Lisabob

Kudos ScoutingMom! You get the "most logical post of the day" award in my book.

Owl, just as there is no single spokesperson for the Christian world (the Pope doesn't count - he only speaks for Catholics), there is no single, central figure one can turn to in the Muslim world. While there are two major sects within Islam (Sunni and Shia), there are also many other, smaller variations within, and in addition to, these two well known groups. Still, there have been MANY scholars and leaders and ordinary people from various Islamic communities who have spoken out against the atrocities committed on 9/11. For examples, you might check some of the links here: http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm This is an academic group, very well regarded by the way, of scholars of Islam and the Arab world. (Not all members of the group are Muslims or Arabs). They put this page together after 9/11 to help people see/find statements by Muslims (leaders and ordinary people) from around the world who did indeed speak out against the attacks. Or you might go to this link: http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm This is a listing of statements by Islamic leaders who spoke out against 9/11. It includes some very prestigious and respected people. Or you might try this site: http://home.wlu.edu/%7Elubint/islamonWTC.htm This contains many links to articles and statements by Muslims around the world regarding 9/11 and also the nature of Islam. Or there are plenty of others. So yes, in fact, many, many Muslims have been speaking out against the violence that groups like Al Qaeda embrace. The difficulty for us, I think, is that most Americans do not have links to the Muslim community, and also that this much more moderate and nuanced world view expressed by many Muslim groups makes for bad shock-news infotainment. It takes time and care to understand and to engage in real discussion, rather than slinging incendiaries. Very few news shows these days are interested in such careful work because we (the viewing public) don't watch when they do that. Much easier to just report that there has been another explosion here or there and show some graphic photos of the wreckage. That grabs people's attention and makes for "exciting" news coverage where a reasoned discourse with a bunch of scholars does not. So as a society, we may not be very aware of these statements by Muslims against violence - but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

ASM915, I'll concede that maybe the IRA example was too far afield. There are certainly differences between the IRA and Al Qaeda. The point I was trying to make is that we tend to be more sympathetic to groups (like the IRA) where we understand a bit about their convoluted history. That doesn't mean we whole heartedly support their methods, but at least we sort of see why they're upset. Most Americans do not understand the Muslim world at all, far less understand what Al Qaeda is about. Not in the vein of justifying, mind you, but more in the vein of basic knowledge - one of bin Laden's major complaints in the 1990s was that the US had occupied sacred ground (in Saudi, mainly, but elsewhere too). Now, was that a convenient excuse for a terror campaign? Sure, probably - but you know what, it has a certain resonance with people who, 15 years later,see that US forces on the ground in the M.E. have increased, not decreased, and that the (at least tangential) result has been more, not less, bloodshed and misery for local people. By the way, if you read what bin Laden was saying in the 1990s, it is hard to imagine that he viewed Saddam Hussein's regime with anything other than disgust - he actually advocated removing the non-religious governments of several M.E. countries frequently (incl. Iraq and Saudi Arabia) . Doesn't help us - but it does make the argument that Iraq under Hussein was in cahoots with Al Qaeda, as it was then constituted by bin Laden, at least doubtful. But - YES ERIC, I AGREE. This thread began with an article about how Muslim groups and Scouts Canada had found that they shared a lot of common ground. How nice. And then it quickly disintegrated into xenophobic, isolationist, nastiness. How sad.

If I can offer one other piece of advice from a "been there, done that, wouldn't do it again" perspective, it is that you don't really want a brand new parent as your CC. This is a position that requires someone who knows at least something about cub scouts and about your pack, to do really well. And it is not a position that you want to give to someone who might not be all that committed, and might vanish on you in 5-6 months time. You want someone whom you know and trust, and who knows the program. Might it be better for one of your more experienced folks to step into the CC position for the year (with an eye toward selecting and training their future replacement) and then put the recruiting efforts into other, less demanding positions for the fall?

