Lisabob

Just had to vent. I heard an earful about this the other night from a parent in the troop. The boy joined our troop a year ago as a transfer and is now a Life Scout with a million merit badges (mom literally had him on a schedule until he joined our troop) and only his Eagle project to complete. He has skipped 2 grades in school so will be starting 9th grade at age 13 in the fall. Really nice kid, a good scout, but a little immature. He ran for SPL and lost to an older scout. The older scout then decided to select another boy for his ASPL. He did tell this younger scout that he'd help him find another leadership position that would be a good challenge and also fun for him. Of course it isn't fun to lose! Mom says to me "well, he was so excited about scouting until he joined this troop. All they've done is be mean to him. Now he doesn't want to do anything!" Sigh.

There was a district in our council that used to do a big scout-o-rama as a fundraiser. Apparently they made a good deal of money (which suggests to me that they brought in a lot of outside, non-scouting people), but for a reason I don't understand, the council frowned on this and I think they no longer do it.

Your trainer is blowing smoke. Leave it up to the boy's parents. We've done it both ways, depending on what the parents felt was best for their boy, and it has worked out fine in all cases.

"Can I go on the campout with my son?", says another. "I just want to be sure he's ok." Of course you know that the answer to this is yes. And perhaps it might even be good for all involved. Who knows, she might evolve into a great ASM. At least she's not averse to camping! You'll need to lay some ground work though - "here is what adults do, and don't do, on camp outs and here's why" - that type of stuff. Then make sure you keep her busy so she isn't constantly tempted to wander over to her son's patrol! Surely the adults who attend have tasks during the day. Teach her to do some of them if she doesn't already know how. From the sound of it, at the moment she doesn't know you well enough to feel she can fully trust you with her kid. Maybe she'll learn from her first-hand experience that camping with the troop isn't some big scary deal (for the boys) and that her son is in capable hands. As for the one who wants to know the exact bike route and is upset about her son's patrol not giving him immediate tasks, I think a serious (friendly) sit-down with her, one of your most level-headed and calm ASMs, and your CC is in order. Help her understand the program. If she decides it isn't for her son, then wish them well elsewhere.

I got this message from our council office the other day that there is a Pan-American Jamboree in Dec/Jan of this year. No details, except scouts have to be at least 15 and we're sending one troop. Does anybody know anything more about this (like where it is, what it is like, etc)? We're on the Canadian border so is this really just a local thing, which might explain the lack of detail?

I think you need to just ask him bluntly why he did this? Maybe there is some strange stuff going on in his head (at home? at school?) where he feels a need to prove himself to somebody. Maybe he thinks he is doing his big brother some sort of favor, or protecting him in some odd way. (did I read this right - the younger boy is also trying to convince you that his older brother is a 1st Cl scout? Does your troop have some rule that scouts can sign each others' books if they are 1st cl. or above? Or is somebody teasing the younger kid about his older brother's low rank?) Anyway there's something strange going on here, as this is beyond just run-of-the-mill behavior. And maybe it merits a look, not just at this scout's situation, but more generally at how the troop handles sign offs? ETA: depending on his relationship with his older brother and the brother's actual involvement in these forgeries, you might consider asking his brother to participate in part of your SMC with the younger boy.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

"I'm wondering also how an old-style Scoutmaster who isn't familiar with EDGE is going to sign off on that requirement." Leaving aside for the moment the question of introducing some acronymned training technique into the requirements... I'm kind of wondering this too. I hope it is at least well-written and explained in the new scout handbooks so that there is at least some written introduction that adults who aren't going to go through retraining can look at. (Or for districts and councils where leader training is sub-par, which appears to be many of them). It might be part of the new TLT but (again), that doesn't mean many long-time scout leaders know about it, are using it, have heard of it, etc. The earn/save money requirement seems like a practical one. I like the expectation that a scout can identify 4 specific examples of living the scout oath/law. Too often I've seen scouts stumped by this type of question at BORs. As if it hadn't occurred to them that the Oath and Law are supposed to be more than just words to mumble at the start of a meeting. I'm ok with the LNT requirement too. And I heartily agree with a previous poster's comment about introducing at least one or two outdoor/active/fun requirements too, not just adult-style piling on!

"It frustrates me that there are people like that - whether they are CEOs, foundation board members or parents of scouts who won't give to FOS. " Maybe those parents feel they've already given what they can. Being the parent of a scout is not always a cheap endeavor and not everybody has the extra cash on hand.

Just as we don't sell scouting to kids by hitting on the intangible leadership & character aspect, reality is we probably shouldn't sell scouting to the public that way either. Emphasize the things your scouts DO. Let people judge us by our actions, not our words. The problem, as I see it, is that we don't promote our actions. Scouts aren't highly visible in many communities anymore. I think we need to be more visible.

