Lisabob

While I am dismayed by some of the decisions (both historical and recent) that the Supreme Court has made, I am absolutely appalled by Merlyn's casual advocacy of violence in the safe ride thread.

The pack we were part of seldom used the themes, and when we did, it tended to be far less structured than in the program helps. For example, we might decide to use a craft or a game, but not the whole monthly plan as laid out in the program guide. And we felt no compunction to use the themes in the months suggested either (with some common sense as a guide, of course - outdoor water themes in January tend not to be a great idea up here in the frozen tundra). Like ScoutNut, our den leaders were free to choose themes or not, as they preferred. Exceptions tended to be for Blue & Gold (where we tried to have a common theme across dens for the month). I do know some packs (typically larger ones) who use the themes religiously. If it works for them, that's great. But I think they are the exception rather than the norm. Also it helps if your Cub Scout Roundtable folks are working with the themes - demonstrating how to do the crafts, teaching the games/songs/skits, etc.. I've noticed that people are more likely to use those ideas from the program helps guide when they have had a chance to test-drive them first. This assumes anyone from your pack attends Roundtable!

To a certain extent, it depends on what works for your pack. I've seen packs go in both directions and be successful. But watch the extremes. From my own experience, during the summer between my son's wolf and bear years we switched packs. The primary reason was that the original pack had BORING pack meetings (more like monthly business meetings for adults, attended by a lot of squirming boys) and the new pack did things/went places instead. There are advantages to having a more outings/activities-focused pack meeting. It is exciting, it can keep the interest of the boys, and it is sometimes less work because all you have to do is show up for the activity, which may be run by the staff at your outing location (like a zoo tour, or whatever). Depending on how you structure it, there are also disadvantages. You may lose out on things like den skill demonstrations, brag tables, goofy skit time, award/recognition ceremonies (not just Blue & Gold but every month), time for the dens to play a game, make a craft, or do some simple thing together, etc.. You may find that an activity schedule gets too hectic for parents, gets too expensive, and becomes too dependent on the scheduling needs and whims of the places where you go for your activities. After a while, you may find that planning a new pack activity every month becomes exhausting for leaders, and that you have to keep going further and further afield to find things most of the boys haven't done yet. What I learned from the two packs we were part of, as well as training and (later) from observing other packs that had very successful traditional monthly pack meetings, is that a standard pack meeting does not have to be hard to pull of and it certainly doesn't have to be boring. And eventually what happened was that the original pack we were part of "got it" and spiced up their pack meetings - today they're one of the most successful packs in our town. And the pack we moved to began inching back toward a more traditional pack meeting too. Even when they go on pack field trips, they are now more careful to incorporate most of the elements of a traditional pack meeting into their plans.

Based on your last comment about how the ASMs who are complaining also don't want to be SMs due to other outside pressures, I suggest you remind your ASMs that they're lucky to have this guy as the SM. He was willing to do what they apparently are not, and if they don't want to step up then perhaps they should limit their criticism to that which is constructive. At the same time, the SM probably could have been a bit more sensitive to how his comments would come across. I'd also encourage you and your charter organization rep (if they're even remotely involved with the actual function of the troop) to start talking now about a recruiting plan for down the road. Because it sounds to me like the troop might benefit from casting a broader net when it is time to choose the next SM. Not that anyone in your current pool of ASMs is necessarily doing a poor job - but they sound like they're not interested and too busy.

None.

Oops I forgot to include the link - sorry. Here it is: http://www.bancroftcaps.com/

My son's troop special orders them from the company that makes them for the military. (Ours are green, not red). Here's their link and if you move your cursor over "caps" and go down to "military berets" you'll find a variety of options. They will customize for your troop. Word to the wise if you're just thinking about moving in this direction: these berets are hot in the summer. In the winter, they don't offer enough coverage (down around the ears) to be practical either. If you don't shave them and form them properly you look like you're wearing some sort of goofy chef hat. Anyone with longish hair will probably look silly in a beret no matter what you do with it (so much for female leaders with long hair). In my son's troop, the berets are most popular among the visiting webelos and brand new cross-overs, (but that wears off), and maybe among the oldest scouts who have finally figured out how to make them look cool (forming and shaving) instead of dorky. On the plus side, they're also great for trading at summer camp - that is, until mom and dad find out that "Junior" traded away his $15 beret for a couple of council patches!

