Lisabob

Yeah I really wondered that about those McMansion buyers too, a few years back when things took a down turn here. Especially because a lot of them were mid-level, white collar workers in various offshoots of the auto industry! I just couldn't imagine how they felt secure doing it. Fast forward to now and look at the foreclosure rates and it seems a lot of them really weren't that secure after all.

How old are the boys involved, how many of them are there going to be, and will there be any other children (siblings, friends, cousins, whoever) present? Generally speaking the more kids, and the younger the kids are, the more you need a scheduled environment. Same is true when you have many kids who don't know each other, or don't know the group's ground rules. On the other hand, if this is a small den of webelos, you may not need as much of an agenda. Either way, some time to play tag and search for bugs under rocks is always good even with a younger or bigger crowd.

Well John, living as I do in MI, I have been watching this story for a couple of years. Michigan has been a leader in the slump you see, and in the last half (quarter?) of 2007 we had the highest unemployment rate in the country. So I have to say that this is not news to anybody around here, and no one is questioning whether it is "really" happening. In fact, assertions to that effect tend to get a shake of the head and one of those "is that guy/gal crazy?" looks. It may be different where you are - actually I hope it is. But no question and no doubt, no matter what political persuasion, people around here are clear that it really has been a hard economic time.

I don't think there is a lot you can do to prevent this at this point, since a) you are leaving the pack after this year and b) someone else is apparently in charge of handing out the awards. What you could do, at least for your own son, is help him complete the requirements after he receives his patch. You know what they say about character - it's what you do when no one is watching? Here's a "teachable moment" for your son. Just be sure not to belittle his friends who also got the patch in the process - if they didn't earn that patch it is ultimately up to them to decide whether to make that right, and how, or whether to let it slide. By the way, yes this is more of an issue (I think) in cub scouting because the parents are so involved as "Akela" and some parents really don't get it. But it happens sometimes in boy scouting too, especially with merit badges "earned" at summer camps.

Thanks Barry, some good thoughts to consider. (Just as an aside, our SPL/ASPL serve for a full year rather than 6 months - I wonder how typical that is?)

Thanks for the input. Beavah, most of the time I'd say our troop fits the second model you mention. Most boys who earn Eagle are 16-17 and we usually have a fairly active corp of high school juniors/seniors. So it seems odd to me that 3 of the candidates this former SM is pushing are only going into 8th and 9th grade. I'm not sure these boys (my son among them) agreed to run because they want to? Or because they want to please this former SM. The first is great, the second, not great. But yes, I guess they are the next "generation" in the troop and it is a bit surprising to think of them as the "older" boys! When did that happen?! One other thing - I don't think we do a very good job of utilizing ASPLs in our troop - there's just not a lot of mentoring that happens there. Most of the boys who have been ASPL tend to fade away from scouting after a year of that, rather than staying and becoming SPL the next time. Kind of a shame really, and I can't tell if it is mainly due to their age (our SPLs and ASPLs tend to be older high school boys) or because of the way the job turns out. I'd rather not see our younger fellows go down that road though, as I think all 3 of them could be strong SPLs in another year or two. Well thanks for letting me express my worries. I'm sure that, if chosen, my son will give it his best and he'll certainly learn from the experience either way.

Although I understand your motives I don't think it would be a good idea to play middle man(woman?) in someone else's messy divorce by telling each parent when the other one will or won't show. That's just really not your job and incidentally, is kind of unfair to your dedicated volunteer who IS there, helping out ("mom"). And unfortunately there isn't a law against parents using their children as pawns in dumb adult power games. That certainly sounds like part of what the dad is doing here. A couple of thoughts: 1) Help the boy figure out how to work on something on his own. No he may not get the attendance award but maybe he can earn some other award that will give him a few minutes in the spot light. Who knows, maybe there's even something his dad really likes to do that he can ask dad to help him with. In addition to the various beltloops/pins a few others might include the world conservation award, the leave no trace awareness award, the emergency preparedness award, and plenty of others. Or just encourage him to pick a beltloop/pin to work on (maybe with dad). The nice thing about many of these is that he doesn't need to be at the den meeting to do most of them. 2) Is this boy moving on to boy scouts? If so, maybe dad will be more interested in that program. I've met several dads (and some moms) who just don't "get" cub scouts but who really enjoy boy scouts with their kids. It is a very different type of program. At the same time, in my own experience, troops tend to be less able to schedule around an individual boy's family situation the way you described. The best troops tend to meet every week and camp once a month (most months anyway) and they just can't pull it off to avoid Bobby's dad's visitation weekend, etc.. They go when they go, and boys who are free and want to attend, do. There isn't as much a sense of group advancement in boy scouting so this works a little better there, I suppose, than in cub dens where often all or most of the boys advance together.

