provide support for leaders in a meaningful way, then that's ok with me. Thank you David, for passing that info along.

Aside from summer camp, how is the rest of your son's scouting experience working out so far? It might just be that this is not the troop for him, if the SM is in for the long haul and unwilling to work with you. Of course I wouldn't presume to suggest I know anything about your son's specific situation, but maybe you'll like to hear this anyway. We have a young man in our troop now who has some considerable intellectual disabilities. He is the same age as my son and they've been in various school, scouting, & other activities since they were about 7 (so about 7-8 years now). I have to say, this boy is a role model for the rest of the troop, including my son. While it is true that there are some things he will probably never be able to do, he demonstrates scout spirit in a way I can only hope other boys without his challenges will emulate. He's the first to volunteer to help, always smiling & looking for the bright side of a situation, willing to try new things, goes out of his way to be friendly to everybody. I've counseled him on some of the Eagle-required merit badges. It takes a different way of working with him, but he has met those requirements at least as well as boys who don't have his disabilities. In some cases, maybe he's met them more fully because he has had to struggle to complete them, where as many boys just sort of coast through doing the minimum they can get away with. In fact, he has advanced more quickly than my son, who has none of this boy's hurdles to overcome. And it isn't because anybody is giving this boy a free pass, either. This boy has gone to camp with the troop every year and never had/been a problem. He has been a patrol leader, a den chief, a troop guide, and held several other troop positions of responsibility, all of which he has fulfilled pretty well (and again, often better than less-challenged scouts). He earned his Life rank a couple of weeks ago and is now starting to think about an Eagle project. I can hardly imagine a better Eagle candidate. There's every reason in the world for your son to expect and to have a full scouting experience, including going to camp with his troop and eventually, earning his Eagle. If this SM really isn't willing to help him along the way, consider looking for a SM who will.

I think the kind of situation Nachamawat is hypothesizing is really a red herring (no offense intended). That is NOT the question. Nor, as far as I can tell, are super soakers a question in any sort of serious way. The question applies to activities that are specifically, by name, prohibited in the G2SS like paintball and laser tag. Now we can (and do!) go round and round about whether such activities should be banned. But the fact of the matter is that this is one time where the language is clear. I don't read the G2SS to say a darn thing about what people do in non-scouting contexts, but it is pretty plain that these are not activities that scout units should plan to do as part of their program. I am much more concerned about situations like csyork describes, than about an individual's birthday party and such.

Yes a DL can do that. Chances are good that the parent in question is aware of the issue. Kids who have problems typically have them in all parts of their lives. If that's the case, the main question is whether the kid has a parent who is willing to acknowledge this reality and work with your pack, or if the parent is in denial. If the parent is willing to work with you, then maybe consider signing them up as an Asst. Den Leader for that boy's den. (Gives them a good reason to be at everything) The only question I would have is whether the CC is being too uptight? This is impossible to evaluate from afar, but it isn't exactly unheard of for 6-10 year old boys to be a little rowdy and not always paying attention! Does this boy's behavior really cross a threshold, or is he just a little rambunctious?

Agreed, national isn't going to be much use to you. Local camps are run by local councils. National really does not oversee any of the details of a council's regular operations. The troop my son is in now has, and has previously had, numerous boys with special needs. These range from boys with mild ADHD to some with serious emotional and behavioral problems, to some with developmental delays and/or various learning disabilities, to some with physical limitations, to some with severe/life threatening food allergies. We've had boys with autism and aspergers, though fairly moderate cases. We have taken all of these boys to camp, in many cases halfway across the country, without requiring their parents to attend. Of all those boys, in the last 5 years only one - who has emotional problems, behavioral problems, anger management problems, and probably other psychiatric problems - was a real problem. Although he at times stretched the limits of what our adult volunteers (and other scouts) were willing to put up with, still we managed to take him on a 12 day trip with the troop. However, after that experience (in his second year of scout camp, by the way), troop leaders had a serious talk with the boy's mom which resulted in him choosing to leave the troop. Had he stayed, I think the troop might have considered not taking him to summer camp the following year. It was really hard on our leaders and maybe it was too much to ask of people who vountarily took a week off from work to volunteer to go to camp with the troop. But barring really big issues like that, I am not sure why your son's SM is coming across so lukewarm. Maybe he feels nervious and inadequate to the task. Maybe he needs education. Maybe he just doesn't want to spend his week worrying. It might be worth having a gentle sit-down discussion with the SM to see if you can better understand his point of view.