Here's the thing that bothers me. In other threads many of us (myself included) have given the advice to scouts and scouters that if a boy doesn't reach tenderfoot/second class/first class in a certain pre-conceived time frame, not to worry about it. That the boy will get there if/when he's ready and in the meantime, as long as he is getting all he can out of the program, all is well. When we get to the other end of the spectrum and start talking about Eagles and "timing/aging out" then the tone changes dramatically. I understand that, really. We all want to see our young men reach as far as they can and achieve everything that they are able to achieve. We want the world to recognize their efforts and we want them to be able to say "Yes, I'm an Eagle Scout." But I have to ask the following: 1) If boys in your program have "lost the spark" by the time they are 16, could you do anything different with the troop program to help change that? 2) If a boy just can't stomach the thought of finishing up certain of those Eagle-required MBs, would it help him to just talk about the topic (not even necessarily work on the MBs) with a different MB counselor, or even with another adult who isn't a MBC for that badge, but who has some life experience with the topic at hand? Some of those can be as dreadfully boring, or as wonderfully exciting, as the MBC helps to make them. In particular I'm thinking of the citizenship badges but I'm sure that holds true for some of the others too. Perhaps here's an opportunity to guide the boy to a more appropriate mentor. 3) If a boy is Star or Life "for life" does that necessarily diminish what he got out of the scouting program? 4) If, after all of this, a boy lacks the foresight or initiative or desire to finish up those last details for Eagle but you incessantly push him/nag him into doing it anyway (finally!), are you depriving him of a possibly painful, but potentially important, lesson later in life that some things can't be done "later" and that regret for leaving things undone can be very difficult to face? I know this is a lesson I personally wish I'd understood at 18-19-20 instead of later on when it mattered a lot more. For some of us pig-headed types the best teacher is our own experience - not what mom or dad or even SM tells us. We have 3 boys in our troop right now who all look the same on paper - probable "deathbed Eagles." One hardly ever does anything with the troop, but he's working on writing up his Eagle project, finishing his last few MBs, and will probably get it all together in time. He has been a Life scout for at least 2 years now. I don't know him well (since he's seldom present) but I'd guess that the day he gets his Eagle, that will be it for him in scouting. I don't know why he's still pursuing the Eagle rank since he shows so little interest. This leaves me to believe someone is likely pushing him to do it. A second boy works full time to help support his family, just graduated high school where he was heavily involved in a variety of music groups, earned a scholarship to college to study music, and comes to maybe half of the troop activities. He was a Star scout for a very long time, made Life just in the nick of time. When he's with the troop, he pitches in, teaches and mentors the younger scouts, gets along with everyone, and is just a great kid. He has already asked about becoming a MBC. He has been on the receiving end of some pushing by our advancement chair (his parent is not involved), but he's a self-motivated young man who just has some scheduling issues. A third boy also just graduated high school, served this last 6 months as a TG for our new scouts and did a tremendous job. He goes on probably 2/3 of the camp outs and attends almost all meetings despite having been a high school senior and also working. I don't know if he'll finish (his dad takes a pretty hands off approach), though we're all cheering for him. This young man epitomizes what it means to be a Scout and really, he's an Eagle in spirit if not in fact. But he's also just real laid back and has never pursued rank advancement with much vigor. If he doesn't make it to Eagle that will be sad - but it isn't going to reduce his experience as a scout, either. So I guess my point is that "deathbed" Eagles can arrive there for a bunch of reasons, some reflecting waning interest in the program, some not. If earning Eagle is more about the parents' goals than the boys' wishes, then hard as it may be, we might need to re-think our priorities and be sure we aren't living our dreams or experiences vicariously.

Hi there Oak Tree, what'sa matter, is the forum a little too tame for you these days? (Just joking) Count me as one who wants her coffee, strong and hot, and that's all there is to it. I routinely credit coffee with helping me make it through all those statistics courses in grad school. I joke about it with my students now, when they're looking a little droopy. When I met my husband (he wandered up to snow country by way of south Florida) I was also introduced to the joy of Cuban coffee. Now there's something that will knock your socks off. But an addiction? Nah, not like that other stuff we tend to use the word for. And if we're going to get on the caffeine-as-addiction wagon, I think we'd do well to examine our diets and priorities because really, I think SUGAR is the bigger problem, at least for the kids. I've seen kids who are on the down side of the sugar coaster act out in some pretty horrible ways, not to mention the hyperactivity you get when they're pumped full of the stuff. In fact my son's patrol decided to "ban" a drink they call a "loopy" which (as far as I could tell) entailed mixing very large quantities of kool aid powder and sugar into milk or water or soda (ick!), after one of their patrol mates got a little too wild on the sugar rush for even their youthful standards. And yes it is entirely possible to raise kids who aren't addicted to either sugar or caffeine/soda these days. Ah, err, it starts with what's in the fridge at home.

