Lisabob

I'm of two minds about the boy in pargolf's post. On one hand, I really get annoyed w/ parents who are more interested in their own convenience than in their children. I have to wonder why on earth they evevn signed the boy up for cubs if they didn't plan to take him to the meetings? On the other hand, there are some boys who just never really click with the cub program, yet who can't wait to be boy scouts. Not a lot of them, I'll grant (esp if the cub pack is running a decent program to start with), but some. So if this boy hardly ever goes to cubs anyway then forcing him to stay for another year even though he isn't interested is not a service to him. If what the boy really wants is to join the troop, and he meets the joining requirements (is old enough), then maybe we serve him better by letting him. And so what if he joins a year before his school grade mates? This is part of life that isn't a race. Also I don't think you need to worry too much about assimilation; if he is active in the troop he'll most likely make friends with the boys soon enough. A couple of campouts will do that. Lisa'bob

We send people to training in other districts and councils all the time for scheduling reasons. I've never once heard anybody from our council complain about it. I'd say go for it. Lisa'bob

CA Scouter, I agree that there are times when parents don't know (or worse, won't hear) the whole story about little Johnny's behavior. But then too, I think it is really up to the SM and/or ASMs to keep parents in the loop. I don't go on many campouts because I want to give my son time to be a kid w/o having "mom" around at every scout function. So I don't always see everything. But I know I'd be spitting mad - at the SM - if I found out down the line that my kid had been a serious pain in the rump all along and nobody had let me know until it all boiled over and they wanted to suspend him, seemingly from out of the blue. Communication has to be an on-going process and it had better go both ways. Otherwise I think the SM has failed to do a big part of his or her job. Lisa'bob

Gern I have been working under the assumption that by "eligible" what is meant is that they meet the "joining requirements" listed under #1 of the "scout" badge, as follows: "Meet age requirements: Be a boy who has completed the fifth grade and be at least 10 years old, or be 11 years old, or have earned the Arrow of Light Award and be at least 10 years old, and be under 18 years old. " I can see where others might make a different assumption but I think if we can all stay w/in the bounds of common sense, no one would seriously propose that your hypothetical 2nd cl. scout should be going and quizzing his friends about their religious beliefs and sexual orientation to see who is "eligible." I rather think that's a red herring. Lisa'bob

packwife, you mentioned your son was considering switching troops anyway. If the SM intends to suspend him over this incident that you described then I'd say, run, don't walk, to a new troop because that's ridiculous. On the other hand if it was a purely hypothetical question: I'd support suspending a boy who repeatedly refuses to do what he's asked or to participate in any way and is nasty about it in the process. (the kid who uses the f word at every turn in response to every request) I'd support suspension for a boy who has a weapon, who pulls a knife, deliberately (and maybe repeatedly, depending on what we're talking about) destroys property, who is a serious danger to himself or others, who has alcohol or drugs in his possession at a scout event or shows up under the influence. I would NOT support suspending a kid just for losing his cool or having a bad day. Lisa'bob

Packwife, you know what they say about doors opening and closing in unexpected places? If he's been thinking about switching troops and there are other troops around where he might fit in better, I'd say let him use this opportunity to do it. If he's been in the troop for 5 years then he has a good handle on what he wants and if he's not happy with his current troop then he might as well make the change now, even under less than perfect conditions. And I wish him a better time, either with his new troop or (if he stays) with his current troop. Lisa'bob

Packwife, was this a one-time deal or has your son had difficulty regarding appropriate behavior before? Lots of kids go through a tough period where it seems like every little thing so I'm not suggesting your son is a complete brat or something like that (sorry, haven't had any coffee yet and can't figure out how to make that sound better). I'm just thinking that the big sit-down talk might be more appropriate if this is an on-going situation rather than a one-time deal where he just blew it. If it is just this one incident then making an even bigger production about it a month or more down the road may not deliver the results your son's SM is hoping for. Better might be if your son and the SM or one of the ASMs could have a friendly (short) chat while sitting around the campfire or collecting firewood together or something. You know, a teaching moment rather than a berating moment. On the other hand if he is nearly getting sent home from camp outs or having problems more regularly, then maybe that sit-down is in order. But from what you posted, it sounds as if maybe the SM was just exasperated too and not sure how else to respond. Lisa'bob

