Lisabob

All the troops I'm familiar with accept any relevant badges regardless of when they were earned. So if a brand new scout earns 10 badges before he gets to tenderfoot, great, those badges can "count" toward the MB requirements for Star, Life, and Eagle too.

Perhaps I missed it, Ed, but I didn't see any mention of keeping non-Muslims out of this school - which suggests to me that "they" do not have "their own" public school any more than the majority Christian religions have "their own" public schools everywhere else around the country. I'm not sure how I feel about setting up schools that are designed to appeal predominately to one minority or another. I think it is a terrible shame that such a place is needed (at least, in the eyes of enough people to get it set up). But I think that those of us who are not in whatever minority is being discussed could at least consider why "they" want this program? Seems to me that part of the answer is that "they" are not treated particularly well in "our" schools. Perhaps "we" have given "them" the impression that schools are, in fact, established and run along the cultural lines of whatever group is dominant in the school. Living as I do in an area with one of the largest Middle Eastern and South Asian populations in the United States, I know this to be true from daily experience. And oddly enough, although a good portion of the M.E. and South Asian population around here is Christian (mostly Maronite), people still make all sorts of ridiculous assumptions about who they are. If your kid were subjected to being called a "terrorist" by those sweet little (majority) evangelical kids every day at school based on the fact that your child had ancestors from somewhere other than Northern Europe, and your child's social studies teachers knew less than nothing about the Middle East or South Asia yet some of them proclaimed to the class that "terrorism is just part of the way of life there, what can you expect" (and other, similar baloney), then you too might want to withdraw to a school where people had a clue. But at the end of the day, it would certainly be better if people felt no need to withdraw behind the walls of "their own" culture, sure. Too bad it doesn't appear to work that way.

Welcome! Starting a new pack is pretty daunting, but congrats on becoming involved and I'm glad you are having fun with it. As Scouting Mom has said, you can't (and shouldn't) be CM and CC at the same time. It isn't good for the pack to have just one person playing both vital roles, and it is a recipe for insanity for you! So you do need some more people, and hopefully you'll find some good prospects at your upcoming joining night. But I also suggest you work the (scout) district for all the resources they have to help you. Contact your district executive today and ask for lots of help ASAP. The DE is a paid professional whose job includes starting up (and helping support) new units. He or she should also be able to help you identify some other resources, including a Unit Commissioner (this is a volunteer scouter who serves as a "friend" to the unit, to help unit-level people like you figure out what your options are, and how to get where you want to go). Either the DE or your Unit Commissioner should also be able to help put you in touch with some friendly, experienced leaders from other packs in your area who would be willing to offer ideas or act as a sounding board as you get your feet under you. The DE or Unit Commissioner might also be happy to go with you to your pack's charter organization (sponsor - often a church or a local service club - ask your DE if you aren't sure who this is) and sit down with the CO to map out a better strategy for recruiting volunteer leaders. Many COs are pretty hands-off, but they don't necessarily have to be, and as a new pack you have an opportunity here to build a strong relationship to both your, and the CO's, advantage. But the DE is, I think, the place to start. Understand that DEs are evaluated in part on the number of units, and the number of youth, in scouting in their area. So if they helped start up your pack last year and they allow it to fall apart now, that means they need to start up yet another new unit somewhere else just to keep an even tally. And at the end of the day, your DE should know (and you can push) that it is a lot easier to help an existing unit than to start yet another new one! Keep us posted! I've found this board to be unbelievably helpful over the last few years (both in terms of info and just moral support) and I hope you'll find the same.

Although I'm not generally in favor of mandatory volunteerism (an oxymoron, IMO), I recognize that for some packs it works, and that's ok with me. I do think people need to be aware that it isn't a one-size fits all solution though, and that it depends on the make up of the community from which the scouts are drawn. For example, we have one pack in our area that draws heavily on the poorest part of town. Many of the parents are single parents who are working 3 jobs just to put food on the table while also raising a bunch of kids. They're so over-stretched that asking them to do much more than the most basic job for the pack isn't going to happen and they'll pull their kid out if you push the issue. It isn't that they don't want to, they just really can't. You'll get 100 apologies but at the end of the day, their kid just won't be in the pack. Then there are also some parents who, honestly, you would not WANT working with your pack due to their personal issues and habits. Yet they still have sons who attend the public schools and who, goodness knows, can benefit from, and deserve to be part of, cub scouting. In our area, most packs recruit from specific public elementary schools so just across town there are also some packs from upper-middle class families where more than half of the children have a stay-at-home parent with time and resources to volunteer. Mandatory volunteerism might have good results in the latter, but not necessarily in the former pack. And since nearly all of our packs recruit from specific schools (with the odd family consciously choosing a different pack here and there), sadly this disparity remains in place.

