Lisabob

I don't think there's much to be gained by questioning the validity of these boys' AoL awards. They are being awarded and kahits isn't doing the awarding as he is the SM in the troop, not the DL or CM in the pack. The real question ought to be what happens with these boys. Are they really ready to cross? Is the troop fully prepared to take on a bunch of new 10 year olds? In my experience the difference between end of 4th and end of 5th grade is enormous in terms of maturity levels so I hope the troop knows what they are doing here and can handle new, young, scouts with grace. Otherwise they'll simply lose them sooner, instead of later. (Besides which, it is feasible (though I suppose we could quibble over "advisable") to earn AoL by late in the 4th grade year. A boy needs to be active in his webelos den for 4 months to earn the Webelos rank and another 6 months after that to earn AoL. A den that is active in the summers might start "counting" activities toward Webelos as early as June 1st after 3rd grade. So they go to day camp, resident camp, do some other summer activities, and the 4 month point comes in the beginning of October. Now they remain active and the 6 month point (for AoL) comes in early April. This requires coordination and drive, but it is at least possible.)

Oh! I was thinking of some sort of expensive kit with motors, etc. Thanks for the info CNY!

Thought I'd give this a bump. The guys are about 2 months away from their aviation camp out and will be planning out final details this week. A couple of questions: 1) Looking at the newest version of the MB requirements, #3 looks like a doozy to pull off. On one hand we are a larger troop (right now about 55 boys), making this requirement seem pretty impractical to do in a group setting and we don't generally do MB "classes" at troop meetings anyway. On the other hand, the requirement specifically includes a troop or patrol model flight competition. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the level of involvement (and cost!) involved here, as I'm really not into model building. Anybody do this sort of thing? Here's a link to the current MB requirements: http://usscouts.org/mb/mb025.asp 2) What are some good back-up plans if the weather is uncooperative on "flight day?" The guys are really psyched about the flying part so they'll be disappointed if it doesn't work out but if they at least have a really cool plan B I think that would help. We will be at or near a small county airport and are coordinating with a Young Eagles chapter.

I agree you need to choose your battles but at the same time, if parents are so into living Jr's life for him that they cannot let him fill out his own blue card, sheesh! Maybe you could start circumventing parental hovering on this one by handing the card and a pen directly to the scout and reminding HIM to fill it out right there on the spot, before mom/dad gets a hand on the darn thing. Or maybe there's a SM minute in here somewhere about taking responsibility for oneself, both in big matters and in small ones.

Elyria, While I understand what you are saying, I think you can achieve the same outcome without the added confusion of the boy scout lingo applied in ways that aren't quite kosher. The main worry I would have is that the way the terminology gets used might not actually reflect what happens in a troop. If that were to happen it could be a dis-service to the boys. On one hand, by adopting the terminology without the full weight of responsibility behind it some boys and their families may conclude that boy scouting is simply cub scouting with different titles, view that as boring, and decide to quit. Others might be in for a rude shock upon cross-over, when they discover that the PL and SPL and the rest of the patrol and troop actually have a lot more responsibility and work to do than is the case in their psuedo-patrol/mini troop that they came from. Smoothing the transition is really important but I suspect this is one place where form might get in the way of substance. I don't doubt that whatever you do, you'll do thoughtfully and well, based on your other posts. I hope you'll talk not only to the other Webelos leader you know who does this, but also and much more importantly, talk to the local SMs first though, because they're the ones who may have some re-education to do with these boys after they leave your den/patrol.

Elyria Leader, That sounds like a good plan for a larger group, as long as you get the support you need from the parents. Note that technically Webelos boys are *not* patrols and do not elect patrol leaders. You could, though, have them choose 3 den emblems (similar to patrol emblems) when they move from Bear-Webelos, and there is still the Denner position that could mimic the PL in some ways. If you decide to go ahead with the PL and patrol business anyway (and yes I know some folks who do that too, some successfully and some not so successfully) my word of caution would be to set it up in a way that isn't radically different from those positions in a boy scout troop - you don't want to confuse them or misrepresent what a patrol in a troop is like, to the extent you can avoid it.