I know this annoys people and I can understand, from Gern's point of view, why it seems unnecessary. However, one year when we did roster checks we turned up more than 50 kids who were active but not properly registered. 50 kids is a lot! Granted, most were cub scouts, where there's a lot more membership churn to keep track of. But there were a bunch who had dropped through the cracks at crossover time, too, and weren't correctly registered with the troop they had joined. So Gern, just because YOUR troop seems to have its paperwork act together, don't assume all the other units in your district do too. And take pity on the poor district membership volunteer whose job includes trying to gather all this information. I know I got some pretty un-scoutlike responses from some unit leaders when I asked for this info. No need to be that way, really. We're all working toward the same big-picture goal, right?

Wow, I am surprised to hear about the apparent quality issues with the cub pants. My son has two pair of the boy scout switch backs. He loves them. One pair, which he has had for close to 2 years, gets worn probably 3 days a week. They get washed constantly. The legs have been zipped on and off too often to keep track of. He wears them to school, to weekly scout meetings, on campouts, to camp, around the house, etc. They've been worth the money. The other pair is one of the new pairs and we haven't had them long enough to know how they'll hold up, but I am expecting similarly good results. The other day I was in a local camping store. Pants that were comparable in style and size cost $80. I would never buy those because my teenager will outgrow them before long. Now if only national would make a shirt that he would wear half as much as he wears those pants! Too bad the cub pants sound like they're not a similar quality as the boy scout pants have been.

I think Beavah presents a false choice. While it is indeed possible to go too far toward one extreme or the other, it is certainly also possible to find a middle ground. We're talking about 11 year olds in 5th grade. Many of them may have seen the sorts of things that often earn a movie an R rating or a game an M rating (note to Beavah, if you can't find the ratings on the games then you need new glasses - big black letter in a white box, on the front of the game). But a lot of families who choose scouting do so in part because of the values that scouting espouses. And for them, they expect that a scout really will be trustworthy - or at the very least, that the adult scouters will be, and will guide the youth to try to be so! The parameters for a particular event were laid out in advance and parents were told they would be enforced. That did not happen. I can imagine the parents of many of our younger scouts raising concern about that. And if we blew them off by saying (in effect) "hey, not our problem, we know what we said but you didn't really think we meant it, did you (sucker)?" then we would lose those families too. I just don't see this as a protect vs serve situation. I see this as being trustworthy, or not. Don't say one thing, do another, and then act shocked when people ask why you didn't live up to your original statement.

If some folks at national were really so peeved about the persistence of the red loops (and red unit #s too?), then they might have thought ahead a bit more and provided more advance warning about the planned eradication. My son's troop provides shoulder loops and troop # patches to all our cross-overs. About a month before the new changes were made public, the troop purchased a large order of loops and red custom unit # patches (all 3 #s on one patch) through our scout shop. No warning or heads up. Consequently, we'll be handing out red loops and patches to our new scouts for the foreseeable future, until our stock runs out (which is heavily dependent on how many new scouts we get in a given year.). After all, a scout is thrifty.

I'd love to hear from those of you who do these. What are your favorites? What makes something a wide game, anyway? Which ones do the boys seem to particularly enjoy?

We tried the pen pal thing too with similarly disappointing results - and a pack journal project where each den got a token (stuffed bear, wolf, tiger, etc) and a journal and were asked to chronicle what they were doing by taking pictures & writing about it. That was a flop. What I learned there is that maybe little girls like writing more than a lot of little boys like writing!

Yeah, that's a good point. I don't think BSA policy actually says anything about teaching family only in a group setting. That is a common practice in a lot of troops, but I haven't seen anything from BSA specifically saying that. If you have, could you let us know?

Ed, my personal experience teaching American Government to college students at three different schools (one of which was quite selective, another of which let in anybody with a pulse, and the third of which falls somewhere in between those two) backs up what that study says. The level of ignorance of very basic facts is really appalling. How can you expect people to exercise their rights or safeguard their liberties from excessive gov't intrusions, or make good electoral choices, when they don't have the slightest idea of what those rights are, why we have them, or what government is actually supposed to do and how it is supposed to work! To maintain a functional and vibrant democracy actually requires quite a lot of a country's citizens. A couple of years ago, I had a student make an argument that we should have some sort of literacy test for voters, particularly minority voters who she felt were less likely to be well informed about politics and history due to the uneven quality of inner city public schooling. She could not understand the extremely hostile reaction that her comments provoked from some of her classmates. Of course she also had no idea that exactly such tests had been used from about the end of the civil war right up to the mid 1960s in many states, with the intent and effect of systematically disenfranchising black voters. A little knowledge of history would have served her well. Skeptic - I've used some of those Jaywalking segments in class from time to time! Students love them, and (beyond the obvious silliness) they recognize the truth in them, too. They have been good conversation starters.