We almost always do 2 nights. The exception has been a January/February trip across the state where there's about 4-5 hours of driving involved each way, unless the weather is really bad in which case it might be more. This year the boys opted to camp for one night (tents!) so as to avoid setting up tents in potentially nasty weather conditions (blizzards) at 2 in the morning on Friday night. They left early Saturday, luged most of the day Sunday, and came back Sunday evening. They'll probably do it again this year.

We've had scouts do this and never had a problem with it. Why would they NOT want to recognize this hard working young man? What, should he wait 3 or 4 (or more?) months until the next CoH to give the appearance that he advanced more slowly than he really did? Nope - not in my book - we recognize scouts as quickly as possible for their achievements because for most kids, seriously delayed recognition is not as meaningful or powerful a motivating force. Let this boy have his moment to shine.

As a cub leader for my first couple of years I just wore the shirt with "civilian" pants. Not being much of a uniform person, that was as far as I was willing to go, and honestly it was further than a lot of pack leaders. Very, very few people I knew in cub scouting wore the full uniform. Most packs and about half the troops in this area set the "shirts and hats" as the standard, and very few are in a position to turn away volunteers over something as small as what socks they're wearing. Then in 2003 I went to WB...had to buy the whole darn thing... (grumble)... I'm still not real excited about uniforming and I don't like some aspects of the standard BSA uniform (like, most of it). But at WB I met many truly wonderful individuals whose dedication to serving youth inspires me still. I came to appreciate the views of those who place greater store in the uniform than I, myself, do. And so now, out of respect to them as much as anything else, I do wear the full uniform, right down to the "brass on brass" and the socks. About those socks - I like the Thorlo ones much better, although they're expensive. After WB I began wearing the full uniform to my cub den and pack meetings. These days I wear it to all troop meetings. My son's troop travels in uniform so when I go places with them, I wear it too. When I attend training or RT, I wear it. When I don't wear it: to committee meetings (I'm usually coming straight from work anyway), and while camping most of the time (it isn't practical for everyday outdoor wear). The one (sort of guilty) transgression I've made? I bought my son a couple pairs of decent wool winter socks that are not BSA although they're a very close substitute. They have the advantages of a) fitting him properly even with liners underneath them and b) being warmer than the scout socks (even the wool ones) and c) being cheaper - that boy grows like there's no tomorrow and wool socks are expensive. Since his troop travels to and from camp in full uniform, having warm socks that he'll actually wear and use for a while is a sacrifice I'm willing to look the other way for. But as for me, I wear the "real deal" and just suffer if my toes are cold on Friday night and Sunday morning.

Ya know, a quick read through the "rules of decorum" link at the top of the issues & politics page might be in order for some folks.

While closing the thread IS one way to stop this, it shuts down everyone else's ability to have a conversation too. I'm not a big one for censorship. Although I'd far rather see both Ed and Merlyn know when to say "enough" I am content to skim over their (sorry, but) predictable and cheap shots at each other. Both seem to find a certain level of enjoyment so hey, let them have at it and the rest of us can just talk around them.

OGE, an interesting example but it really puts things in a different light if every comment a teacher makes has to be prefaced by a reference to their specific religion in order to avoid being "atheist." In talking with students, I've been known to say things like "Hey Bobby, you did well" any number of times. To me, this just is not a context where religion makes sense to bring in, and my lack of religious reference does not mean I'm promoting atheism - it simply means (to me) that religion doesn't play any role in this particular conversation. Besides, as a teacher you really never know what your students' belief systems are (most of the time). So suppose for a moment that I'm Christian and "Bobby" is Muslim. How exactly should I navigate that? Praise ???, you did well?

Hi Chuck, We were just talking about this last night as we conducted our district's round up training. Fun stuff. And yes you're right, this problem is pretty much universal! A couple of thoughts: 1) In school I always hated "group work" where I didn't get to pick the group I was in, because inevitably some of the people "assigned" to my group would be total slackers and I'd have to carry them too. Grr. If you're going with mandatory "teams" for activities, make sure that people have some choice in the matter. It might also help to have a designated point person for the project before you throw it open to the rest of the group (at least, for the big, complex stuff like pinewood derby or blue & gold). Not only are more people likely to volunteer if they're just "helping" instead of being in charge, but also you're less likely to be in a lurch where people signed up to run an event and then vanished. 2) Asking individually works best. Making a large group appeal "we need people to help" is less successful. You need to be able to look them in the eye. 3) Getting people who KNOW them to ask works better. One UC told me the other night that he eyeballs the crowd, waits to see who seems to have their act together, and then asks their spouse "has ___ done anything like this before, because you know s/he seems like a natural for ___ position." He claims it never fails and the spouse ends up doing the recruiting for him. 4) Consider that many parents of cub-aged boys are young-ish and don't have a lot of experience organizing things for larger groups. Keep the tasks you want help with small, manageable. "We need help getting 10 pizzas donated" is a lot less scary than "we need help running our pinewood derby." 5) Make sure all of your existing leaders are on board and upbeat first! Nothing kills the vibe like a morose den leader sitting around griping about the pack. This is a group people should want to join!