My experience is that the quality varies widely from council to council, year to year, and even class to class. So it is probably best to find some adults in your area who have attended your council's University, and ask their opinions. If you sign up, go with the attitude that you'll likely learn something new, even if not all of your classes are fabulous. Chances are you won't be disappointed that way, and at the very least, you will meet some other dedicated Scouters. Around here most councils offer U of S in the late fall/early winter when there is less camping to compete with, especially for cub packs (cub leaders make up the biggest segment of attendees around here). So right now there might not be more than a date posted on the council website. More info is usually forthcoming in Sept/Oct.. You could check with other Scouters who have attended in the past to see what common practice is in your area. In my experience, most of the classes are geared toward a specific program segment of the BSA - for example, cooking classes for cub leaders tend to focus on different things than those for troop leaders. Some councils offer basic leader training at their Universities, others don't. (If you haven't done this yet, be sure to find out when leader training is offered next in your area - you'll want New Leader Essentials, Youth Protection Training, and Scoutmaster/ASM fundamentals training, and Outdoor Leader Skills training. Yes, I know you probably have those outdoor skills already, but there's a big difference between knowing how to do something and knowing how to teach it or what the BSA policies are regarding various activities - OLS should help with the latter, plus it is fun.) Hands-on "skill" classes tend to cost a few bucks extra (leatherwork, for example). Just keep in mind that you aren't going to learn all there is to know about subject X in a one- or two-hour class! And some classes are more focused on teaching you how to teach the skills, rather than on learning the skill yourself - so read course descriptions carefully when they come out, and ask questions if you aren't sure what to sign up for.

We did the biscuits a few weeks ago with some of our younger boys. We used low flames (not just coals - that would probably take forever) and we found some nice, sturdy sticks w/a Y in it to use as supports. Put the support into the ground a little ways away from the fire and balance your cooking stick w/ twist on that. (if you can't find a stick like that, you could just hold it above the flames but then you can't cook more than one/person at a time!) I had the best luck with it being about 6 inches above the flame. You have to turn it from time to time as well. And make it REALLY thin, or you get those nasty blobs of dough. Done like this, it took longer to cook properly than I had expected/remembered (from my youth camping days). But the results were much better.

Lee, It may be frustrating, but it isn't unusual for there to be some difficulties adjusting to new roles - either on your part, or on the part of your friends who are still part of the youth program. This is almost always the case whenever you change positions in anything in life (school, work, family, whatever). As far as making that transition a little easier, it sounds to me like you might benefit from having a specific assignment rather than serving as a general "ASM for everything." Maybe you can talk with your SM about this. Specifically, I imagine that it might be easier for you to work with younger scouts than to work with scouts who are almost your own age and who have been your peers, both in scouting and probably at school too. Going into next year, perhaps you can serve as an ASM for new scouts and help the boys who cross over into your troop find their way. Between now and February (or whenever cross-overs typically are held in your area) you could do some outreach to webelos dens from packs in your area too, as prep. for cross-over. If you take a role like this, remember to keep a positive outlook on the troop. Sure, your troop has some weaknesses (as you describe) but so does every troop, and you want to emphasize what you like about the troop and perhaps what positive changes are in the works (what will be even better...). Don't over-promise, but don't dwell on what isn't working perfectly right now, either. As for the advancement issue - is it really that the boys have no initiative? It might look like that to you, but there may be other, underlying causes to consider. It is true that (with the exception of the physical fitness requirements, which seems to slow down a lot of boys) the skills for tenderfoot aren't that hard and many should be "refreshers" for boys who have earned the Arrow of Light. If they're active with the troop, you're right that they should be able to get to tenderfoot fairly easily. However, I've noticed three things that keep active young scouts from advancing in those early ranks: 1) They're tired from webelos, where sometimes it seems like it is all about "earning" all those pins, badges, etc! They want some time to just enjoy scouting. (Most will not articulate it as clearly as this but that doesn't mean they aren't feeling it) 2) They may be still trying to get their feet on the ground in boy scouts. There's so much to adjust to, going from cubs to boy scouts, and it takes some boys a while to feel comfortable before they start really thinking about advancement. This isn't so much about scout skill as it is about emotional readiness, adjusting to a new peer group, detaching from mom/dad/Webelos den leader as figures of authority, etc.. Don't forget that these guys are probably also just getting ready to enter middle school at the end of summer - another big emotional change ahead for them - and they have a lot on their minds besides rank advancement. 3) The program might not be designed to help these boys advance. Maybe there are few or no opportunities built in to the program to learn and use the skills they need for tenderfoot? If that's the case then this is something that you might discuss with the SM, and that the SM might then take to the PLC. I hope this helps a bit. Above all, I suggest you have a friendly sit-down with your SM to discuss how you might use your considerable talent and desire to help to the best effect with the troop over the next six months to a year. I think you'll be more at ease once you have a more defined role to play.