Great question! From the bear book, the religious requirement wasn't one that the boys jumped up and down about. Not surprising, I suppose. We tried to do a walking history tour of our town (covering some of What Makes America Special). That was a disaster. The parents found it fascinating and asked a million questions - the kids were bored to tears. That's one we would definitely do differently if I had a time machine! Any of the requirements that included writing reports or essays tended not to be very popular. Too school-like. Things that went over well - we did a time capsule, which they loved. Almost all of the "Self" options went over well (but not the Jot It Down one). Anything they could build, paint, or pound on was popular. We did a lot of visits to parks and nature centers that year, which they enjoyed. It is a great age to introduce them to hiking, animal watching, and environmental conservation (in ways that are fun and not overwhelming). They're still young enough to be excited about field trips to the zoo (or where ever) but old enough to do a lot more cool outdoor stuff too. The local children's librarian helped us with the Tall Tales options. Again, they're still young enough (esp. at the start of the year) that you can take them to the library for stories and they'll enjoy it. They had a blast with cooking. We actually combined part of the science beltloop with the part of the cooking option, and had them experiment with making cookies with and without a key ingredient (I think we did choc chip with no baking powder - still edible, but way different). We also made oobleck, which isn't exactly food but it ended up in our cooking/science section anyway. That was fun, and messy too (look up oobleck online). Wow, we did so many fun things that year! I envy you a little, that you have it all ahead of you. I hope you enjoy it.

OK so you have a lot of adults. As long as they are registered committee members (not just parents) they could sit on a BOR. This is definitely something worth pursuing with your committee. One thing I would say is that you might want to think a little in advance about when those BORS will take place. Some troops do them before/after meetings in order to minimize distraction during meetings. Some do them during meetings because people are too busy to get there early or stay late. Some have a separate day of the week set aside for BORS. Some hold them on PLC night. Personally, I don't like doing BORS during the meeting. It takes the boys away from their program, making it harder for whoever is running the program that night (people filtering in & out). With the higher ranks, it also means we're removing the boys who are probably the leaders, role models, and instructors from the meeting. But that's just me, and for some troops the chaos of BORs during the meeting doesn't seem to be a problem.

Regarding the bylaws thing - no, I wouldn't recommend that. In places where BSA policy is already clearly stated, there is no need to replicate that in the bylaws (which can grow to unmanageable size if you do that). Just refer these parents to the existing BSA documentation. Additionally, there is a strong temptation for committees to tinker with bylaws. Sometimes that's ok but more often, what happens is that people think they have hte right to change whatever the bylaws contain. In cases of BSA policy, troop committees actually do not have that authority to make changes though. So, down the road you may end up in a situation where your troop bylaws have been amended numerous times in ways that conflict with BSA policy. There are numerous online merit badge counselor orientations. There's an outline for a supplemental MB counselor training. There's also your local council or district training staff. There's also (hopefully) your unit commissioner. If you are the SM, your focus should really be on running the program with the boys. Use these other resources, including your committee chair, to manage the adult/parent end of things more effectively so that you don't become over-burdened.

You'd think that, with stats like those, that there would be a great demand for more high school and college education in social studies, history, geography, economics, political science, etc. Instead, what happens in state after state is that the standards for those subjects tend to get pushed aside - probably by those very legislators, parents, and school board members who think the UN runs our foreign policy and that the government can establish religion. Sigh. On a good note for the BSA, I can say that when I teach American Politics and International Politics at the college level, I can almost always pick out the young men who earned those badges as boy scouts because they already have a firm grounding in those topics - usually far better than their peers who only took a semester of government in high school. They also, typically, have come to appreciate and even enjoy the topics covered in those badges. Hmm. Maybe the implication here is that all H.S. students should be required to earn the BSA citizenship merit badges??