Note that the worksheets are entirely optional (I'm supposing you mean the ones you can download in PDF or word doc form for most merit badges) and not all MBCs encourage them. I don't use them. Some scouts like them and certainly some parents like them though. If a scout were using the worksheets then I would expect the scout to have filled it out and not the parents or other Scouters. (Unless there's some kind of disability issue preventing the scout from recording his thoughts on his own) About Blue Cards - I expect the scout to have filled out his part of the card. I'd question why a parent was doing it, if that's the case. This isn't rocket science and parents(and Scouters) need to let go if they can't trust their kid to do this on their own.

Perhaps the other ASM is concerned that you are having too much voice and in effect crowding your son as he tries to do his job as SPL. I have seen that happen and in such circumstances I think it is better if a parent is able to step back a bit. But it isn't easy to do and (supposing this is the other ASM's motive to start with) it does sound like the person might have been a little more tactful in phrasing the request. Our PLCs currently meet in our SM's kitchen. There isn't a whole lot of room for lots of extra adults to hang out and personally I think that's fine because we do have a few adults who have a hard time letting the boys run the show, when they're around.

Just to put things into perspective for myself, I went back and looked at what our family spent on scouting in the last year. I don't think we're an unusual troop in terms of costs, except perhaps for the fact that every other year we go far away to summer camp. But here's the run-down I came up with. First there are troop dues, which cover BSA registration and a subscription to Boys Life (for youth - I get Scouter but I don't know that this is paid for out of our registration fees). That's $30 for my son and $30 for me. Our troop also charges a one-time equipment fee of $20/person but my son wasn't new to the troop in the last year so I won't count that. Running total: $60 Then there are camping fees associated with monthly troop camp outs. Most months the fee is $15/person and covers site fees, food, registration, and transportation. I go to about one camp out a year. My son goes to about 10. So for 11 "typical" camp outs the cost is $165. Running total: $225 This does not include additional fees for a couple of camp outs where more expensive activities occur - like luging at the US Olympic Track (extra $50) or dog sledding in the Upper Peninsula (extra $200) or skiing/snowboarding (extra $60-100). We don't always do these because of the cost but my son did go luging so add in $50. Running total: $275 Then there are "special" activities like our annual lock-in which costs about $15/person and I attend too because it is one of our biggest Webelos Recruiting events and I'm in charge of that for the troop. So there's $30. Or a troop night at the bowling alley or similar, on election nights when we can't get into our regular meeting location and occasionally in the summer, usually in the neighborhood of $10 each. Also a couple of district and council one-day events like district winter hike, typically 2 or 3 of these in a year costing $15 each. All together roughly another $80 for these "special" activities in a year. Running total: $355 Then summer camp, typically about $250 when you add in "extras" like cost for special projects or activities but last summer it was closer to $450 because we went halfway across country and there were added fuel, camping while traveling, and food costs. I don't typically attend, just my son. Running total: $805(for far-away summer camps)/ $605(for closer summer camps) Then new uniform pieces and under-layers for growing boy in the range of $70 (if we're frugal), plus occasional minor gear let's say another $50. Happily our troop has a good range of gear to borrow so we haven't spent much lately on big-ticket gear items. Running total: $925/$725 depending on where they go to camp that summer. This is a fairly "bare bones" assessment. It doesn't include my contributions to troop fund raisers, to the Family FOS and District FOS, and to our council's Wood Badger association. It doesn't include a variety of small "extras" that come up here and there. It doesn't include out-of-pocket expenses that we leaders all pay from time to time to make the unit program work. It doesn't include fuel cost of driving to/from events. It sure doesn't include the cost of any bigger "high adventure" activities. And probably a bunch of other little things. I don't begrudge the money we spend on scouting because I see value in what we get back. And my son does do some fund raising on his own to help defray costs. And some of the above arrive in the form of birthday/Christmas gifts. But if you want to tell me that now on top of the $725-$925 plus we're spending on scouting on an annual basis, that I should also pay a large annual council fee? And that I won't have any say over how that council money is used? And, realistically speaking, that not only won't I have much/any say, but I probably won't even know how it was used? Yeah, my inner New Yorker will probably surface! Honestly, looking at all of this, I don't know how troops in areas that aren't solidly middle class can really provide a highly active program! Unless they have access to cheap, local places to camp, the costs could easily become prohibitive very quickly, without even beginning to think about financial support of the council too. And when we price our program out of reach of less well off families then I think that is extremely myopic and sad. But it is also what I guess I see in our own district, especially once you look beyond Cub Scouting.