GWD, how do you staff your day camp? Around here it is expected that every pack will provide at least one person to work on staff. Consequently, pack leaders have a pretty good understanding of the need to get registrations in on time so that they can plan ahead for materials and equipment, etc.. If you staff your camp differently, it might be worth thinking about so as to give them a really good reason to get their acts together within their own packs regarding early registration. Also, when is your day camp scheduled? Again around here - schools usually let out for the summer mid-week and day camp is often the first few days of summer vacation at the end of that week. Summer child care programs typically don't start until the following week so people are scrambling to figure out where to send their kids for those few days and cubs day camp looks like a pretty good option. I don't know that it has been planned that way exactly, but it does work in terms of getting people signed up early on. So our experience has been that most people do register early in the spring, though we still get a fair number of new Tiger registrations and a small handful of last minute cubs too. And then I've found it helps to ask each pack to have one designated day camp contact (rather than assuming it will be the CM - who may be overwhelmed with other tasks and forget about day camp) with whom the day camp directors can communicate. If you can get that person on track then they can push their pack for you, rather than you having to try to get the whole pack leadership going. I don't know if these things help? But I suppose it's a thought. Also I agree w/ Kristi that the "early bird" idea and the T shirt/patch guarantee only for those who register on time will help. Lisa'bob

Well ok when I ask a question I am usually looking for other opinions. How would they feel about a certain situation? What are some ways that other people might handle the situation? I am not exactly known for being a diplomatic type so sometimes I am also looking for ideas on how to approach someone in a more productive and constructive manner than I might be prone to, on my own. And yes, I really do want to know what you all think or I wouldn't ask. I then wander through your feedback to see what might work for me. Also, particularly w/ regard to equipment and "best practices" for teaching and recruiting, I'd say I've learned quite a few new tidbits here. And I appreciate that there are other people out there who want to talk about this stuff and share experiences. Now in "real life" when someone starts harrumphing about how I shouldn't question the received wisdom of the people running things because what the heck do I know, I usually read that as meaning someone's on a power trip, insecure, or angry (or maybe all three). So I generally pay less attention to that person, especially when that is their stock answer to everyone. Or to every woman. (And face it, that happens in this particular environment on more than a few occasions). I admit I take the same approach here on the forum. I grant that it is true, we can't know how a unit is really functioning just from a few posts on the board. But also I don't see how it is really helpful to inform posters that they'd better just go along with whatever (possibly ridiculous) thing the other adults in the group pronounce based on seniority alone. That's how we end up w/ some rather egregious violations of BSA policy and that's how we end up w/ units that are more like the personal fiefdom of some long-in-the-tooth SM who refuses to allow others to get involved. Not healthy in the shortrun (think sod surfing. Hey, that's ok, right? The SM said so and I'd better not question it) and not healthy in the long run (potential new volunteers are frozen out by the "old guard" who become all powerful and run the program right into the ground due to the lack of fresh ideas and energy.) Beavah in particular: Despite what I've just typed, I really do understand where you're coming from with your concern that we not tell every brand new parent to go out and catch the SM/CC in the act of "doing it wrong." I just think that instead of essentially telling people to sit back and be quiet, it is more effective to help them figure out how to channel their obvious desire to help in an effective manner. And if they ask a question, I think they deserve a straight-up answer and not "keep your nose out of it." Lisa'bob

So far we've just accepted the scout's word on the matter too. I'm with Ed on this one. Lisa'bob

Merri, if it were my son's troop, I'd be annoyed too that I'd already gone out and spent money on the correct uniform, only to be told I had to buy some other pants that aren't technically part of the uniform in addition. Let's face it, $25 is $25 and I can think of plenty of other things to spend it on. Call me cheap but I already bought boy scout pants, I expect my son to wear them, and I don't intend to pay more for a pair of "psuedo" scout pants just because someone got a bee in their bonnet. So. If the troop goes ahead with its new policy and the one person keeps pushing hard to say that the boys MUST all wear these non-BSA zip offs, that's when, as a parent, I'd start talking to the committee and the SM about it. If they decide instead that the boys may wear EITHER the official BSA pants OR these non-BSA zip offs, well I might disagree but I'd probably not make a real big deal about it. I also wouldn't buy the non-uniform pants for my kid though. That's just my take and I know others would approach in different ways. All that said, I do agree with several other posters that there are better ways to deal with the uniforming issue than this one though. Lisa'bob