I've known several boys who have done this. They may not earn all, or even most, of the activity pins (unless they're pretty driven to do so) but so what. The main thing is to give them a solid, fun, introduction to scouting and then help them find a troop that suits them well. Keep in mind that for the Webelos badge they only need 3 pins, and for the AoL they only need 8 of the 20. As for the webelos program, the tricks will be a) to make sure the boy has ample opportunity to earn the required pins (fitness, citizen, readyman, outdoorsman, at least one from mental skills group, at least one from technology group, and at least two others from any groups), and b) to get him started on visits to troops and participation in outdoor activities for AoL requirements 4-6. Requirement 1 (active for 6 months) should take care of itself. Requirements 2 and 7 are easy enough to do, though as a brand new scout #2 might take him a little longer - but it isn't that hard.

TheScout, if you were offended then that is indeed unfortunate. Try asking the families of British soldiers tortured and killed by IRA members how they feel about the IRA though, and you'll get an ear full. (And actually, I'm rather sympathetic to the cause of the Northern Irish, though not to the bloodier methods of the IRA). It should be noted as well though, that your suggestion that all Muslims should be removed - or kept out to start with - because they "could" be terrorists, is also very offensive. And flat out wrong as well.

For those who wonder how in the world it can be that "only" 68% of American Muslims condemn Al Qaeda outright, you might be interested in this article about Irish Americans and the IRA. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201943.html Uh Oh. Better toss out all those of Irish ancestry.

"Lisa, Please don't quote chapter and verse, because many of your thoughts are contrary to what the founder said. You either buy into it or you don't. Also it was never meant to be a suicide pact or death wish." I wrote a long reply about how this isn't a contest to see who is the most doctrinaire (though I don't agree with how you've characterized my views), or who can produce the most quotes, etc.. But then I figured I'd just cut to the most important point, in my view. I do not see how reaching out to a minority group of any kind and inviting them to join scouting, to adopt the basic premises and values of scouting, is in any way similar to a "suicide pact or death wish." Supposing that you did read the original post, did you notice that the person interviewed - the Muslim leader interviewed - very clearly stated that there were many similarities between the traditional values of scouting and the basic values of Islam? I'd think we would be thrilled to see such a confluence of ideals. I live in an area of the US where there is a very large Muslim population. We have Muslim boys in several troops in our district, including in my son's troop. They're just like any other boys when it comes right down to it - they like to camp and make smores and goof around and do the stuff scouts do. And their families? Very supportive of scouting. Why people seem to feel a need to make "boogey men" out of them is beyond me. Are there "bad apples?" Yes. And fanatics of all stripes are dangerous, scary people. Let's not brand an entire world religion though, because of the actions of a small minority. That would be like saying all Americans are bad people because of the abuses perpetrated by a few at Abu Ghraib. And by the way, if you don't think there are people who DO do exactly that to Americans as a result of our military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, you're mistaken. But there are also a lot of moderating voices - they just don't tend to get as much coverage because they aren't as sensational as a bombing. And we all know that fear and sensationalism sell.

OK I'll give sealing the seams a try and see what happens. Thanks for all the suggestions.

We've talked about dividing our lists by school. For the cub packs this works reasonably well, as most of our packs draw from a specific school most of the time. This does not work well in a couple of areas though. For the town where the elem. schools are set up so one building houses all of the K-1, another building houses all of the 2-3, and another houses all of the 4-5 for the whole district, or (at troop/crew level) where the town only has one middle or high school, division by school isn't useful. Probably the latter is more of a problem in small town and rural America than in suburban and urban areas. I like the idea of the boys being involved where possible in recruiting their friends - if you can convince the scouts to do so.