Yeah it is pretty exciting stuff, roots and wings indeed. Another benefit seems to be a little more group cohesion. He went with some guys who are not always known for being helpful to each other and they all ended up working together and encouraging each other rather nicely from the sound of things. Raisinemright - they hiked the Chief Pontiac Trail along the Huron River from Highland SRA to Kensington Metropark. I'm not sure what council you're in over in Holly but if you aren't familiar with this trail you should definitely check it out. You don't have to be part of Clinton Valley Council to do this trail (or even be boy scouts). The "credential hikes" for scouts 1st C and higher are especially cool although they require a lot of pre-planning. Here's a link to the CPT hiking program. Our guys are talking about maybe doing the canoe/hike this summer. http://cpt.cvc-bsa.org/

Fair to everyone, that is, except for those families who cannot afford it. And don't tell me it is merely a matter of priorities. That's always true whenever it comes to money but it is a poor explanation for why Johnny can't join cub scouts. Heck I don't think I'd be willing to pay an additional $100 per year council fee as a condition of my son being a scout. Let me choose whether (and how much) to give to FOS but don't require it. Not to mention that many people prefer to give their extra cash directly to the program, instead of to some higher level where who knows what it would be spent on (perhaps the SE goes golfing? the council builds a superfluous new HQ?)

OK now these are real stretches and not ones I'd advocate but if I were playing the "how can we twist the requirements this time?" game the only ones I could imagine would be Elec #9 (Let's have a party) - maybe the smoothies will be snacks at the party they're having? Elec #3 (Make it Yourself) option e "or make something else" but if this is it I think it horribly violates the spirit of this elective, which is all about making things with tools like bird houses, door stops, and recipe holders. On the other hand, maybe they're making smoothies because smoothies taste good and they wanted to do it? If that's the case and they aren't attempting to shoe-horn this activity into a specific arrow point elective, then that might be just fine. I hope they have more planned for the den meeting than this though, as smoothie making and drinking will take all of maybe 10 minutes at the outside.

Scholarship MB would have to be right up there with Law MB. Both fine MBs, but at camp? 'Course I feel that way about several of the Eagle-required MBs too (family life, communications, the citizenships, personal management come to mind)but that is clearly a losing battle.

Well my son got back from his first real backpacking trek tonight. He's exhausted! But it sounds like he had a lot of fun, even though the weather was lousy and his pack was a little on the heavy side. The group of boys who went decided to form a venture patrol with a focus on hiking. He's excited about the future prospects of this patrol and was selected to be the PL. (Yes I'm having a parental moment, proud of him for giving it a go) Not only that, but he told me that this was the first time (in 3+ years!) that he actually needed to be able to use most of his T-2-1 "scout skills" for real. Thanks to all for your suggestions in various threads over the last couple of months as he has been preparing. He found many of them to be useful, and I kind of expect he will pay even closer attention in the future, now that he has some experience.