Kristi The rules are that the boy must be EITHER: at least 10 years old AND have earned the Arrow of Light OR 11 years old OR at least 10 years old AND finished with 5th grade. Consequently, technically, no - they should not be allowed to do this if the boy in question is just starting 5th grade and isn't 11 yet. Also, from the sound of it, he might actually like to earn his AoL and crossing him over early will prevent that since he can't work on a cub award as a boy scout - as you already know. I've heard of people getting a special dispensation from their council to cross over early but I doubt it would be granted in a case like this. Don't know for sure though. From the perspective of the troop that they'd be crossing into, how does the SM feel about it? I can't imagine s/he'd be too pleased. These boys are going to be that much younger than the typical winter/spring cross overs are, and at that age 6 months is a long time in terms of maturation processes. Also that essentially means the troop will have 2 groups of boys to get "up to speed" through the cross over process - one now, one later for boys from any other packs in the area. Might be a pain. And then there's the old insurance question and advancement toward rank question. If the SM allows this cross over to occur, what happens if one of these under-age boys gets hurt? Will BSA unit insurance cover it since they're technically not eligible to be boy scouts yet? And will they be allowed to start earning ranks? What happens on their Eagle paperwork, down the road several years, when the dates aren't right (boys earned rank awards before they were eligible to be boy scouts) and someone from district/council/national notices this? Yup, I think it could be a mess and much worse to sort out later on than these parents currently realize. So how to solve it? Personally I'd like to see a parent or relative step up and serve as the W II den leader for a few months but maybe that's not going to happen. Is there a webelos I den in the pack? If so you can suggest they open up and become a mixed W I/ W II den for a few months. I've done it so I know it can work (though it takes more planning). Also I'd suggest the CM and CC really put his or her foot down and insist that they not have this kind of thing going on in their pack - even if it means referring the boys to another pack w/ a functional W II den instead. Good luck. Lisa'bob

In the past, the way we did the individual sales was that the pacl set up a few show & sells and the pack would take on the cost of any opened, unsold boxes. We were careful not to have too many open at one time and rarely had a problem with this. At least, from the perspective of having excess product from half-sold boxes. We did not encourage individuals to sell door to door this way though - only at pack show & sells. These sales did help fund council & district too since they received roughly 1/3 of the money. Acco, I'm not sure if you were suggesting otherwise? Our council has not accepted opened cases (let alone boxes) back from the units ever, in the 6 years or so that I've been involved. I don't blame them either. If the unit orders a case, the unit has to pay for the whole case no matter what. Again, hasn't been a huge problem. In the years when we've had a fair amount left, we used the product as thank you gifts to various people who helped the pack out over the year. And also we would just announce at pack meetings that x-amount of this and that type were still available and usually parents would pick some of it up. We never had a lot left anyway. Lisa'bob

I've never considered it, I admit. In fact our district and council professional staff have encouraged this at our popcorn kick offs. When I have a chance I'll have to ask. But, no one has ever complained about it either.

I also looked at the bios and see nothing out of line. I can tell you that, as someone who worked for many years on staff and in administrative positions at camps, there is far more work to be done than may meet the eye. Those people were likely too busy to keep track of the special scheduling desires of one boy in the minute-to-miute fashion you may have liked. And I'm in agreement that it would have been better for you to have walked back to your son's site (particularly given the condition of the roads as you describe them - your poor car!). But I also know, from my own experience, that having people wander around the camp grounds (from the perspective of the staff - not yours) is problematic; although you know what you're doing there, most of the camp staff does not and so you may become, unwittingly, a disruption or even a safety concern to the entire camp. Having visitors driving where they aren't supposed to can also be a danger to the other campers, who may not be expecting to have cars in camp to watch out for. In the end it sounds as though the camp administrators may not have treated you with the kind of courtesy one would expect, and that's not acceptable. There are also some people who should really never be camp directors because they lack the interpersonal skills and I suppose it is possible that applies in this case too. But - again from my experience - they were probably harried by the thousand other things they needed to keep tabs on that day, more important in their "big picture" of safety and program demands than whether or not your son had a ride through camp to accomodate his special schedule, and it does not sound as though your approach to the situation was particularly helpful either, I'm sorry to say.

I used to be a Bobwhite and a good ole' Bobwhite too But now I'm finished Bobwhiting I don't know what to do I'm growing old and feeble and I can Bobwhite no more So I'm going to work my ticket if I can Back to Gilwel, happy land I'm going to work my Ticket if I can. Welcome to the critter order Busy Beaver!