I know, I know, age is not everything. Tell me though, how you feel about this. My son and a couple of other boys who are currently 7th and 8th graders and 1st Class or Star ranks, have been strongly encouraged to run for SPL, by a leader whom they trust. There are also a couple of boys who will be in 11th grade running, both of whom are dedicated and active scouts. Yes I had my moment of parental pride. My son! Maybe an SPL! And if he is elected I'll support him however he wants me to. But you know, I'm not sure he's ready for it. He likes scouts, has been a patrol leader three times and struggled, and learned from his struggles. Recently he took on the task of building and leading a venture patrol and they are just beginning to dream big dreams. But he told me he was only running for SPL because Mr. So-and-So asked him to, and he hopes he doesn't win. He isn't one of the kids who eats, breathes, and sleeps scouting. He goes to most events, but half the time I think it is because I'm driving and his options are limited! If he gets elected I know that he will work hard but I think it will be a source of great stress for him. And I'm concerned he'll burn out and not want to come back after that. What do you think? Is 13-14 really a young age to be SPL, if a boy isn't breathing fire to do the job? I sort of hate to say it but I kind of wonder if this adult isn't encouraging them to run just so there's a competitive election? I respect and like this guy but his pressure on my son surprised me. I wonder if he isn't being set up a bit and (mom instinct rising now) I can't say I like wondering that.

I find this thread to be interesting, whether "Avery" is a poser or not. For one thing, as scout leaders a lot of us will, or have, interacted with a 14 year old boy who questions faith in our own troops. And it is very interesting to me to see how others address this question toward a (seeming) youth. Over in the issues & politics arena the debate would have disintegrated into nastiness long before it reached page 4. For another, who knows, maybe some teen out there will read this thread and gain good advice. Avery, if you are indeed a "real boy," you should be commended on your ability to express yourself clearly and cogently - most 14 year olds I know (let alone, many adults) could not take on this subject as eloquently as you are doing here. Here's my advice, for what it is worth. Scouting at its best is like an open doorway, beckoning you to walk through and experience new and different things. This can be true in terms of outdoor adventure but it can also be true in terms of exploring ideas about who you are. Now there are limits - scouting is not the place for exploring sexuality, for example (in general, youth programs of any sort tend to treat youth as asexual, or perhaps, "pre-sexual" beings and I don't think this is bad, or unusual). But it is a place for you to think more deeply about who you are, what you believe, and what all those words in the scout oath and law mean to you. People aren't fully formed at the age of 14 - or 24 - or 54 - or whatever age - but after your teens and early 20s I do think it is harder for many to find time and mental space to truly think about these sorts of issues and to effect change. We tend to get rooted in our lives and identities by work, family, and sheer force of habit. So I would say, don't pass up that open doorway that scouting offers you, while you have the luxury of youth to go and explore. And more pragmatically speaking, maybe you need to find a different troop to be part of, if your current troop is very rigid about these sorts of things. I'd be uncomfortable in a troop that required attendance at chapel every camp out too.

Ain't the internet fun Gonzo?? No offense taken, and happy camping to all.

Well who'd have thought the grumps would break out here of all places. To put everyone's minds at ease (I suppose), yes this is a question about summer camp. We're going to a camp that provides platform tents but doesn't have enough cots for most of the boys. Additionally, the month prior to camp we have need for an intermittent sleeping arrangement that is portable and doesn't include the floor or couch. (That's a long story but has nothing to do with scouting so I'll leave it off here). Since we need a cot anyway I figured I'd look at buying one now and just use it for both purposes.