I tend to agree with Beavah but I think the advice so far has not addressed the issue of those couple of boys (whom we all have met) who are not very popular and who would not be "chosen" by any of the existing patrols. There's "mildly problematic" kids who are maybe just a bit immature or socially awkward - that can be overcome - and then there are those few who are a serious pain and/or have emotional and behavioral issues, and NO ONE wants to be with them. We had a couple of boys in the latter category for a while and it really was a difficult problem. I'm not convinced we adults did everything we could to make things work either, but I do know it would have been really unfair to expect the boys to fix what we adults could not. Honestly I don't know how you handle this if you are actually going to let the boys really choose for themselves and you also don't want to lose those tough cases from your program.

I am not sure exactly what the story in your den is, but I know that when my son joined cub scouting as a wolf, I sort of expected that the people running the show knew what they were doing, that they were trained, and that they would probably have more experience/be better at being DL than I might be. It wasn't until close to the end of that first year that I understood that this was not the case, and that the DL was simply a parent who had agreed to be DL before we joined. And because the DL was a highly organized type of individual with lots of spare time to plan things, she made it look like she'd been doing this forever. During that first year I did not feel a need to step forward as a volunteer, as a result. I guess I figured if the pack needed leaders, they would find them elsewhere, rather than turning to us (untrained, inexperienced) parents. So perhaps some education of your scouts' parents is in order. Perhaps they do not understand that you are simply one among many, with (no offense meant here now) the same basic skill set as anyone else. Some of them probably think the BSA chose you. Some of them may think the pack hired you. Some of them may think they aren't skilled enough to be a DL like you. Unless you've spent time talking to them about how you became DL/CC/etc, then there's a good bet they just don't know how leaders are chosen in a BSA unit. If this is the case, a good first step is to tell them how leaders are selected in your unit.

I'm not comfortable with a fishing expedition (aka, a witch hunt). The risks of misinterpreting are very high on both sides, and additionally, asking a young man about whether he engages in a specific illegal behaviors might even have legal ramifications if the answer is "yes." I really prefer not to put a boy in such a corner. I'm more comfortable asking broad questions - "what does "clean" mean to you?" "How do you try to follow the "mentally awake" portion of the oath?" "Are there times where being "morally straight" is difficult, and what do you do in those situations?" "How have you approached the expectation that a boy scout should be "physically strong?" These all allow for a wide range of answers, including some introspection and back-and-forth discussion. And my understanding is that that's really what we're aiming for most of the time in a BOR. By the way - as an educator - I find it interesting that we tend to interpret "mentally awake" as "don't use drugs." How about, "What grade did you earn on your last math test?" "Do you push yourself to take challenging classes and study hard, or do you allow yourself to coast and daydream your way through school?" "Tell me about a good book you have read recently?" "Of your 21+ merit badges, which was the most interesting/challenging/fun/useful, and why?"

Well it is a bit of a stretch but perhaps the American Heritage MB? It isn't written specifically to focus on the old west but I can easily imagine how your knowledge might come into the discussion of various parts of requirements 2, 4, and 5 for that badge. Thank you for looking for ways to share your interests with scouts.

Bayou Beaver, I can see where you're coming from and a parents meeting is a fine thing to have. However, you may want to consider whether presenting these (up to now) uninvolved parents with a huge long list of jobs that need filling is going to net you the results you want. You may scare them off! Have you thought about talking up a couple of upcoming activities and listing specific tasks that you need to have covered in order to make those activities happen? Often people will agree to help with Task #1 when they aren't willing to take on some big position. Tap that spirit if you can. And don't forget FUN as a selling point for adults too, not just boys. Parents who volunteer and always gripe about things are not fun to be with and turn other would-be volunteers off, so make sure to maintain a cheerful outlook in your presentation - which, I know, can be tough to do when you're one of the five families that always end up doing everything.

While I wouldn't want to cover this requirement in quite such a "classroom" manner, I am also not sure whether I'd charge up the hill for this one. It may depend on just how zealous the troop leaders are in "enforcing" this expectation. Also keep in mind that probably no SM is "perfect." So if this is the one thing people aren't thrilled about, is it a big enough thing to take the risk of alienating current leaders? Is this nit picking? Or is this a big deal in terms of how the unit works and doesn't work? Can this be neatly circumvented by simply changing the way the troop program incorporates this one requirement? ("Hey Joe, I heard about this great idea for how another troop handles this requirement - how about we give it a try?") Or does it need to be a direct confrontation with the SM? These things are judgment calls which (IMO) cannot be made over the web. But they are worth considering both in answering your original question and also in figuring out what to do with that answer.