Besides my son's troop, there are two other troops in our town. One is about the same size as my son's troop (35-50 boys at any given time) and is our main "competition" so to speak. The other is a very small troop (10-12 boys registered, fewer active). They also have a rock-solid SM and a nice program, but they struggle for being so small. They have a harder time recruiting new webelos, which is something their SM has mentioned several times over the years bothers him. I know this SM from Wood Badge - he's a great guy who knows his stuff and I'd trust him with my kid in a minute (actually I kind of wanted my son to join this troop when he crossed over, but he liked the larger troop better and he's happy where he is now). Anyway - recently I've heard from some boys in the smaller troop that they like the troop, but that they haven't been camping much this year. It seems that they are having a problem getting 2 deep leadership for camp outs and have had to cancel several times in the last few months. Meanwhile, our troop has, if possible, too many adults on some camp outs. Our last camp out had 38 boys and 16 adults. We rarely go anywhere with fewer than 8 adults. It's great that we have so many active, supportive parents and other adults. But one reason I seldom camp with my son's troop is because they really do not need me there. I'm thinking about contacting the SM of the smaller troop and letting him know that I'd be willing to go along as their 2nd adult from time to time so that they could do more camping and, hopefully, keep more boys involved with their troop as a result. What do you think? I know we have the SMs of some smaller troops hanging around the boards - would you be offended by such an offer? I don't pretend that I have a huge amount of experience and I'm not registered as an ASM. But if all they need is an occasional 2nd adult for simple, local camping, hey I could do that. Is this a good idea, or should I keep out of it?

Wingnut, you misunderstand - or I wasn't clear, more likely. He did NOT approach us. We certainly DID approach him. No, we don't allow random people to hang out at our troop meetings. My point was, this guy certainly didn't seem to feel a need to make himself well known to us - which I found pretty odd, actually. He just showed up one day. Some checking up revealed that he was indeed who he said he was, and that yes, he had been assigned to us as our UC. But it hardly instilled confidence in the commissioner corp as a whole, since even our DC - to whom this guy answers - initially told us we just didn't have a UC.

"A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own." In this spirit, I think it is a good idea for Scouts Canada - and the BSA too - to reach out to various cultural groups. As the original article in this thread suggests, it is sometimes surprising to discover how much we have in common with "them," whoever "they" may be in a given context. Narrow-mindedness is seldom a good thing. That's all I'm going to say on this thread.

We have a UC. Earlier this winter I needed to find out who that person was in order to follow up on something that our district leadership asked us to do. I contacted our committee chair, was given the wrong name. I contacted our District Commish, was told we didn't have one. I contacted our DE, was given the wrong name. I contacted our District Chair (who one of the above told me was our UC) and was given the wrong name. When I finally found out who our UC was I contacted all of the above to let THEM know. It turns out the UC has been to a troop meeting (some guy in the back of the room, whom no one could identify - he didn't approach anyone either but that's how I found out who he was). If we ever really had a problem? I can't imagine calling on this gentleman to help us since we have no relationship with him at all. I had similar experiences with the pack we were part of. When we had a leadership meltdown and really needed help, at one point we found ourselves in a meeting room with the pack committee and four or five district types including the UC and the District Commissioner. I've gotten to know them since then and they're great guys who know a lot about scouting. But they weren't much help to us because a) we'd never met them before and b) they didn't know anything about our pack and c) all they did was tell "war stories" of things they'd done/seen/survived. Which wasn't what we needed at the time. So I've about given up on the UCs. We probably have a few real gems of UCs in our district but I would never, ever, count on the commissioner corp to accomplish anything of note in our district, because it just wouldn't happen.

Thanks for all the input! More info, as requested: This is a North Face peregrine tent. NF no longer manufactures it but here's a pic of it: http://www.amazon.com/North-Face-Peregrine/dp/B0001KJRAI It was NOT a cheap department store tent - something in the range of $200 when I bought it three or four years ago, though it was a floor model and on sale so it cost me less than that I'm happy to say. It is kind of a weird shape - not sure how to describe it. It has three rods and is sort of a hexagon shape at one end and narrows toward the feet at the other. The rain fly doesn't have a real high profile - it fits very close to the tent. To be honest, it is probably not the best tent for a newbie tent camper. But it is what I have and I've liked it - a lot - when the weather was dry. It's light and easy to carry, fairly easy to set up (a bit more of a pain to take down, but minor things), and doesn't leave a big footprint of mashed grass, etc, when I'm done. As for weather conditions, it was not windy at all, just raining very hard, straight down. I think I probably did get some moisture coming up through the floor of the tent (my ground cloth isn't the same shape as the tent so I end up doing some folding, which probably isn't the best - another story!) but I was watching the water drip straight through the fly and through the tent ceiling too. Didn't seem to be a pattern (seemed more like a lot of rain in my tent!), but I guess I also didn't stay there long enough to really notice.

