Lisabob

It is easy to assume too much in this situation. I too, know a couple of young men who have earned Eagle and either chose not to have a COH, or who had it a really long time later due to school and other scheduling issues. If it is important to the scout then sure, helping plan one is great. If it isn't high on the scout's priority list or if the scout has it on his list but just not right now, then that's his and his family's choice, even if it doesn't make you happy. (By the way, the scout I know who didn't want an ECOH, asked simply to be recognized along with his peers at a regular COH. I think he was mentally "done" with scouts some time before this and we seldom see him these days as his busy life has taken him off in other directions. Knowing that, I suspect he'd have been profoundly uncomfortable as the protracted center of attention at a special COH all about him.)

Since you're talking about college-age people (right, not your middle school group?) I'll just add that drinking while on the river is probably not the smartest thing to do, even less so if you don't know the river real well, expect to fall in, have a group of inexperienced canoeists, and the water is cold. And even, even less so if you have to drive anywhere afterward. I know some people who seem to think that the only way to canoe is drunker than a skunk, but I confess I don't get that mentality and wouldn't want to go with those folks. Also, if you think you're likely to get soaked, some dry clothes in a dry bag (or at least in a ziploc), or in your car waiting at the take-out point may be very, very welcome. I don't know how warm it is where you are but even in the mid 60s, which feels like summer right now while you're dry, a bit of a breeze and wet cotton clothes can make you pretty miserable. From the Youtube video I think it is pretty hard to tell what the river is like. Rivers often look more placid than they actually are. You might be better off stopping by a local outdoor store, or an outdoor club, or the place where you'll rent the canoes, and asking their advice. If there are places to be extra careful or straight-out avoid, they'll probably know. Sometimes you can find river reports online from area clubs and enthusiasts too. I know when I did a little (fairly basic) canoeing in OH last summer, I found not only some useful reports, but also a state DNR guide to where the small dams are located. That was very helpful and also explained why even very small dams can be dangerous in some circumstances (the canoeing MB book does too, I'm pretty sure). Have fun and stay safe!

Thanks John, PM received and I agree with your assessment. Something Eamonn said gave me pause and I'd love to hear what folks think about the ups and downs of this approach so that I can learn from your experiences. To quote the Great E ( ) : "In fact as I think about it I more than lightly would let him know during the first interview that he wasn't doing a very good job and wasn't doing much to help himself. Maybe going as far as to ask him to leave the room for a moment and restarting everything again! " Have you tried this? Did it work? Are there situations where you wouldn't want to do this and might expect it to backfire? I think if I were a still teen and a group of adults did this to me, I'd have been rather intimidated. For that matter, for those who have postponed a BOR without advancement, do you typically set up a new BOR with different people for the scout on the next go-round, or do you typically expect to re-convene the BOR with the same people?

Eamonn, To clarify, this wasn't an Eagle BOR. In fact one of my concerns is that if we don't make clear to boys what the expectations are at the lower level BORs (especially star and life) then they'll end up being blindsided at an Eagle Board. And there, I think, it is really far too late. At that point I think it would be fair to say the scout had been failed by his adult leaders' unwillingness to help guide him down a better path, earlier in his career. I'd have preferred not to have any BOR be the place this guidance occurs - far better, if it occurs long before the scout gets to a BOR - but that's what happened. Thanks for your input. I hope that this will be an extremely rare situation (has been so far, I have no reason to expect otherwise going forward), but many of you have given me helpful things to think about for the future.

Bob you are making some incorrect assumptions. I (rather pointedly, I thought) decline to post some details and you assume that this means we didn't follow procedures. In fact the adults in this situation are well aware of the requirements and the scout in question was given a set of specific expectations or remedies, both verbally and to follow, in writing. The advancement chair, committee chair, and SM are also included in the loop. I'm not going to post the specifics and your badgering isn't going to get me to do so either, but that does not mean you are correct in your assumptions. It would be more helpful - to me, and probably to others too - if, rather than attempting to play "gotcha" here on this forum, you used a different approach in sharing your knowledge.

Yes it is possible that the BOR members don't ask good questions and/or that they failed to put a scout at ease. Having been there, having been trained, having had some experience with BORs, I would say this was not the case in this particular situation. You can dispute that, but then again you weren't there. Beyond the particular scout in question - how do you folks deal with a scout who is capable but apparently just not willing to provide answers to reasonable questions? Shrugs, grunts, and "don't knows" aren't much for a BOR to go on. Sometimes it seems like pulling teeth! Is there a point where you tell a scout "enough" and adjourn for another time or do you just let it slide? It's one thing if it is a young fellow who isn't familiar with the troop, the leaders, the process, etc. but it is another when it is an older scout who knows the people, the process, and the expectations but just seems uninterested in participating. I've met a few who fit this description. From what Bob has written it sounds as though he'd say the BOR should sign off anyway. I can't bring myself to that conclusion. I don't agree with very much that President Bush says, but he had a line in a state of the union speech a couple years ago about the "soft bigotry of low expectations" and that, I think, was exactly on the mark.