I used to be a Bobwhite and a good ole' Bobwhite too But now I'm finished Bobwhiting I don't know what to do I'm growing old and feeble and I can Bobwhite no more So I'm going to work my ticket if I can Back to Gilwel, happy land I'm going to work my Ticket if I can. Welcome to the critter order Busy Beaver!

I used to be a Bobwhite and a good ole' Bowhite too But now I'm finished Bobwhiting I don't know what to do I'm growing old and feeble and I can Bobwhite no more So I'm going to work my ticket if I can Back to Gilwel, happy land I'm going to work my Ticket if I can. Welcome to the critter order Busy Beaver!

Is there any hope that he might still get around to the REFLECT part and realize that he missed the STOP and THINK parts? (yeah, that's probably wishful thinking...) One of the tougher life lessons that kids can learn is that some adults are jerks some of the time too. At any rate they might hopefully also learn that, upon reflection, those who are being jerks should/could own up to it, no matter what their age or power status. Hang in there Eamonn. And I hope OJ and his buddies are having a great time at NOAC. Lisa'bob

Responding to Eamonn's post - whatever works for your pack with regard to Den Leaders and attendance at committee meetings is what you should do and if you have an effective means of communication, ideally den leaders probably do not NEED to be there. However...what I've seen in the various packs I've gotten to know is that if the den leaders didn't attend, there'd be hardly anybody at these meetings! Also, fair or not, when the committee is trying to parcel out jobs that need to be done for upcoming events, they often end up asking den leaders to do various things - and if they aren't there, this is harder to do. I will say though, most of the packs around here don't seem to have a highly organized committee structure (in comparison to the troops, which do). So my observations may not be the norm for your pack, if you're a more structured group than the majority of those around me. Lisa'bob

I just returned from a few days at summer camp with my son's troop. They travel in class A. Most of them only own one pair of anything uniform-related and I tell you, it was a smelly car ride home after one of them took his shoes off in my car. I'm tempted to buy an extra couple pairs of socks and stash them in my glove box, to lend out to my car's passengers on future occasions. But actually I was impressed by how many troops were in uniform on Friday night for flag retreat and the closing campfire. Now if we could also convince them to tuck in their shirts! What struck me as strange though was that there were a few troops where the boys were (mostly) in uniform and the adults were not. As for older/younger scouts and uniforms, I've noticed that in my son's troop it is the younger scouts who are the hardest to get in uniform. None of the cub packs around here require full uniform so they're not used to it. They don't own most of the parts so the parents have to be convinced to purchase or otherwise acquire it. (we do our best to help them but sometimes they don't seem to want help) And 5th-6th grade boys are so image conscious. After about a year in the troop though, I've noticed most of the boys seem to change their mindset about the uniform. I've even heard the older boys coaching the younger ones on some choice rejoinders to be used in case they get teased about it at school! So I guess it is a troop culture thing and if you can get your older boys on board, the rest will follow - but it'll take a couple of years to work its way on down. By the way my son told me the most effective thing for him at first was the fact that the SPL will not allow the troop to leave campouts until everyone is in full uniform. And on Sunday morning they really want to get home! Big incentive to make sure he knows where his belt and socks are. I'm not sure that's the best place to start but there's no question the youth leadership takes it seriously and that has a huge impact on those younger guys. Lisa'bob

I recently received a couple of patches from a camp director as a gift. They're not vintage or anything and probably not worth a whole lot, but he went out of his way to get a couple of extras into my hands and I really appreciate it - he doesn't know me from Adam and just overheard me mention something about it. 5 minutes later I had patches in my hands. I'd like to send him a patch or two in return, as a small thank you. I really haven't got a collection though and he's been involved in scouting for a much longer time than I have. I'm trying to figure out what I could lay my hands on that he might appreciate? Here's what I have thought of, and I'd appreciate your response. 1. Well I could send him a CSP from my council but those aren't hard to come by in our area (he is from a neighboring council) and he probably has as many as he could ever want. 2. I have a couple of CSPs from councils in other parts of the country. I don't think they're particularly unusual but at least they're not local and he might not have them already. 3. I have one or two camp patches from two camps that (sadly) no longer exist as BSA camps. They're not mint but they're in what I would consider very good condition anyway. I also have neckerchief slides, older than I am (with the year on it), from these camps. I have a family history tied up with these former camps so they mean something to me but I don't know if they would to anybody else. Well I'll appreciate your feedback - and thanks. Lisa'bob