It is clear that there is a lot of variation in how MBs are handled from place to place. In my council, there is a central MB list (by council and by district). Boys have to use a registered counselor to complete a badge. If they do not, then they run the risk of the council not giving them credit for that badge (which comes back to bite when they are up for Star/Life/Eagle). Our troop advancement chair and scoutmasters have all made this clear too. No registered counselor, no badge. Our boys also do not tend to do classes, sessions, or big group counseling. Most MBs earned (outside of summer camp) are done on an individual basis (with a buddy, who may or may not be another scout). Some SMs are more proactive than others about guiding a boy towrd (or away from) a particular counselor. I see this as part of the adult association aspect of scouting and prefer it when the SM plays a bigger role. It is also a quality control check, since there are a few people on our district list who have not been known to hold a very high standard (or who make up all kinds of extra hoops/requirements) when working with our boys in the past. Does work count if it is done prior to receiving a blue card? In our troop the answer is usually not. This is the counselor's call though. We have a camping MB counselor who is also an active troop adult leader. He typically will give the boys credit for the 20 days requirement even if it has been completed prior to starting formal work on the camping badge. Regarding parents. Your description makes me wonder if the questions are coming from recent crossovers' parents. These sorts of things sound a bit like how advancement is tracked in cub scouts (parents are Akela and sign the books, leaders take parents at their word). If that is the case then you might want to think about how your troop introduces new parents to boy scouting - and not just how you introduce the new boys to the troop. And while parents can counsel their own boys, there are good reasons to encourage boys to reach out and form connections with other adults in the community too. That's the best reason to try to avoid this. There are also favoritism issues (real or perceived) that can make a mess of things sometimes, depending on the troop dynamic. Get a copy of the advancement guide, and/or the guide for merit badge counselors. You may also find this website to be useful (I like the FAQ, which begins with one of the questions you asked). http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/FAQ.aspx

See and this is where the G2SS is open to interpretation. I can see where someone might come down either on Eagle 1977's or on Ed's side of things. Personally I think Ed's view makes more sense (banning super soakers just seems beside the point to me). But there is wiggle room here to go either way. Not so, with laser and paintball, which are mentioned and prohibited by name.

Please. Marx. Not Marks. Debate club is a great activity. I encourage you to keep it up. You probably already know that some colleges have great forensics programs and there are scholarships tied to this activity too. Philosophy is fascinating too. And you're certainly right that there is often no absolute definition of anything. By the way, if you haven't read it, you might like the book _Sophie's World_. It is a great introduction to the history of western philosophy, wrapped up in a story. Written by a Norwegian philosophy professor. Regardless of how many debates you win though, most parents I know will not be impressed with your logic. There's a huge difference between purely abstract thought and practical application. (As a matter of fact if you've been reading Marx, you probably know about the challenge of praxis) When it comes to deciding what they want their child exposed to, and who they trust to make good judgments about their child's welfare, and who they want to put forward as good role models for their child, most parents look at things differently than you are currently doing. They look for people who seem to share a common moral understanding, whose judgment and common sense they feel they can trust. Allowing minors to view - or worse, disseminate - such material without taking any action to the contrary, is not going to be viewed by very many parents as evidence of good judgment and trustworthiness. I gather you are a high school student. I think it is probably fair to say that your views on this issue are rather different because you (presumably) have the luxury of taking a purely abstract view. Parents have a much more immediate and tangible interest at stake. If you don't think so, you might want to try asking your parents, and the parents of the younger kids in your neighborhood how THEY would feel about this matter, and listen carefully to what they say. Of course you'll want to be careful how you approach the neighbors, since any suggestion (even if incorrect) that you might be showing THEIR kids this stuff could cause you a world of hurt or at the very least, an unfriendly visit from the local police.

Wow. I can't imagine (and don't really want to!) being part of a pack that big. More power to you that you apparently pull off a good program. It sounds more like running a business than running a typical scouting unit. What do we get for our registration fees? Somebody asked that earlier, and it hasn't really been addressed. I'm not sure I'm the best person to answer it but here are a few things I've thought of that are more than likely paid for out of our fees: 1) answers. Someone must be paying the folks in national's office who answer our questions via phone and email . It is amazing to me that any one of us can contact them out of the blue and they actually respond - usually quickly. 2) forms. I know paperwork is hardly anybody's favorite thing, but be glad that National designs and promulgates standard forms for people all around the country to use. Imagine how much worse our record keeping would be if every council had to create its own forms for advancement! 3) record keeping. Can't say I'm enamored of scoutnet (ugh) but at least SOMEBODY keeps track of all the data from all those forms. I know our council office actually does a lot of the front line data entry, but when it comes time for an Eagle rank (for example), it is national that has the final say-so. 4) appeals. Read through some of the threads about advancement appeals. I never would've guessed from personal experience, but it sounds like there are a fair few that end up going to national on appeal each year. Somebody has to spend time addressing those. 5) National training materials like course syllabi, audio/visual aids, handouts, etc. Now if only I could convince our district and council to use them! 6) Scouting magazine. I'd read it online, personally. But as it stands, it is part of our membership as adult leaders. I can't think of too many other monthly magazines to which I could get a $10 or $15 annual subscription. 7) a website with online training components. Sure the website could be improved but all that stuff does cost money. I'm certain there is a lot more. Maybe some folks with a better grasp of what National actually does, could communicate that here.