Lisabob

Actually Bob, I believe that this has changed in recent years, and that "Scout" is now considered the first official rank in boy scouting. I can't provide a citation off the top of my head for this though - others can help out here? I am in agreement with those who say that earning AoL does not equate with automatically handing a kid a Scout badge. Even if the kids did all of the AoL requirements, I still think that there's benefit in doing them in the troop right at the start of their boy scouting careers. For one thing it can provide a bit of a bonding opportunity for new scouts. For another it helps introduce new scouts to how things are done in the troop. And for a third, a brand new scout who is nervous about whether he can "do" boy scouting will get a huge boost out of earning that first badge very early on. I understand Oak's take on "seamless transition" but I kind of think earning the badge as a bona-fide boy scout actually helps make that transition more seamless. It just sets a boy off on the right footing IMO. Philosophical difference I guess.

The notion of a group of adults questioning a child about his sexuality seems extreme. As a parent I would probably go ballistic on all involved if/when I heard about it, no matter what the outcome of the BOR. Other issues I would not generally expect people to ask about in a BOR: "do you use illegal drugs/alcohol/cigarettes?" Since no scout in their right mind is likely to say "yes" it isn't a very useful question. However if they did say "yes" then you have just succeeded in placing a scout in a legally compromising position, which I can't imagine most BOR members have any desire to do. If you want to know whether the scout makes moral and ethical choices or keeps himself "phyisically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight" then there are better ways to ask. My son and I were talking about the religious aspect of the BSA just yesterday as I drove him to scouts and he was nervously preparing for a BOR (not Eagle). Faith is a difficult thing for many adults to discuss with close friends and family, let alone for kids to discuss with (in some cases on an Eagle BOR) a whole gang of complete strangers. My advice to him was that the BOR might legitimately ask him his views about reverence and duty as they are included in the scout law and oath, but that it was highly unlikely that the BOR would ask him to defend specific tenets of his faith. The inquisition this is not. And in the BSA's view there is no single "right" answer to BOR questions about faith. Also, my son being a flippant teen ager, he probably would have answered a direct question that he considered too personal with some sort of smart alecky response question (I can imagine it now: Mr Smith: "Scout, do you believe in ___ (insert your deity here)?" My son: "Hmm, well can you define what you mean by ___ Mr. Smith?" An hour later...)

About poor attendance - Our district's spring camporee is sometimes scheduled pretty late in the game, after many troops have set their annual calendars and already have a camp out planned for that month. Units often worry about scheduling conflicting events and/or having two camp outs in one month because it draws down attendance from one or both camp outs and puts additional strain on adult leaders to support two events in one month. So a lot of times unit participation in district camporees isn't great. This year, my son saw a flier for the upcoming camporee, which his troop had not planned to attend. The theme - siege of Mafeking - sounds really exciting to him and he wants to go. But the troop isn't attending since they already have another (also high-interest) camp out scheduled that month (not the same weekend). My son is trying to drum up patrol interest, but most of the other boys in the patrol do NOT want to attend 2 campouts and give up 2 weekends that month. So they choose one or the other and they mostly all will choose the troop camp out. Now my son is willing to do both but he needs guys to go with. His options are either a) give up and skip the camporee or b) cobble together a temporary patrol of boys from throughout the troop who also want to attend. Given the options, while I'm not thrilled to death with temp. patrols and I understand jblake's concern, I'd rather he do that than not attend at all. So there's a short-term and a long-term issue here. In the long term, I would like to see better planning of district events so troops know when they'll be and can include them in the annual planning process. On the other hand, much of what I see happening in scouting as a by product of being volunteer-driven is short-term in focus. And so we make short-term decisions on an on-going basis because the long-term problem never gets addressed or resolved. That's frustrating.