John, Rest easy - it isn't going to happen. She wouldn't make it through the Senate confirmation process even if she wanted the seat - which I rather doubt. While it is possible for a sitting Senator to become a supreme court justice, it is exceedingly rare in the modern era and Clinton does not have a typical job history for strong candidates to the court (ie, no prior experience as a judge and her experience as a lawyer is rather distant at this point). Of the current justices, 8 of the 9 were sitting justices in the federal appeals (Circuit) court system when nominated. The 9th was a state appellate court justice (Souter). The last US Supreme Court nominee who lacked prior judicial experience was Harriet Miers and you may recall that her own party wasn't supportive of that nomination, questioning her credentials. And since when has Obama become "You-Know-Who" anyway? Like the evil wizard in the Harry Potter Books, people fear to speak his name? Or did you maybe mean McCain, who seems, at times, to share Voldemort's temper and seeming immortality?

Amen to that, and thank you for posting. I plan to share this with a few reluctant parents of first year scouts, who are still on the fence.

Scoutingmama, You might get a more reliable answer by talking to the camp ranger and/or summer camp program director. I have found over the years that sometimes the DEs do not know all the details of what is happening on the ground, and that's even with experienced DEs. You might also get a better answer by talking with some local leaders of other troops who have been to this camp recently. Perhaps if you post the camp's name here some of us can provide recent info/experience too. Depending on how far away the camp is you might also be able to swing a quick tour of the camp yourself, maybe during staff week before campers start arriving. That should clarify things for certain. As a last resort, you may be able to borrow tents from other area troops. Good luck!

ScoutNut gave you some good advice about managing the drop off issue - having a greeter outside to catch the parents might help. Someone else (NOT you - the Committee Chair and CM must be involved here and ScoutNut is right that the charter org. should be too) needs to also have a formal sit-down with these parents explaining that their children aren't welcome to attend without a parent in tow. But I do understand your frustration. No, training can't cover everything. It would be very helpful to have some real training in people management though - something to start with, at least, for new leaders. A lot of times cub scouting is the first place where adults have to manage other adults in a non-work setting where you can't just fire/not work with an under-performing or strange person. And it does take some skill. Most of the time the true problem isn't with the boys (yes that can be challenging but at least we have the advantage of age and experience on them, and most of us are also parents). The true difficulty lies in dealing with their parents and in learning to work with adults whose parenting styles are vastly different from one's own. Now that might not be the case for you personally in this situation, basementdweller - but it does seem to be a common issue in cub scouting. I know that it was for me.

Oh gear heads, I need your help. Looking at camp cots here, and there is (as usual) a pretty wide range of prices, from $25 to $100+ in the campmor catalog. This isn't for backpacking so weight isn't really an issue. What are the main things to look for in a good camp cot? I'm assuming the heavier/more expensive ones are less prone to getting bent or being creaky but is that it? Does anybody have any favorites?

Which all brings me to a point: since I'm newly returned to the program (my 11-yr-old just joined a troop), are troops allowed to officially adopt a troop hat? My son's present troop doesn't have a hat policy. Hi Guy, and welcome back. The short answer to your question is "yes." No doubt you'll get some longer answers too; uniforming seems to bring out opinions like almost no other topic.

Yes, it was the state legislature that changed the primary date. The national parties (BOTH of them) warned/threatened states not to put their primaries or caucuses or whatevers before January 15th. Some did anyway (MI and FL). The potential consequence was indeed spelled out up front, but I don't believe anyone really thought the parties would stick to their word and apply the consequence. And in most presidential election years it would be a moot point because usually by early March it is crystal clear who the party's nominee will be anyway. Had that been the case this year, MI and FL could have either hung their heads and apologized, thus likely getting their seats restored on the basis of whoever "won" the votes (assuming Hillary would be the nominee) because those "none of the above" votes wouldn't have mattered. Or they could have quietly had a re-do to make it official and again, it wouldn't have impacted the outcome. There were numerous deals in the offing to re-do the election here in MI (and I think in FL too) but, because in April the race was still so extraordinarily close, a deal could not be reached that was acceptable to both candidates and to the state. To make it worse, the state pays for the primary. Having already done so one time, being in a state with the highest unemployment rate and one of the weakest economies in the country right now, and having part of the state legislature controlled by the opposing party, there was little to no chance of the state agreeing to pay twice. And outside financing, which was briefly discussed, would only materialize if both Obama and Clinton could agree on the rules for any re-do, which of course they could not. In the case of the Republican party, I believe the original threat was to reduce the # of delegates by half for states who violated the rule against early primaries. However, with the party unifying behind McCain and no further challengers, I think I recall that the national party recanted and is now planning to seat the full delegations from MI and FL to the Republican convention. Someone can correct me if you have more current info - I admit I haven't followed the twists and turns of that one as closely. What kills me about this are two things. First, the architect of the early primary in MI has gone on record saying what a great idea it was and how well it worked out! Second, if we had just left our little primary in late Feb/early March where it has always been, we'd have been in a far more influential position that we ended up in, by holding it early. I think the only good thing that could possibly come from this would be that maybe both parties will sit down and take a closer look at how we do primaries and caucuses nationwide. There has been a lot of rumbling for change for a decade now, and perhaps FL and MI will be catalysts for something to actually happen between now and 2012. (But I'm not holding my breath!)