Boy I'm really interested to hear what people think about this. I'm on our district membership committee and we've been talking about just this topic recently. For me, no way would I do cold calls to a youth. Too much potential for it to come across as creepy, in their parents' eyes. Plus I don't know that it would be effective for a child to receive a call from some adult they've never met, asking them to join their troop. We've talked too about turning over a list to the SMs. This brings up the question of releasing info (name, grade, address, phone #, school, birthdate) about boys who are no longer scouts, to a bunch of adults whom they do not know. While WE know (I hope) that all of our SMs are trustworthy types, the parents might be unhappy about this. I think I would be - not knowing who, how many, or what type of people now knew all of this info about my child. What we've settled on, from the district level, is that we will send out a letter to the youth and a letter to the parent, inviting them to rejoin and to visit local troops. We'll include contact info for those troops. We'll tell the SMs that we're doing this (expect inquiries from potential new scouts) and we'll provide a list of names - but at this stage, not contact info - to the SMs so they know who we've sent the letters to in their area. The jury is still out on providing our SMs with more info than that and asking them to do what gwd is describing. gwd, since you DO have the info - one thought we've also tossed around is having the SPL (or another scout) write a letter to the youth, and have the SM write a letter to the parent. They could be mailed together to save postage, but the SPL might speak more to the youth's perspective and interests. Especially if you live in a small town and other boys might know the SPL from school, sports, etc.. Please keep us posted here! I'm really curious to hear how things go.

Whoops, you are correct ScoutNut. Don't know what I was thinking. Thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow.

There are good, and bad, people of every stripe. Non-Muslim, white, umpteenth generation Americans are no exception. I grew up a few miles down the road from a young man named Timothy McVeigh. I now live a few miles down the road from the former home of one of his accomplices, Terry Nichols. I certainly hope the world doesn't judge us on the basis of what these two nut jobs did inside our own country. Similarly I hope most people in the Muslim world doesn't judge us on the basis of the minority of Americans who hold some serious misconceptions about what the majority of Muslims believe and do.

OK I have what is probably a "newbie" question but I would appreciate your help when you're done smirking and shaking your heads. I don't camp that often with the troop - a couple times a year so far. And I've been very lucky in that every time I've done so, the weather has been nice. Cold on occasion, but dry. I may do a little more camping next year, now that my son is older and secure enough in his position in the troop that he doesn't see it as an intrusion. But anyway, last night I went along on a one-night camp with some of our guys who needed to finish up some rank requirements before our CoH. (They needed a second adult for 2 deep leadership and I was free.) Well at about 6 this morning it started to rain. And then it poured. And I discovered that my rain fly? It isn't water proof. By the time I took my tent down, water was just dripping straight through into the tent. I guess I'm glad it didn't start raining in the middle of the night! There is one small hole in the fly in the plastic "window" but that wasn't the issue - water was dripping through the entire fly. So what I'd like to know is, don't rain flies come with water proofing stuff on them already when you buy them most of the time? If so, how often do you need to re-do the water proofing (does it wear off?) And maybe more importantly, what works well for waterproofing, because obviously mine needs it. Although it was a pretty wet morning we still had a good time. The guys got done what they needed to do, I showed them how to do some cooking things, and they taught me how to use an axe and a hatchet. I think they got a kick out of that, a bunch of 11 and 12 year olds, teaching me stuff. I told them that if they could teach an adult, they could definitely teach other scouts!

Good suggestions so far. I would also add that you (remaining leaders) may want to give serious consideration to what the CC offered as her reason for stepping down. Of course you may not see eye to eye with her, or her explanation may be a cover for the "real" reason, whatever that is. But is there a kernel of truth to what she said? If so, how can you work with whomever is the next CC to improve things? As a young pack undergoing your first significant leader turnover, this is a good time for a bit of self-assessment. Thorns & Roses, right? And if you're not sure about leading such a discussion, your UC (if they're any good) may be able to help out here as an objective, interested third party.