Bayou Beaver, you won't find much through a web search because there isn't a Board of Review for AOL. I have never heard of anybody doing this, either. Now there's nothing wrong with the den leader sitting down and talking with boys about what they like/don't like about cub scouting, but let's not take boy scout terminology (Board of Review) and apply it (incorrectly) to a cub scout program. In short, the SM who asked you this is a little bit off "true north." The only remaining question is how you'll let him know. Personally I go for the straightforward approach "No, we aren't going to have a BOR for our Arrow of Light candidates because that's not part of the Cub Scouting process." The SM may not know the Cub program, or he may have forgotten, or he may be in la-la land. A friendly reminder/education from you should be all he needs.

Just to throw a wrench in the works, on occasion I have known boys who earned their AOL very early in their 5th grade year and didn't cross over into a troop for several months. For those who make an argument that the AOL and Scout badge requirements can be completed simultaneously, would you still advocate that position even in this case? In your view, does the overlap only apply if the kids follow what is probably more "typical" and earn their AOL at the very end of their cub scouting career, within days of crossing over?

The problem with camp out, as was mentioned by people in another thread, could be resolved in the future by having a firm deadline so you aren't chasing people around for money (which is never fun). OK so the real question is, why isn't she more active? This is a hard one to answer if you don't know her very well. One option might be that she really isn't all that interested in the program, and given that she doesn't return phone calls, etc., as you have described elsewhere, this may very well be the case. Some people don't want to tell you to your face that they aren't very committed but instead will simply be unavailable. Another option is that she is struggling to stay afloat and doesn't have a lot of spare resources (time, energy, concentration - not just cash) to devote to scouts. You mention elsewhere she has several kids and I think I remember that perhaps "dad" isn't a big part of the picture. Maybe she's barely above water and simply doesn't have anything else to devote to this endeavor. OR imagining further, maybe she has such a hard time committing time to the pack because other people in her life make shifting demands on her time. Again, not saying this IS the case for her, but I have known women who felt they could not commit to anything outside the home without their husband/boyfriend's explicit approval, which was then granted/withdrawn/granted/withdrawn as a power game. The result was that these women seemed to be ungrateful and uninterested in the effect their lack of communication and commitment was having on others, and yet what was really going on was they were trying to navigate the maze of an abusive relationship under very difficult conditions. So sometimes it is really hard to tell, from the outside, what is motivating people to behave in the ways they do and it can be easy to assume they are just rude or uninterested. Of course it is impossible to make these kinds of judgments over the internet and sometimes almost as hard to make them (correctly, anyway) in a "live" setting, unless you know the person pretty well. But I can imagine situations where any of the above might be true and so I guess I'm advocating for people in general (not just you SctDad in this specific case) to take a step back before making that judgment based on participation. But at the end of the day, someone who the parent reacts well to needs to ask them if they are planning to keep their child in scouting next year, and to mention that the pack would really like to help make that happen. If the parent says yes then personally I'd do whatever was needed to make it happen. If the parent says no or never responds then there's little you can do no matter what the reason for lack of response.

Macy, Congratulations to your son. One of the great values I see in scouting (speaking as a parent here) is that it pushes boys to really think about ethical and moral issues, about "right" and "wrong," and about what they believe. And it mostly happens "by stealth" while they're out having fun camping and doing other activities! This is real growth we're talking about and it can be a little daunting or surprising when we come face to face with it on occasion, like in a BOR. But like I said, as a parent I am really happy that scouting gives my son a context in which to think about these sorts of issues and to see that other people struggle with the same issues too. Again, congrats to your son - Eagle is quite an accomplishment and you must be very proud of him.

Hi Macy, Welcome to the forum. Based on the way you framed the question in your post, I'm guessing you might be the parent or relative of a scout who was asked this at his Eagle BOR? If so, I can imagine how it might surprise many people that this is acceptable in a scouting context, because many boy scout troops tread very lightly on the religious aspect of scouting (that is to say, they basically ignore it). However, if you look at the Scout Oath and Scout Law (which any Eagle candidate should be *extremely* familiar with), you will find that both of these include an explicit religious component. Consequently, yes it is acceptable to ask scouts what that religious component means to them. Note though, that the BSA does not support any particular religion and that a scout could assert a very wide array of beliefs, including those that do not include an organized church/religious institution, and still fit within the "boundaries" of the BSA's views on religion. What others have said about the religious aspect of scouting is correct. And click123 is also correct to point out that "separation of church and state" applies only to government entities, which BSA is not. I hope you find this helpful.