Plenty of people use the internet these days Bob and my intent here is certainly not to tell tales out of a BOR that might embarrass this young man if someone from our troop, or a nearby troop, were to read them and recognize him. So no, I'm not going to post lots of details and yes, I was venting a little frustration in my original post rather than looking to be critiqued or nit-picked (though, "feedback is a gift" and I'll accept that). Here though, I am really interested in hearing how others deal with this: One point of frustration/exasperation I've occasionally had with BORs, especially for older/higher rank scouts: How can you make any sort of BOR conclusion when you can't get a scout to answer questions about his experiences to date? Mumbled, mono-syllabic answers that don't indicate any kind of thought, or "don't know" answers without a willingness to elaborate, leave the BOR with very little to go on, even after attempting to draw out a scout. I'm not talking about occasional shyness, nervousness, etc. - I'm talking about a general unwillingness to respond that seems more common among some older teens (and I guess we've all seen this once or twice in our lives). Even more generally I think we have yet another catch-22. If troops allow boys to slide through at the very lowest level all the way to LIFE, then when they become Eagle candidates, we have lots of belly aching going on about the poor quality of Eagle scouts these days, blah blah blah. At that point if a boy really isn't able or willing to answer questions to the satisfaction of the Eagle BOR, then he may be denied rank, but it will likely be over-ridden by higher powers, leaving EVERYONE with a bad taste about the process. This outcome is something I truly hope to avoid with any boy. But if it happens, it would be our own fault for not a) having a higher standard to begin with and b) changing the standards as the boy goes along and c) not providing the boy with a quality experience from which he grows through out his scouting career. In other words, although I can understand some responses, I hardly think it makes one a "scoundrel" to wish to avoid setting up a boy for failure at his Eagle BOR.

Yeah there Kudu, no need to be gentle with your comments, tell us how you really feel. (but c'mon, "den mommies??" gimme a break. And go run those den meetings yourself if you don't think we women are doing it the right way. But last I checked, without lots of involved moms, there wouldn't be very many packs in existence. Maybe think about that before you go insulting us. And FWIW I know a lot of excellent women leaders of troops and crews as well.)

I'd really rather not go into great detail but suffice it to say that for Star, Life, and Eagle, it would be best if a scout could at least try to articulate an answer beyond a shrug and "dunno" when asked basic questions (and prompted for more complete answers). The few topics on which he did have something to say suggested a pretty poor attitude as his responses were mainly about the things he didn't want to do and ways he didn't want to help. He's a kid who has come a long way but attitude has often been an issue for him in the past as well. The procedures were followed and everything was done by the book. Not fun though.

Sigh. Just sat on a BOR tonight where we told the scout, "not yet." That's the first time for me. Not Fun.

Unless you're talking about hurricanes and floods, a little rain (and 40% chance isn't that high) isn't the worst thing. Just maybe throw a couple of extra dry items into the trunk of the car for "just in case" emergencies. Wet sleeping bags aren't fun for anybody, let alone for little cubs on their first big camp out.

eisley I think almost anyone in NY who pays any attention at all to politics can identify Mr Spitzer's party. He has hardly made a secret of his party, or of his apparent ambitions, in the past. Now outside of NY, he is less well-known. But also outside of NY few people care what party he is from. The media dwells on these types of stories for the "sex sells, scandal sells, and sex-scandals sell through the roof" aspect, not for the sober political analysis aspect.

Yes FScouter, the gov't does indeed selectively choose which groups are allowed to have a special plate; it requires an act of the state legislature in most cases to do this. Last I checked, I could not just tell the local office that issues plates that I want my plate to have a cute little logo of my design, advertizing my private group, on my license plate (much less, that I want CASH from any additional plates of this design that are sold to the public). We are all talking about the standard, official plates right, and not the true "vanity" plates that go on the front of cars in states where no official plates are required on the front? City bus advertizing is a little different in that groups pay the city bus company to place the ads and advertizing in general is not a gov't monopoly, rather than the gov't paying private groups a portion of the fees collected for a mandatory service (if you want to drive) over which the gov't has complete control. But, I agree with your general sentiment that govt-issued vanity plates are pretty much a waste of resources!