This came up recently in a BOR. Scout was asked about his patrol and he responded that the PL wasn't doing his job. (Not surprising - the PL is a royal pain in the neck when he's there, which, happily, is only about half the time. He never follows through, can't be trusted, is manipulative, the last one to raise a finger to help, etc.) BOR scout's response? He was the only scout in the patrol who wanted the job! All the other, more responsible scouts, had PORs already. Sigh.

Hello, Have you talked with your son's scoutmaster about this? The way most scout camps work is that there is a separate first year scout program at the camp, which runs for part or all of the day (depending on the camp). It tends to be pretty structured. The boys still participate in activities with their troop, eat their meals with the troop, and stay in their troop's campsite, but they are a little more supervised while they are in the 1st year program during the day. Perhaps that program would be appropriate for your son. You also need to take the adult/child ratio with a grain of salt when you look at scout camps. Published camp staff ratios are not the main indicator because most adults in camp are the troop's volunteer adult leaders and that number (of course) varies from one troop to another. So what you really need to know is which adults from your son's troop will be attending camp and how do you/they feel about keeping close watch on your son. In some troops, two or three adults attend with 20-30 boys. In others, 8-10 adults might attend. So the situation is highly dependent on your son's troop. Then there is also the youth staff. They may be 16-20 years old but they may also be highly competent staffers with plenty of experience working with kids with ADHD (not an uncommon issue). Most camps, if they know about it, will work with your troop leadership to make things work for boys with special needs. (This is true for most non-scout camps too.) Additionally, the youth leadership of your son's troop (his patrol leader and the troop's Senior Patrol Leader) should know to keep an extra set of eyes on your son at all times to make sure he's ok and doesn't wander off. If your son is independent enough to be in a "regular" school and troop and there isn't some other aspect that you haven't mentioned, then I see no real problems sending him to scout camp as long as the troop's leaders are comfortable taking him and you are open with people about your son's particular needs.

basement, your assertion that this is ok for the "under 18 crowd" does not match up to what has been going on, at least in my area. Kids - boys and girls both - have been suspended, expelled, and arrested for having and/or sending this sort of thing. Not to mention that some kids have found out the hard way that once this sort of photo is "out there," it becomes impossible to control who sees it. I have read some stories about kids attempting to harm themselves as a result. Definitely not ok. One of our scouts recently got into hot water because another boy sent him (and a lot of other people) a photo of the boy's girlfriend. The scout did not ask for it and deleted it immediately without sending it to anyone else. However, the image made its way all around the school. When the image was traced as having been sent to his phone, the school jumped all over this scout and contacted the police too.

So that raises another interesting question. To my knowledge, our troop has never sent any boys to NYLT. At least in the last 5 years (since my son joined), no one has attended. There is one other boy who went as a member of a different troop. Now my son is going, and he is thinking of asking the other NYLT-trained scout to be his ASPL. It would be good to have the pair of them on the same page. The SM is supportive. But, because the troop has not participated in NYLT in the past (and by the way, no other adults except for me have gone through Wood Badge either), I don't really think the SM knows what he is supposed to be buying into except in the most general way. Boy leadership is sometimes a struggle in the troop (like in most others). On one hand, there are many adults who just want to do it for the boys. On the other hand, many of the boys have not shown themselves to be prepared to step up and lead, and/or some are content to let the adults lead, and/or some have internalized the notion that adults will always say no to their efforts at independence. Attendance at NYLT is a good step for both sides, but it seems to me it will only have real meaning if there is a commitment to apply whatever NYLT teaches. And it is hard to commit to that when nobody really knows in advance what "it" is.

Hav you looked at buying used cub pants online (ebay, etc.)? Often you can get really good deals that way. For me, I'm ok with a cub family making alternate choices regarding the pants. But I would rather see a pack's uniform closet be stocked with the actual uniform.

Do you recruit from a specific school or church, etc., or does the pack not have a natural recruiting base? The invite-a-friend picnic is a good idea. Probably the best recruiting tactic of all is word of mouth among the boys (and their parents).

It isn't a boycott. Nobody is telling scouts that they cannot participate in those activities OUTSIDE of scouting. No point in using such loaded language, Beavah.