According to a friend who does this - the beer will act as a bit of a tenderizer but nothing much will change if you leave it out.

THat does sound like a long day and, having run both all-day affairs and short-and-sweet races, I know that I'm exhausted after a whole day of derby. So I'd have preferred to do all the cub racing up front. Plus, some folks really are not interested in watching adults race each other. This is CUB scouting, not PARENT scouting! But as someone else said, you should do what works for you and since you say things went fairly well, I also wouldn't lose a whole lot of sleep over this one. At least no one was throwing punches - that's when you worry!

About the participation, again I think it depends a lot on individual circumstances. We have had a few families where parents were not at all active and it can be easy to suppose that this is due to a lack of interest or a desire to get a hand-out or something like that. And in some cases it might even be true. On the other hand, maybe they have a heavy burden of family obligations, are working two or three jobs to make ends meet, or don't have a car (or can't afford the gas these days!). People who are struggling to get by also don't always want to share the details and sometimes retreat, rather than have to set aside their pride and tell all. So sure, participation in fundraisers, etc., might be a worthy consideration, but on the other hand, don't assume you know for sure what people's attitudes about scouting are and don't judge them based on that criteria alone. Scouting should be an option for every boy, not just for those from comfortable and stable middle class/upper middle class backgrounds (not saying anybody here said that! Just pointing it out is all)

This is one of those places where I think having a written policy doesn't make sense. Too many variables that might enter into the picture from one family to another. It is seldom a good idea to write policy based on one experience as, once written, these types of things tend to take on a life of their own.

Hmm. Noting that the internet is not always the best place to find mentors is one of the few things Bob and I appear to agree upon in this thread. So let me just make real clear for you Bob that I am not seeking your mentorship. Perhaps now, secure in that knowledge, you will be relieved of the terrible burden you apparently feel to bludgeon people left and right with what you think you know.

I'm not sure I would say they need to be limited to earning the loops one time. I remember that my son earned the science beltloop as a wolf in 2nd grade and again later as a webelos II in 5th grade. Truly it was two completely different experiences because he was capable of a great deal more in 5th grade than in 2nd. (he went on to earn the pin too) And the way the webelos pins are set up, some of them allow a very wide range of loops to "count" toward the webelos activity pins. For example, for the "sportsman" pin, I remember that there were probably 12 or 14 different beltloop options. It would be a shame to tell younger cubs that they couldn't earn any of those until they became webelos scouts. What I do think though, is that there could be a lot better TRAINING for Wolf and Bear leaders regarding how the loops are utilized in the webelos program so that this aspect doesn't take them by surprise.

20 degree water? I wasn't a science major but I do believe they call that "ice." At least, up here in the frozen north they do. Personally I would wait a while. As others have said, hypothermia can set in surprisingly quickly when you're talking about really cold water and 50-60 degree air, especially if there's a breeze. And reality is that with a group of inexperienced people you WILL get wet even if you don't capsize. By the way, in a deep river you should know what to do with a canoe that has capsized/gets swamped and maybe practice it a time or two before you go out for real. At the very least, do some reading about hypothermia, symptoms, and what to do about it before you go (try the swimming or canoing merit badge books, or the first aid one). Otherwise we'll all be worrying about you! And seriously, what's stopping you folks from starting a Venturing crew? Maybe find out what the local BSA council in your area is and call them up. You can do all of the things you've posted so far - hiking, backpacking, canoing, as part of the BSA and get access to all kinds of resources to help you improve your skills along the way.