About 5 years ago the troop my son has since joined went to England. We didn't go, as my son was still in Cubs back then, but I've talked quite a bit with some of the leaders who were in the troop at that time. With airfare, costs were close to what you are projecting. It took three years of fundraising to pay for the trip and almost everyone who went paid almost entirely from fundraising dollars and not out of pocket. Last year the same troop went to Yellowstone - which is most of the way across the country from us. It took 2 years of planning and fundraising to pull it off and again, most scouts and adults who went paid little or nothing out of pocket. In both cases, nearly the whole troop attended, not just those eligible for "high adventure." In both cases, the entire troop participated (or was expected to do so) in the MANY fundraising efforts - had to seek special permission not to. I don't know how people felt about this with the England trip. I do know that as a parent of a boy who crossed over into the troop in March last year, I wasn't terribly pleased about this situation. For several reasons, my son didn't go to Yellowstone. The fundraising expectation seemed over the top, considering we were new to the group and not planning to attend. What REALLY steamed me was that the troop had no contingency plan for young scouts who couldn't go or whose parents were uncomfortable with this enormous first summer camp trip, to attend a traditional BSA camp instead (and there are several good ones within 2 hours of our town). In fact, this was actively discouraged. I really got annoyed about it to be honest. I know a couple of families who quit as a result of this, a real shame and completely avoidable in my view. I ended up arranging for my son to do a week of provo camp (a mediocre situation but better than nothing) but none of the troop's fundraising money went toward that, despite our participation in their fundraisers. I guess what I'm getting at boils down to 3 things: 1. these kinds of trips probably require more than a year's planning in order to get everyone on board 2. You need a good alternate plan in place for those who aren't allowed or won't be attending this trip. 3. What effect will this have on recruiting? Parents of current cub scouts might be pretty skeptical about your troop if they perceive you are taking extremely expensive trips that are not very carefully planned. They may decide your troop is too expensive for them to join and look elsewhere (or just drop out) instead. Then there is also: 4. Is this a boy led thing? Or is this the adults projecting their desires and plans onto the boys? Half the time the kids would be just as happy doing something a bit lower profile (and less expensive). and, 5. If this is something the boys themselves have picked, how good an understanding of the cost involved do they have? Are they really willing to do the work to earn the money? Has anyone had a serious conversation with them about it? (and I mean going both ways - not just adults telling them what to think - and over more than one day because they'll need time to think it through). Do they clearly understand that not everyone will be eligible for high adventure, and how do the boys who aren't eligible feel about it? I hope this doesn't come off as too negative. Big trips can be done, and done well. But they require an awful lot of work ahead of time, it seems. Lisa'bob

Scouting Mom and others too - I absolutely understand what you're saying about fundraising overload. It is a problem everywhere these days it seems. So again, here's why I really liked doing the "show & sell" sales outside of local stores (grocery, lowes, home depot, wal-mart, you name it). When we do our show & sells, we do have some full cans and boxes on hand, but mostly we sell individual packets of the microwave stuff for $1 each. People who don't want to pay $15 for the whole box will happily pay a couple of bucks for a couple of packets. And you'd be amazed at how quickly it adds up. Most years, our pack made more than half of its total sales this way and we sold a LOT of popcorn. So I like these because it reduces the stress on family members and you aren't hitting up the same network of people over & over for every fundraiser. It gives scouts whose families can't/won't help them sell individually a chance to participate in fundraising in a structured way with their den or pack. It gives the whole community an opportunity to support scouts. It gives the scouts a higher profile, in a positive way, particularly if you can have some pictures of the kids at camp or doing fun things with their unit on a poster board nearby. (make sure your boys know what the money will pay for, because people will ask.) As for the pack (troop, crew, etc), it takes a little of the guess work out of fundraising. When you leave it up to individual sales alone, you are heavily dependent on people to get out there and sell, and some years that happens, and some it doesn't. When you know you'll have these group activities, that at least gives you certainty that some people are selling some product. Lisa'bob

Just want to say THANK YOU for sharing this information with us. I just got back from camp and I took a print out of the pants flyer that Midwest Monty posted and the explanation that Territory Manager posted, and shared it far and wide. The response was extremely enthusiastic (no wait, that's an understatement!) from both boys and adults. I anticipate this will be a good money maker for BSA and might even encourage some of those "waist-up" troops to go full uniform. We're also going to work on spreading the word to the webelos den leaders from the packs in our area so that hopefully we'll catch many of those parents before they plunk down a whole bunch of money on the current pants and shorts. Lisa'bob