Probably the best thing you can do is use positive reinforcement from the older scouts. 10-11-12 year olds seem to think that 16-17-18 year olds walk on water. If your older scouts are acting as good role models and are willing to play the role of friendly big brother giving advice and encouragement to some of the younger guys, a lot of those younger scouts will probably come around. And if, for some reason, you can't get through to the guys who have been with the troop for a year or so, start focusing on the newest guys. If the older and younger scouts are always in uniform and looking sharp, those 12 year olds will quickly find themselves isolated and may start changing their behavior. I also like the idea of patrol competitions & uniform inspections, as long as you keep it fun. By itself, all the talk and "lecturing" in the world probably won't make much difference though, so don't get tempted to go down that road. Good luck!

I dunno Beavah, I think you have some sample selection issues. Most of the troops in my district are aware of the policy. I know this because I've had conversations with most of the scoutmasters about it at one point or another (comes up at RT from time to time). Most of them also follow it. In my son's troop, the overwhelming majority of leaders know about these rules through basic leader training. Many of them think it is a bit silly, but BSA rules are BSA rules and we follow them when we are running a BSA program. The boys are also aware of these rules. Now I am willing to believe that, if any group is unlikely to be aware of BSA policy, it is probably going to be cub leaders and not troop leaders. Why? Because there's a much higher adult turnover rate and a lot more untrained parents/leaders who are also brand new to scouting at the cub level in comparison to the troop level. But surely there is some middle ground between ignoring the policy completely and playing the role of "that anti-gun idiot who thinks laser tag is the same as promoting Columbine." In your role as a unit commissioner, if you can't strike a balance then you might need to work on your communication skills (could be that furry northern accent of yours is getting in the way).

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Joe Bob.

What kind of a base do you have to recruit from? (Is it likely you'll have enough for actual dens next year?) In general, get them outside! A lot of outdoor activities can be scaled to age/skill level. Maybe the older boys can do a little (supervised) cooking, and the younger boys can sit around the campfire enjoying stories/songs while dinner is being cooked for them. Hiking, older guys can hike a little further than the younger guys. Fishing, everybody likes that. You can probably go through the different rank books and find other activities that can be expanded or simplified to accommodate the different ages. But the goal should probably still be to increase pack size to a point where you can have separate dens in a year or so.

There is a time and a place for ... most things. Scouting is not it. Fact is, parents (especially of younger scouts) do not expect that their child will be exposed to that sort of stuff in a scouting environment. Adult leaders who just look the other way risk losing many families from the troop when word gets around - and it will get around. Yup, I suppose we scouters are a little uptight. We don't condone recreational drug use even though smoking a joint from time to time is probably no worse for you than an occasional beer, and probably less addicting than a "normal" nicotine cigarette. Oh wait, we don't drink alcohol on scout outings and we strongly discourage smoking regular cigarettes in view of the youth too. Drat, that whole business of being clean of mind and body, mentally awake, and morally straight. Ruins all the fun.

We had a policy like that. At our opening event for the year we put out sign up sheets by the doors for every single thing the pack would be doing during the year. We told families that everybody was expected to sign up for at least one thing. After explaining that we were all volunteers (you'd be amazed how many thought cub leaders get paid!) and all stretched too thin to try to do it all ourselves, most families would sign up for something or other. It also helped to explain what the events were (a short written blurb and a photo or two from previous years by the sign up sheets helped). After the first meeting or two, we went to those who hadn't signed up with very specific requests (can you arrive early next month to set up tables, etc) and it worked out most of the time. A very few would flat out refuse. Sometimes that was just as well, once we got to know them a bit. The other thing we found was that a lot of folks were willing to help, but did not want to be in charge of a particular event. So if you can nail down experienced leaders and parents to "chair" activities in advance and put their names on the sign up sheets, it is a lot easier to get others to put their names down as assistants.

Context is everything of course, but if we're talking about the real deal and not some overly prudish adult's worry that Johnny used a bad word or drew a silly stick figure in the dirt, then I don't care if they're 500 miles away. Parents can come get their little darling.

Thanks, folks. We found a course in a nearby council that still has openings and fits the boy's schedule. I was looking at the syllabus (all 300 pages of it! And my students think *my* syllabi are long!) online last night. I can see why some of you have called it "WB lite" but yes, it does seem to be much more physically active. Good thing. One of the scout's first questions about it was "do I have to sit in classes and take notes all day long?" There was a little bit of cajoling involved in convincing him to sign up - he has a busy summer already and hadn't expected to attend NYLT - so I really hope he has a fun time as well as learning a lot.

Not sure whether this is too far north for you but the Greater Niagara Frontier Council (Buffalo NY area) runs one in late August.