Do note though GW (and others) that some of the beltloops are either required, or are options, for part of the webelos activity pins. In those cases, the webelos book is crystal clear that a boy must earn, or re-earn, the beltloop **as a webelos scout** in order for it to count toward webelos advancement. In this case it is not "adding to the requirements" to tell a boy that even if he earned it as a bear, he has to earn it again if he wants it to count toward a webelos pin. And incidentally, it is a good idea for bear leaders to look ahead a little bit so that they're not duplicating something at this time of year that the boys are going to need to do again in Sept. as webelos. In our pack the tradition was to acknowledge that the boy had re-earned a beltloop as part of earning his webelos pins, but we did not pay for the duplicate beltloop. Instead we used the small (and much cheaper) "rocker" segments that they could put on the red vests. This seemed to work well for all involved.

Let her blame you if it comes to that. You, and probably everybody else, will know that's just silliness. You've done what you could to contact her and she did not follow through. Oh well. And don't be surprised if you lose this scout over the summer - by them not coming to meetings and not returning calls they are signaling (pretty clearly) that they aren't interested in the program. About the only thing I'd suggest is to make sure you have enough food on hand that if a couple of unexpected "guests" show up, nobody goes hungry. I'm kind of doubtful this parent will bother to attend based on what you wrote, but who knows who else a family might drag along at the last minute. It happens. Have fun this weekend.

OneHour, Sorry to hear you feel that way. I think a lot of people go through that, though in greater or lesser degrees and for different reasons. Maybe one thing to do is find some small little thing that you enjoy doing, unrelated to the troop, and just do that one little thing. For example, maybe you really like archery and would enjoy taking a couple of days to help with the cub day camp archery range this summer. Or maybe you enjoy sharing your dutch oven skills with others and you want to do a little cooking at (or for) an upcoming Round Table. It doesn't have to be with or about your own son or his troop; there are lots of folks who will be delighted to benefit from your knowledge. But, if you want to do more with your son, ask him to do some outdoor activity with you that you both enjoy, maybe inviting a friend or two of his along. It doesn't have to be "for scouts," it can be "for fun." Maybe just spending time outdoors with a couple of kids whose company you enjoy will help you rekindle your spark for scouting. After all that's what drew most people into scouting to start with - not the day-to-day administrative and organizational hassles of running a unit or the stress-inducing need to manage badly behaved adults. I hope you find it, whatever "it" may be for you.

Good point Tim! My struggle is, How on earth am I supposed to identify these people??? If they have a kid in the program then that's one thing and either they are likely already unit leaders, or their unit leaders might be able to help me extend my network by pointing those people in my direction. But if they are not currently affiliated with the BSA either personally or through their child(ren) and I don't already know them, how would I ever find them? This isn't directed at any one poster - I am just frustrated sometimes, that there isn't a better system in place for reaching out to the local community. Our council does not support this, although from time to time they ask/push/browbeat us into trying to make it work anyway. And to be perfectly honest I do not have the time to build such a system, nor do I have the community connections to make it work based on my personal network. And I think that's true of most volunteers. Just venting, that's all. Thanks.

Sorry Schiff, no I do not think you were being nasty. As for the newly minted WB'er who got upset - well - they probably would have had a fit about it (or about something else, if it hadn't been that) regardless of their WB status. (Heck, we all know that sort, who attempt to "pull rank" using whatever tool they think will work. Some people are mistaken and believe that somehow having done WB makes them morally superior to others. Thankfully these types are few and far between, in my experience.) Sad commentary on that person, but I'm not sure I'd blame the Wood Badge curriculum for it. Same as in Joni's situation - WB or not, people who want to be obnoxious are more than likely going to be obnoxious!

Err yeah Schiff, I know plenty of Wood Badgers and I have yet to hear a single one of them rant about any of the items you mention. Nor can I imagine what WB would have to do with it, if they did rant. Reality is that some people don't care much for the WB course, either the "old" one or the "new" one, or both. That's fine. No point (as far as I can see) in beating others over the head with it though. Or being downright nasty about it as some posters tend to be (very scout-like behavior there). Like any course, there are those who benefit from it and those who don't. Among the latter category one will probably find that these folks didn't really want to be there in the first place more often than not.