Pack, I'm really not sure that waiting to get home in order to have that morning cup of joe will do it for some of us...imagine poor Gern out at Philmont (only 6 more days til my cup of coffee...trudge, trudge). Having been to so many BSA events (trainings and lock ins, in particular) where the coffee was the color of a weak tea and the only side option was ~shudder~ powdered coffee mate, I've taken to volunteering to provide the coffee myself. At least that guarantees there will be some strong enough, palatable enough, brew to bother drinking. And real half & half to go with it, for those who want it.

Anne, I'm sorry about that! I saw "AnneinMpls" and I must have reversed the e/i because I could have sworn it said "Annie." Have fun with the girls - so glad to hear they're getting a great outdoor experience as girl scouts!

J dawg, don't lose hope. The troop my son is in will be going to North Carolina - halfway across the country - this summer for camp. Two years ago they went to Yellowstone National Park - halfway in the other direction across the country. In both cases, the boys did a lot of fundraising to pay for the trips (we're not in a wealthy area). So it can be done, but a long trip requires a LOT of advance planning as well as commitment on the part of everyone involved. In the meantime, perhaps there are other camps in your own state that are worth checking out? Aside from Indian Nations Council's Camp Hale and your own council, I found three OK councils online, two of which had summer camp info available on their websites. They were: Will Rogers Scout Reservation (Cimarron Council), Camp Simpson (Arbuckle Area Council), and Cherokee Council (summer camp link is broken). Maybe these are closer to home for you than Colorado? There are also many camps in Texas, which could be easier than CO for you, depending on where you are located. So don't give up hope - but do start planning now, for next summer's camp trip.

Annie, dowels are fine for the twists, but a stick (perhaps w/ bark shaved off) works just fine too and comes for free. Just keep in mind that most boys' tendency with this one is to hold it too close to the fire so the outside is done and the inside is still raw. Patience - and some distance from the flames - are required here to make it a success, though most boys don't seem to mind a little raw dough in the middle (ick). Also they need to make the twists fairly thin. I never liked the biscuits in an orange peel myself. They tend to taste orange-y to me, not what I want in a biscuit. I've heard (though never tried it) that you can do drop biscuits in foil as well. Might be worth a try anyway.

Here's a link to a site with a couple of foil packet breakfasts (mixed in with some other breakfast ideas). The "Foil Breakfast" and "Trash Breakfast" are both foil options. http://www.lovetheoutdoors.com/camping/Breakfast_Recipes.htm You can also do breakfast burritos in a foil packet rather than a plastic bag. For whatever reason my son hates eggs in a bag but he will do them in a foil packet so we've done the burrito route in foil a few times. Keep in mind that pre-cooking some ingredients is ok, will speed up cooking time.

hey hey, Beavah's post snuck in there while I was typing mine. Good advice from da Beav!

In general I don't think there is a problem with an SM missing the occasional camp out, but I also don't think the SM's attendance (or lack thereof) should be tied to the SM's son's attendance. You are the SM for the whole troop, not just for your son. Consequently, the better question to ask is, is there really something preventing you from attending? If there is, under most circumstances I would expect the SM to talk to the ASMs and arrange an appropriate back up so that the camp out can still happen. Now, when should you cancel trips? This is trickier. I think if you start canceling trips several months in a row, you risk losing those boys who ARE actively involved and who would have gone. That seems like a way to kill a troop and to drive eager young scouts away. On the other hand, it needs to be made clear to your youth leadership that they bear some responsibility here. Why did they set up two camp outs in a row that hardly anyone could attend? I'd be more sympathetic to poor planning on their part, if the reasons for non-attendance could have been predicted but they just didn't foresee it. After all, that's a lesson waiting to be learned and something that you can (should) incorporate into your planning session for next year. In other words, this is a typical youth mistake which they probably won't make again if you point it out. (SM asks the PLC: "As you plan next year's calendar, remember what happened in May and June this year. What can you do to avoid having that happen again?") I'd be much less sympathetic if they backed out at the last minute because they "didn't feel like going" or suddenly had a "better" offer come their way. This is a lesson waiting to be learned too, but I think the tone would be different ("You made a commitment and broke it. Other people were counting on you and you let them down."). And in this case, if it has become a pattern, I could see making it clear that you aren't able to commit your finite resources (incl. gas $!) to camp outs where only 2 or 3 scouts attend due to last minute cancellations. Of course, this also assumes that you are running a program that is exciting and appropriate for your scouts. If it has become dull, boring, routine, not challenging, etc., then maybe there needs to be a look at the content of the program. This is also something your youth leadership should be able to discuss (with help from you), since you said they planned it. Are they stuck in a rut with regard to camp outs? Maybe this is a good wake up call for them too.