That's great - I'm glad to hear it worked out. Keep us posted!

Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it. I think we may have found a local connection for the scouter in our troop to get this training, though not through BSA.

You'll have a great time, relax. About the laptop - I think I might contact the course director (or whoever you have contact info for) and check on that. We had a specific staffer at our WB course who was in charge of the newsletter (scribe, I believe) and he had his own laptop. It really isn't high on the list of things I think you "need" in any sense of the word. And you definitely don't need 35 or 40 people bringing one! Heck, you're only going to be there for a couple of days - laptops are definitely optional and some people may enjoy going "unplugged." You are camping, after all.

Thanks folks! I appreciate the timely assistance.

OK I'm looking for a quick answer in prep for a meeting tonight and I know you guys will be able to help! I am on our district membership committee and tonight I'm helping with cub round up training. Usually I just wear my troop uniform shirt but it had an unfortunate incident with the dryer recently and I haven't had time to deal with it (the backing on one of the patches melted and got all over the front of it - yuck!). I have a back up shirt with no patches except the flag, CSP, and the world crest. If I put silver tabs on this, do I need anything else to make it "correct" for my district position? As a corollary, what necker, if any, is appropriate to wear w/ the district shirt? I have a troop necker (and a slide I happen to like) and a WB necker (which I generally don't wear - but I do wear my beads with the troop necker most of the time). Do either of these fit the bill? The meeting's tonight and my sewing time is limited so I'll appreciate your quick word of advice on this!

"When someone complains a Bible Club can't meet at a public school but says nothing about the KKK meeting there, the Bible Club's rights are being trampled." Perhaps I have missed something here but I don't think this is the best example Ed. For one thing, the Supreme Court has said in the past that Bible clubs and other such expressions of religion are ok as long as they are not mandatory and they are subject to the same rules as any other extracurricular activity. For another, I have not heard of any schools allowing KKK clubs to meet on campus recently - have you? (This is where I suppose I might have missed it, but then I'd think if there were local hate groups meeting in the lunch room, it would be all over the national news.) While I think that the parent in the original article could probably spend his energy in ways that are ultimately more productive to his cause, it is his right to do what he's doing.

Eric, Were the MBs in question among those you had to complete for Star or Life, and if so, according to the printed records, were they completed prior to your rank advancement? If they are part of the Star/Life requirements, then as long as the dates recorded are prior to you receiving that rank, then you should be just fine even though they don't match your blue cards. On the other hand, if they are part of the Star/Life requirement and the dates recorded fall AFTER you earned that rank, then I think you want to bring this to your SM's attention and ask for help getting things corrected. It should just require that your SM or advancement chairperson contact council - since you have your blue cards, it shouldn't be a big problem to get fixed. Hope this helps.

I find I have to agree with packsaddle in terms of specifics. I think it is one thing to let the scouts know that someone they've interacted with has passed away and to have a moment of silence or something along those lines. But in terms of specifics, these are very, very difficult conversations to have with a diverse group of boys. In fact I don't think a group discussion of a specific case is the best way to go. It is one thing to talk about depression and suicide with a group in the abstract (still difficult to do well and not something everyone is well equipped to pull off). It is another to talk about a particular incident without losing focus. You may mean to convey one message to the group, but boys of different ages, backgrounds, personal experiences may get hung up on the details, may pick up on odd angles or just plain misunderstand, who knows what. And in a larger group, those who have something serious to say/ask are less likely to do it. So while I wouldn't advocate sweeping the general situation under the rug, I'd say any lengthy discussion is probably better handled individually. And I agree that keeping parents in the loop is important too. I know that if someone from the troop planned to have that conversation with my son, I would want to be at least aware of it so I could follow up and keep an eye on how he was dealing with it at home too.

If we are talking about a somewhat older scout then this might matter because it might keep him from hitting the time lines needed to advance to whatever rank before he ages out. In that situation, telling a boy he has to wait until the next campout that he can attend does seem to be a bad idea, as it puts artificial barriers in place that could be a serious problem (not just an inconvenience). And honestly, it isn't logical - are you seriously telling me that the only time an SM has available is one weekend a month? I am sympathetic to Beavah's point that we need to appreciate the time commitment our volunteers are already making, but part of the SM's job is to do (or delegate out) SM conferences. If he truly hasn't got any time to do this and he isn't willing to have an ASM do it instead, perhaps he doesn't really have the time to be the SM? There are other scouting jobs that are less intense, that might be a better fit for such an individual. I didn't read Fred's post as saying that he thought the SM should be at a scout's beck and call. Clearly we don't want to support that sort of attitude. I read his post as saying that there should be a little less rigidity in the troop policy.