A couple of questions to start with: 1) Where are you going to go, in relation to where your group typically meets, and how will you get the kids there? Are you counting on parents to get them there? 2) What shape are these kids in? CAN they all do a 5 mile hike? Even 2 miles of moderate hiking might be a lot if they're sedentary couch potatoes. (Note that asthma rates are much higher in inner city populations too). Keep in mind that the pace at which you can hike on your own may be a lot faster than what they can manage if they're not fit. 3) What is the purpose of this hike? To get them out of the city? To enjoy nature? To teach them outdoor skills? To teach them teamwork? Something else? The type of hike and your preparations for it may differ depending on your goal. 4) Where ever you live, consider the weather at this time of year. Trails are either muddy or covered with compacted snow/ice in many places. As it thaws you have washed-out areas. My son went on a hike last weekend and he and his leaders came back soaked and exhausted. They're well-trained and like hiking but the weather just wasn't cooperative. It might have been a miserable experience for a first-time hiker. 5) What sort of attire will these kids show up wearing? Inner city kids in programs like yours may not own appropriate outdoor gear, and/or may not wear it. If they show up wearing flip flops or crocs, all cotton jeans/socks and no jacket (entirely possible!) what are you going to do with them? 6) What will you do if somebody twists an ankle (or breaks something) and can't walk back? Are you prepared to deal with that? Cell phones for emergencies are great and all, but they don't work everywhere, especially in the woods. Short hikes in well-traveled areas are hardly rocket science and you don't need degrees in outdoor education to have a fun day hike. But there are plenty of things to think about in advance, especially since this experience may be totally foreign for the kids you are leading and you want it to be a good one for them.

The plate itself is a gov't-issued document of sorts and since the gov't has a monopoly on issuing plates (legal ones anyway) then yes, it is a government matter. So when we start allowing private groups (even ones I like) to benefit both indirectly through added publicity and the appearance of gov't support, and directly through kick-backs then I think that's an issue. The fact that we don't allow most private groups to do this adds another dimension to this. Why would gov't allow some private groups to have a special plate, and not others? I can think of several answers to this and each one raises more questions than it resolves.

I'd ask somebody, especially if this is a kid you know fairly well who is suddenly acting different from his "normal" self. It could be hormones. It could be school, or family, or friends, or his patrol mates. It could be nothing at all and he just felt like whacking at stuff (though - with his pocket knife?? maybe another conversation about totin' chit expectations to be had there). Worst case scenario is you ask him and/or his mom and he/she is bewildered by your question. While there's a chance that asking may cause some temporary resentment, there's at least as good a chance that he'll be grateful to know that someone is paying attention, or he'll be happy to have someone he can vent with fairly safely, or there's even a chance that you asking will prevent something much worse from happening if he's having a really bad time of it. So yeah, I'd ask. Good luck with it.

Gold Winger's advice about joining a local hiking club or a BSA Venturing Crew is really good. If you are near a university or college, lots of those have outdoor clubs that are open to the local community. Outfitter/outdoor-oriented stores can probably also provide contact info for local groups. Let me add that if you are looking for a fairly simple and straightforward resource, you might check out the BSA merit badge handbooks for hiking and backpacking. They are designed to be accessible to kids ages 11-17 so they're manageable, yet I have found them to be full of good info and well worth the $3.50. Have fun!

Pack, No, you didn't miss it in the initial bill. Scotteng mentioned that in his area (tampa bay area), a county-issued scouting vanity plate provided revenue of $20/tag to the local council. That would bother me, as it is a gov't function to provide plates, and in this case, is directly resulting in monetary gain for a non-gov't, private club - even though I happen to think the private club in question has a great program. But gov't funding of private religious clubs with exclusive membership policies seems pretty political to me, and probably not defensible if push comes to shove. As far as I'm aware, other plates (say for state universities or research endeavors) end up channeling the money to PUBLIC (read: "government") entities. My State U is part of the gov't; the BSA is not. I didn't intend to sidetrack us here - but this is exactly the sort of envelope-pushing issue that I think your initial post raises.

Hi and welcome. Well what you describe could be "politics" of sorts (maybe there are some issues you didn't know about, and you inadvertently stepped in something nasty). OR it might be burn-out. Maybe some of these leaders see your list of "great ideas" as "more work" for them! Small packs in particular are prone to this because there are fewer adults to share the load. Even large packs often end up relying on a fairly small core of people to get things done, and that core tends to be 2-3 people in small packs. And maybe they've had people show up, propose a bunch of new stuff, and then drop all the work in their laps, in the past. Not saying that the response you got was an appropriate one; in fact, it is rather sad. But understanding where they're coming from will help you regroup and re-focus more effectively for the next effort. If tigers make up half the pack then you (tiger parents, not just you) have an opportunity to reshape things fairly dramatically and fairly quickly. Just step up, en masse, to become leaders. Then you'll find you have a lot more support for your great ideas. Also help recruit another enthusiastic group of new tigers for next year, and between your 7-8 wolf families and the 7-10 new tiger families, you'll be the overwhelming majority of the pack. Good luck, keep thinking positive thoughts, and have fun with your Tiger Cub!