Tell us, Lisa'bob, is Hillary really tryin' to steal half of the "uncommitted" delegates (da votes that refused to check her name on the ballot)? Yes. Again let me recommend to all what has become one of my favorite books, "Deliver the Vote" It is a well-written, entertaining, and absorbing history of voting fraud from the colonial period right up to modern day. If the author should happen to publish a second edition, I'm certain MI and FL will merit a chapter. But get your kicks while they last Beavah, because by next week Clinton will be out, at least as the presidential candidate (she may still be the VP if she can just get Bill to lay low for her/their own good). And I kinda think even the most disgruntled of us Dems up here in MI will come back into the fold once this infighting is over with.

I call them sweatshirts. THEY roll their eyes at my outdated vernacular and inform me that these are not sweatshirts, they are "HOODIES." You go ahead and let them know that this does not meet the "man" test. Good luck with that.

I have noticed a big upswing in the number of boys in our troop who wear the "new" switchback (olive) scout pants for daily activity, whether to school or on active camp outs. Boys who would never in a million years have worn the "old" scout pants for actual physical activity, are happy in the newer pants. I still think a scouting T or hoodie is more likely active-wear than the revamped scout shirt will be, but who knows? Our troop gave in several years back and ordered fleece hoodies with our troop info embroidered on them - at least that way, when boys changed out of the uniform, they were still wearing "scout" gear. And they do wear the hoodies with pride, even when they would prefer to hide the De la Renta shirts. This, combined with the popularity of the newer scout pants for "general" use, suggests to me that if the BSA were to design a more contemporary shirt, boys would indeed wear it. It isn't scouts that are "gay," but rather the fashion-designer uniform that gets criticized.

Scoutldr, I invite you to one of our troop meetings. PM me for time/place. (most of the women associated with the troop, myself included, agree that this is an easier look for most men to carry off due to the need for short hair. But most of our boys really, really, really like the berets! They've even held troop "beret shaving/shaping" nights, no kidding. And yes, that brings to mind, well, all sorts of other snide comments.)

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I am worried that the fundraising won't pan out. Intentions are one thing, reality another, especially for teenagers. As for jambo attendance, I know this isn't a unit endeavor. But strangely enough, our unit has the jump on things this time around so that I expect that most of the boys who want to go (and meet the criteria), will get to go. That would be the same group who are invigorated by the notion of a HA venture patrol... To add another option to the list, they are now thinking of a HA venture option for 2009, a HA summer camp/troop option for summer 09, AND Jambo in 2010. Oh, my aching wallet! On the other hand, I'm delighted that they're looking 2 years ahead and still expecting to be active in scouting. Eamonn commented earlier about this being the best use of his money and I can understand that.

My son's troop wears berets (green, embroidered with Troop #) There is a definite cache attached to them! When we have new boys join, the first thing they want is that beret. When we go to summer camp the berets become a hot commodity for trading. If I hadn't seen it myself I would not believe it. But we've got 50 boys and they all proudly wear their berets. On the flip side, a wool beret on a hot summer day is not always nice. They don't provide any shade. And you do have to shape them or else they tend to look goofy.

DenZero, what you need is an insider - a mom or dad who has a boy in the pack, who is active in the school as an aide or helping with us duty or in the PTO or whatever, who will be willing to go to bat for you. Do you have someone like that in the pack? If so, go talk with them! They probably already have the channels of communication that you do not have. Another option might be more direct contact. A parent of a soon-to-be Tiger in one of our district's packs recently sent a letter to the home of every kindergarten boy in the school, inviting them/their parents to join cub scouts. I'm not exactly sure how he got the listing, but I know for a fact that his letter caught people's attention (in a good way).