Sounds like a tough situation. I like Beavah's "official" advice. I don't know that his "unofficial" advice will work - depends a lot on the personalities involved, and might actually exacerbate things if (as it sounds) the CC in question digs her heels in further. Plus I'm not a fan of sneaking around and holding "alternate" meetings, failing to inform the CC of events, etc.. In fact, by doing so you may find that you cede the moral high ground because the CC will almost certainly find out what you're up to and then have legitimate grounds to complain about YOU. While I also understand your frustration with the district folks, keep in mind that the removal of uncooperative or obnoxious adult leaders is NOT their job. They really don't have the power to do so; the COR and IH do have that option. All the district folks can do is make recommendations (usually in as hands-off a manner as possible), offer mediation, try to help you smooth over your differences to a point where you can work together "for the boys," etc.. To expect more of them is to invite disappointment and frustration. So if it were me, I guess I'd go back to the CO and lay it out as Beavah suggests. If that doesn't work, find another troop somewhere to share your skills with, take a small backseat role with them, and give yourself (and your son?) space to just enjoy scouting again.

That's about on par with what most BSA camps in our area are charging for a standard week of camp. As for girls/non-members, yes, I find it a little odd. But then, from a membership perspective this could be a fantastic tool for recruiting new members into the program (troops and/or crews for boys, crews for girls, assuming they meet joining requirements including age). We've kicked around doing some kind of event to attract teens and pre-teens to scouting in our area because just handing out flyers in school or having a community "join scouting" night isn't going to be enough to overcome the perceived stigma attached to being a Boy Scout for most middle schoolers, and so they'll never even know they're missing something fun. Survival Camp though? Yeah, that might be "kewl" enough to try. Like everything, the devil's in the details. I'd be curious to find out how this has worked out at the end of the summer.

Trailblazer mom, I can understand your frustration. If joining them isn't an answer you can stomach, may I suggest this: look for another district or even another council that isn't too far away (depending on where you live, this may be easier or harder) and go to THEIR stuff in the future. There's no rule that says you can only attend your own district functions, including day camp. Maybe you'll find other districts have a better outlook on things. Please don't give up on the program in general though!

Lucy - glad to hear you got it all worked out! I hope your son's troop has a great time at camp. Scott asks about loyalty to one's own council camp. I wish we had a boy scout summer camp to be loyal to in our council! We have three camp properties. In the summer one is used for cub day camps and (1st time this summer)a three night 1st year/1st Class type program offered by council. One is used for cub resident camp. One is quite remote and rustic and is rarely used for anything. A couple of other councils in the area have camps. We went to one last summer. It was the most poorly run, badly administered camp I've ever seen and no one wants to go back. Too bad because it is a beautiful property too. The troop has gone to the other nearby camp on occasion but it is small and doesn't offer much in the way of adventure for the older boys who make up roughly 1/3 of our troop. We do typically alternate between a relatively local option (within a couple hundred miles) and a camp farther afield - that's part of the troop identity, though with gas prices unlikely to go down much I suppose that could change in future. So - while I have some sympathy for Scott's underlying point, keep in mind Scott, that not everyone has that option.

Heck, for our guys, earning whittling chip privileges, learning to build and start a fire, and cooking foil dinners was a big adventure. And that was when they were 4th graders. Sure, you have to offer progression or else things get too routine. But these days most kids do not spend a lot of time doing basic outdoor discovery (looking at bugs under rocks, catching frogs, etc.) so I am in agreement with those who have said you don't really need to go to the extreme to offer most cub/webelos boys an "adventure."

Wahoo! Just in time, too. Glad to hear it worked out for you Mark.