I don't know what our council would say because I don't know of any troops in our area who would try to do this. This does not seem quite "right." Is there a reason given for doing things this way?

In addition to what others have said (especially what Gonzo said!), I'd add a very lightweight shirt to put on underneath your uniform shirt. Makes getting into "class B" when the occasion arises easier, and spares your uniform shirt of some of the grunge that may come with wearing it more than once during your weekend. Don't forget to pack your sense of humor! Also, a burning desire to become a BOBWHITE is always good (and perhaps you'll get lucky on that front). Enjoy your weekend - Lisa'bob (A good old Bobwhite too!)

Its Me, I think this is a matter of interpretation. I do not believe it is the case that those 16 (or more) hours of scouting each week are devoid of advancement opportunities. When we look at the rank advancement requirements, we see many examples of things that can and should be done during the normal course of events at weekly meetings and at monthly camp outs. Things like learning basic first aid skills, map & compass work, lashings, cooking/menu planning, fire building, hiking skills, knife and axe skills & safety, etc. can all be introduced in the "skill" segment or the "patrol meeting" segment of a typical troop meeting, and certainly many of these lend themselves well to being done at almost any camp out. As for MBs, it depends a little bit on the MB. It is less likely that you'd find a natural fit for, say, the "scholarship" MB at a troop meeting (and I'm a counselor for that one, I'm not knocking it!). But so many of the MBs include giving a short presentation to your patrol or troop about the topic, or require you to DO things that might normally take place during a camp out anyway (think: hiking MB, cycling MB, camping MB, cooking MB, fishing MB, orienteering MB, and about a zillion more). What I think people here are telling you, is that it is seldom a good plan to have scheduled MB "classes" during troop meetings or camp outs. First, not all scouts are interested in the same MBs, so if you hold (say) an Art MB class, some scouts will be bored, which leads to a host of problems (behavioral and otherwise). Second, teaching a group of 10-20-30 or more scouts all at once is not the same as having an MBC work with one or a few truly interested scouts. Not only won't the scouts get the depth of knowledge or skill that they should, but also they won't have much chance to take advantage of the adult-association method at its finest. Keep in mind too that even if you have a whole group who are interested in the same topic, not all scouts will work at the same pace. Some older scouts might blow through the requirements (based on skill and experience) much faster than your younger scouts. Or, some scouts may be so excited and motivated that they work relentlessly on their own and finish quicker than a scout who just floats along, one requirement at a time. For all of these reasons, holding formal classes just doesn't work. But that doesn't mean some opportunities for advancement (or specific MB skills) can't be built into the program - it just means that not all scouts will, or should be expected to, take advantage of those opportunities. Someone else mentioned that their troop sometimes does an intro session for a MB where the MBC will come to a meeting or campout, offer a taste of what the MB is like, and then welcome boys to work with the MBC individually. My son's troop does this several times a year, often leading up to a themed camp out. But the reality is, most MBs cannot be finished in a short meeting plus the time allotted during a campout, so boys who want to finish need to do so on their own. Some do, many do not. (This year, the boys have chosen to take exactly this approach with regard to the climbing MB, the canoeing MB, and the aviation MB.)

This is something I've been thinking about a lot - thank you Beavah, for starting this thread. I'm looking at things from the perspective of a district membership committee member. We're helping to start two new packs this year (September), and potentially a troop and one or more crews in the next year or two. I will play a role in helping these new units get up and running, but I am not the primary unit leader in any of these. Nor have I had personal experience starting new units in the past. I'd like to learn from you, as much as possible. So what I'd love to hear from those who have "been there, done that" is, how can the district help you? What sorts of advice, support, or guidance did you receive from district, and/or what would you have LIKED to receive? Also, I'm curious about whether new units typically have, or take, the chance to build a better/more active relationship with their new COs, and whether those relationships tend to remain active over time. This matters a lot to me since I see so many units where the CO hardly knows they exist - until a problem arises, at which point the CO often compounds it since they know so little about the program. And finally, I'm REALLY curious about the time commitment. How much time should a reasonable person expect to put into getting a brand new unit up and running, in a typical week/month?

Sorry for the double post - I hit "send" too quickly there. What you're describing, Jeff, sounds like an underlying problem with getting people to participate in your fund raiser. While pay/go may make the problem go away, it doesn't resolve it. Maybe some parents don't understand where the popcorn money goes in terms of your budget? Are those 30% or so of your scouts who are on the pay/go method very active with the pack? Or are these the marginal types who show up from time to time but don't seem to be all that involved?