Yeah but Ed, I haven't been impressed with the classroom nature of those badges at the summer camps I've seen. Now doing those badges as part of a real project, that would be way cool and the boys would probably learn a whole lot more too. As for the political aspect - there's a lot to be said about learning the process for voicing opinions. And there's no need for people who also happen to be scouts, to be thoroughly apolitical. Reality is that people who support scouting have to be able to speak up for scouting in a political realm sometimes, because otherwise we're hamstringing our own, best, advocates. However, I would prefer to see the DE's pitch be made to adults only rather than to youth. Adults are better positioned to decide for themselves what the potential conflicts and other sides of "the story" may exist, than are youth. It is all too easy to convince youth that "this is the only way to see things." And about the license plates - if scouts gain a monetary benefit of $20 per plate (as one poster mentions) then they most certainly are benefiting directly from a gov't-issued license plate. Very few PRIVATE groups have that luxury and I'm really not sure I like that idea at all - existing specialty plates tend to support gov't functions like education or natural resource conservation/clean-up. Are people willing to allow specialty plates for other private entities? How about an ACLU plate where they get $20 per plate? Nope, didn't think so...

What I meant was that he is registered as an ASM but is not actually serving as one, since he's seldom there to do so. I think the idea was to keep him on the roster as a scouter after he turned 18. Anyway, I'm not opposed to either of these guys being present in uniform as visitors. I think they are both great role models for our younger scouts, who "knew them when." And I would never want to make them feel uncomfortable or out of place for visiting. I merely wondered how others would view it, is all. So thanks folks, for your views.

Then you decide whether or not this is the troop for you. Perhaps there is something redeeming about the troop (they have a great program that emphasizes the other methods of scouting). Perhaps your son absolutely loves the troop and would be seriously hurt by his parent yanking him out. Perhaps there's a realistic option that when cool heads prevail, a calm and quiet chat with the CC, SM, and COR will help set things right. Perhaps the SM is planning to step down soon and you can manage to stay cool until that time. Perhaps it is the right troop for your boy but not for you, and so you graciously step to the side and let your boy enjoy scouting without dealing with the blood-pressure-raising annoyances, yourself. Or, perhaps none of the above, you can't stand it any longer, and you find another troop to serve instead. But still don't burn your bridges.

Pack's first suggestion could be an amazing opportunity for the camp to offer some different MB options (environmental science, soil and water conservation, etc.) this summer. Yes yes I know, having helped run various camps, that a waterfront is a highly desirable commodity. But you know what? You have to make some trade offs. And I have worked at camps where swimming and boating were not options and somehow the kids still had a great time.

Ouch Joni. Sounds to me like you've about reached your frustration point with your troop. Have you thought about stepping back a little bit and re-charging your batteries? Or maybe finding another place besides at the unit-level to serve? I know some people who have enormous talent and energy and just need a different outlet for that energy than they can find at the unit level (especially with troops). Honestly I doubt you'll find many of "those kind" of WB'ers on this forum. Most of the regular posters here strike me as the type who are a) very dedicated and b) very excited about scouting. I have met a few Wood Badge-trained people about whom I've wondered, "why are they in scouting?" But they are few and far between and I bet they were like that before they went to WB too. At the end of the day people tend to conform to their unit's culture. The current WB course is 6 days long. That's often enough to get people out of a rut for a short while (if they've been in one) but if they go right back to a whole group of tired folks who are still in the rut then they'll probably end up there again too before long. Hang in there Joni and don't let this stuff get you down!

Joni, that rarely happens for us (we have 65 boys in the troop right now). But if the PL won't be there, he has an APL who is expected to serve in his place. If neither of them will be there, the patrol typically decides who will be "acting PL" prior to the camp out. I guess if we had just the SPL and 3-5 random boys then it depends - are any of these boys from the same patrol? If so, let them act as a patrol even though they're small, and put the others together in a temp. patrol so no boy is by himself. If none of the boys in attendance are from the same patrol then I suppose it might make sense to treat them all as one patrol for the weekend, with the SPL acting as PL if none of the actual PLs or APLs were there. And later I'd want to ask why attendance was so low. One of my pet peeves though, is when a patrol has 3 or 4 boys attending and another patrol has 3 or 4 boys attending, and some adult decides that for the sake of convenience, they should be combined for the weekend. Yes, it is more convenient in terms of hauling gear and buying/cooking food. But it is NOT more convenient for the inter-personal skills that the boys are learning. It places much greater stresses on the PL who now has to navigate completely different group dynamic. And it breaks down a sense of patrol identity. Yes, it is more convenient for the ADULTS, but not necessarily for the BOYS.