The Midwest is a big area. Where did you have in mind? We had a couple of folks attend Sea Badge in our council last summer and perhaps they'd be interested. I'll certainly pass on any info that you have to them. What I like/don't like about UoS: 1) I like classes where the presenter(s) had prepared well in advance and had some hands-on things to do/try and take back to the unit. 2) I like classes where leaders can try new skills or develop existing skills. It is one thing to offer a class on how to TEACH knots (or fill in skill X here). It is another thing to offer a class on how to tie knots to start with, along with why and when to use them. Lots of adult leaders these days don't have those basic skills if they weren't boy scouts as youth, themselves. 3) I like classes where interaction among participants/presenters is built in, rather than "sit and listen while I expound" types of courses. 4) I also like classes where an outside resource that many units wouldn't have access to is brought in. For example we had a class on working with scouts with emotional/behavioral disorders where several experts came in to talk with us. Very, very helpful. 4) I DON'T like paying big registration fees and driving to the far end of the council to attend an event that isn't well organized, where classes are either canceled without warning or are over-stuffed with more people than the instructor expected, or where the instructors were pulled in off the street the night before and therefore aren't prepared. Please don't waste people's time. 5) As a cub leader, I didn't like having some classes taught be people who hadn't been affiliated with the cub program in a long time and weren't current on updated program aspects. They tended to give wrong or outdated info, and also to be adamant that it was right/current. I've heard Venturing people say the same thing on their end. Choose your instructors with care and an eye toward competence, not toward filling gaps with warm bodies. 6) I didn't like classes that were supposed to help build skill in some hands-on manner, but instead were all lecture format ("watch me do this" or "listen to me tell you how to do this," rather than "try this yourself.") One more thing is that I'd rather have classes that take 2 or even 3 hours and really have a chance to do/try/learn, rather than have a whole bunch of 45 minute classes where there's not time to do justice to the skill or material in question. Short classes are ok for some things but there seems to be a temptation to squeeze everything in to an hour or less which becomes counter-productive. (Dutch oven cooking, for example!) This is where I found the "watch me while I do this" instructional mentality taking over.

err, where's okoboji?

emb, first off THANK YOU for volunteering. You are right that it there must be others "out there" like you who are willing and very capable, and who would be great assets to the district and council. My problem is that I don't know how to find people "like you." Nobody is dropping off business cards around here and saying, hey pick me. Or if they are, whoever is on the receiving end at council sure isn't sharing that info. The people I know in my community (bedroom community where everybody works elsewhere, comes home and goes to sleep) are mostly already involved. In fact that is one reason for being in scouts, to help make deeper connections to the community, and while it works, the people one tends to meet are...also involved in scouts already! Conversely the people I know from other venues like work, do not live anywhere near here. So it comes down to personal recruiting and I find that my "pool" is made up primarily of people who are already involved in scouting. And while I suppose I could do the equivalent of "cold calling" local business folks, I don't think this is either efficient or productive. If half of the district committee chairs went and did this then many business folks would be getting hit up at random by several different people! That would be annoying. Not to mention the part about having a day job and cold calling business owners is a very time-consuming proposition for pretty limited pay back. Bottom line: we get told to "go out and find volunteers" but we have very few resources other than personal ones, which may be stretched thin, with which to do this. Or anyway that's what I am facing. Maybe it is different for folks in other places where everybody knows everybody and people don't transplant every few years.

What rkfrance describes in the post I spun off from is just about exactly where our district is right now too. It is a little overwhelming. We get told not to cannibalize existing unit volunteers and (as a victim of that cannibalization myself) I get that. But reality is, that's where you find people who are interested and willing to help! I kind of find myself wondering sometimes about the disconnect between the ideal and the real world when we talk in scouting circles about adult recruitment. As for me, my goal in the next two months is to broaden our district membership committee from 4 active people (3 from the same troop + 1 UC from another part of the district) to 7 active people with at least a couple of current or recent cub folks included.