We had a 18/19 year old in our patrol when I did Wood Badge. He did a fine job and it was fun to swap experiences with him. I can also imagine how it might not be the right time for many 19 year olds though. And no matter where you are coming from right now in terms of experience, there are things you simply will see differently later because you'll have different life experiences to draw upon. Whether that's better/worse is hard to judge merely over the web without knowing you. It might also be worth considering that if there are Venturing people in your WB class, they will be especially tempted to view you as a "youth" because of your age. Can you work around that if it happens? One thing you might want to ask yourself is, what scouting role do you see yourself playing in the next 5 years? And how does going to WB fit with that role? The 19 year old in our WB patrol did a nice job with the course and all and I think he enjoyed it, but within a year he went off to college and then work, and is no longer active in scouting. He might come back to the BSA in future years but right now he's busy with other things. And in that regard, perhaps he'd have been better off waiting a few years to do WB, since it is expensive to do and kind of a shame not to put it to use in a scouting environment once you've done it. But I'd give the same general advice to any new-ish adult volunteer who asked this question. Is it worth it? Absolutely. Is now the right time? It depends on what you want to get out of it, what you plan to do with it, and whether you have the time and resources to commit to it now and in the near future (over a few years, not months).

Just out of curiosity why are you awarding trophies (presumably paid for by the pack, perhaps from pack dues or fundraisers) to non-pack members? Lose the trophy and part of this problem goes away. PWDs are chiefly for cub scouts. Any "open" races could be simply for bragging rights, without costing the pack money.

When we were involved with cubs we charged anywhere from $25 to $60 depending on the year and the pack. In the years where we charged less, the pack also paid for considerably less but set fundraising expectations higher. In the years where we charged more we paid for neckers, PWD cars, Boys Life, certain pack events, and part of day camp, and reduced fund raising expectations. There are arguments to be made in favor, or opposed to, either decision. I know some packs who charge in the neighborhood of $100 in dues but never foist popcorn or other fundraisers on already-overstressed parents. Mom and Dad just write a big check once a year. This works reasonably well if you are in an affluent neighborhood. I know some packs who charge little, expect fundraising, and help coordinate fundraising efforts at the den or pack level rather than putting the burden on individual families (whose networks may not be helpful in terms of money). This works better in lower income or mixed income neighborhoods, IMO.

I will have to check on the rank business - several people who are involved with advancement and ought to know what they're talking about in our district and council have made a big deal about "scout" becoming a bona fide "rank" in the last year or so. I am willing to believe they could be wrong, I just haven't had time (or reason, really) to check their claim on this front. At any rate I am inclined to agree that the exact difference (is it a rank, or isn't it?) isn't really that big a deal. What's more important is whether or not a troop has a solid program that provides a scout with the opportunities for advancement, if he so desires.

Personally I always prefer the hand-written "thank you" notes or just a verbal thanks, to stuff. For one thing I have too much "stuff" already and don't want more, but I feel bad about throwing things out that people have given me in sincerity. For another, more expensive items seem inappropriate to me. I don't volunteer to be rewarded with valuable items, all-expenses-paid vacations, etc. and I would actually be very uncomfortable being on the receiving end, knowing that the money could have been better spent elsewhere. But perhaps that's just me. If you are looking for tangible items to use as thank yous, there are a host of very inexpensive types of things like the "Top Banana" award (a plastic banana with "tops" written on it), the Big Hand award (a foamy hand cut-out mounted on a good stiff piece of cardboard or wood), etc.. Somewhere I found a whole list of these online one time - try googling "adult leader awards" and the like. Cute, cheap, not guilt-inducing.