I wonder what recent polls of non-Muslim Americans might show about the misconceptions many people seem to harbor regarding Islam and Muslims? Might not be a very pretty picture. For those who are interested, here's a link to the Pew poll that came out last week on American Muslims and their views on a variety of social, cultural, and political issues. Pew is one of the most respected names in the business and has a rock solid reputation for doing unbiased work on sensitive issues. http://pewresearch.org/pubs/483/muslim-americans Among the major findings: "# Overall, Muslim Americans have a generally positive view of the larger society. Most say their communities are excellent or good places to live. # A large majority of Muslim Americans believe that hard work pays off in this society. Fully 71% agree that most people who want to get ahead in the United States can make it if they are willing to work hard. # The survey shows that although many Muslims are relative newcomers to the U.S., they are highly assimilated into American society. On balance, they believe that Muslims coming to the U.S. should try and adopt American customs, rather than trying to remain distinct from the larger society. And by nearly two-to-one (63%-32%) Muslim Americans do not see a conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society." All of that sounds about as American as, well, Apple Pie to me. And although Owl's information also comes from this poll, it may be useful to note some context and additional, relevant findings: "Relatively few Muslim Americans believe the U.S.-led war on terror is a sincere effort to reduce terrorism, and many doubt that Arabs were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Just 40% of Muslim Americans say groups of Arabs carried out those attacks." And "Muslim Americans reject Islamic extremism by larger margins than do Muslim minorities in Western European countries. ... [A]bsolute levels of support for Islamic extremism among Muslim Americans are quite low, especially when compared with Muslims around the world." In fact, somewhere later in the report it states that 80% of American Muslims reject suicide bombings and the like too.

Hi Results1, I definitely understand about the "code" problem! I got involved as a leader when my son was in cub scouts (a pack is the whole group of boys in cub scouts. They are then broken down into "dens." Dens usually consist of 6-10 boys who are in the same grade. Generally speaking, boys in 1st-5th grade can be cub scouts. In most cases, sometime during 5th grade they will transition from cub scouts to boy scouts.). After a time I decided to do some boy scout leader training sessions so that I would have a better understanding of what the boys had to look forward to. All of a sudden I was up to my eyeballs in code! It just takes a little while to learn is all. The online training that a few people have mentioned is very helpful in that regard. You probably want to begin with "Boy Scout Leader Fast Start Training," which gives you a good overview of a boy scout troop. "New Leader Essentials" is also online and that helps you understand how the various pieces of the BSA (cubs, boy scouts, crews, etc.) fit together to form a coherent youth program, and also how packs/troops/crews, district, and council folks are supposed to relate to one another. Once you know how things are supposed to work, you'll also be in a better position to determine how well the troops in your area actually follow the BSA program. Best of luck to you and your son (make sure to involve him in your search for a different troop!).

FScouter, I would respectfully suggest to you that your second comment, if followed, has a strong potential to further victimize the victims - the mother, by taking away from her a child she may not have consented to having in the first place, but whom she may decide she truly wants to bear, raise, love, and mother. The child, by taking him or her away from his biological mother and her whole family just because the biological father did something reprehensible. A policy such as yours suggests that women who are raped, and the children they may bear as a result, have a stigma that follows them through their lifetimes. I hope that's something you would reconsider.

Lizzy, I don't have time to find the source for this. But I think last year there was a news story about a cub who fell (jumped?) off a flat bed truck in a parade and was struck and killed by the vehicle behind the truck. Anybody else know whether I'm remembering accurately or not? Several area packs typically march (well - meander) in the parade. My son's troop will march and will assist with the ceremonies at the local cemetery.

Scott is right that you only need a commercial license for a van that is designed to carry more than 15 people. Here's the wording on the tour permit - pretty clear in this instance: "If the vehicle to be used is designed to carry more than 15 persons (including driver), the driver must have a commercial drivers license (CDL)." If you are thinking of renting a van, you might check to see if any local rental companies or local dealerships can give you a deal. Several years ago (before I was involved) our troop took a cross country trip in vans that were donated by a local Ford dealership. That dealership is the first place many of our leaders go when looking for a new vehicle these days, I'm told as a direct result. They might say no but it can't hurt to ask, right?