Laurie

I can't answer how often it's updated, but I've been involved for less than 2 years, but in that time, I've seen one update. In this district, our DE sends the CMs and SMs a copy of the G2SS each year during program launch. It also available on-line: www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/index.html .(This message has been edited by Laurie)

Aw Pack, the suspense! I look forward to your response

I am merely saddened that BSA considers their ideas so weak that they cannot be subjected to public criticism by members who are interested in the program. In effect, BSA reserves that right only for outsiders. Do you think that is a good thing? Pack, excellent question. I'm not so sure it's anything to do with weak ideas though. Couldn't it simply be that if I am a member of the BSA that there is an expectation that I will support the BSA? And when I do disagree, isn't even a carefully thought out statement of opposition making my membership less meaningful rather than the organization? In thinking this through, what I have to ask myself is this: if I am willing to speak publicly against an organization which I take pride in being part of of, then what exactly is it that I'm so glad to be part of? Just part of the organization? Or the organization as a whole? Blindly accepting the sum total is foolish, but being willing to evaluate whether I can continue to carry out the program by evaluating the degree of commitment I have to seems time well spent. Twocubdad, I can't speak for others, but I'm not afraid of speaking out (obviously ). That's easy for me to say now because I have nothing big to disagree with. What I personally am trying to do is to understand how we can show support even when we disagree in part. Some do that rather well, but others show little support and still remain members. What is the standard -- maybe that is the question I am trying to answer. One thing I've become aware of recently is that I'm often the topic of conversation in this area. Now that is something to be afraid of! We must live in a boring community, hm? My support of the BSA, which is public and positive, has been noticed. In fact, it has been repeated to my by the Cub Scouts in the pack who tell me what their parents say about me. What I do and say matters, and not just during pack meetings. It has helped the unit become stronger and during rocky times (too many this past year in the unit) it is what my credibility was based on locally and even out at council. If I were to speak against anything, I wonder what message I might give? And FWIW, I would not tell a child what to believe, but I've has some great discussions with children about how to come to their own decisions with the help of their parents. So long as I am a leader in the BSA, I feel that I must be able to support the BSA publicly, and to me that doesn't feel like a loss of anything. I am humbled to be trusted and honored to serve, and I can't see a public dispute--even carefully and respectfully worded--fitting into this.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

We are not required to support council financially. We are, however, expected to have a FOS presentation on an annual basis. This past year the pack took part in popcorn, but for a variety of reasons, no one wants to do so again. One of my concerns, which I took to the pack committee, is that if we don't sell popcorn, we will not be supporting council financially. Therefore, the decision was made to hold a fundraiser--something we can actually get families to do--and designate the funds to council. All that was needed to get enthusiasm for supporting council financially was an understanding of what exactly that meant -- as in how does that benefit our own boys? There are no discounts or incentives offered to units to do fundraising--not here anyway.

Hunt, do you feel that Mr. Lipson's public statements to the press agaisnt a current policy of the BSA helped or hurt the council? Quite frankly I'm surprised at the support National has given him. I would not expect the same support had it been me, not even now that it has been given to someone else. I'm also not sure I would deserve support because if I were to speak publicly against policy, it would be fair for any person to question my commitment to the organization, my motives in speaking publicly of them, and to even suggest I leave. That doesn't make thinking differently wrong; it might make what I do with what I think to be wrong though. I have always believed that when I become part of an organization, I should do so only if I agree with it and can live by its policies. To do otherwise creates a conflict, and for me personally, it's just not worth it.

Bob & NJ ~ Your posts have me wondering this: How far may one go in expressing disagreement with any BSA policy? I suppose I'm being too idealistic to think it is ok to disagree with policy so long as one practices it. Since there are those who agree with so much of what BSA stands for and offers, but do have disagreements of one sort or another (laser tag comes to mind, not just the God and homosexuality issues), what option--if any--is there to express disagreement?

Bob, I'm sorry to have used your name too, though I was rather bothered by assumptions of what you might say being posted. Do you happen to have thoughts on the issue of Webmaster as POR? In your own words? I have little experience in troops, so I'd like to hear more about this and if it's a possibility. John-in-KC, thanks for the answer to the MB question I asked.

If someone is not willing to abide by BSA policies, then shouldn't that person leave? My being American does not entitle me to a BSA leadership position; my willingness to adhere to BSA policy does allow me to considered for BSA leadership. My paying for my membership does not allow me to change the BSA or pick and chose what to follow; it allows me the benefits of being part of this organization. There are those who brush aside policy and rules and do their own thing--that troubles me. There are those who disagree, some here do, speak up about it and even act on it, but they do so without blowing off the policies and rules. By the way, did BSA impose a rule that none of its members can disagree with its official pronouncements as the original post alluded to? Or is that just to get conversation flowing? (Not a hard thing to manage in this group )

Wow, for someone not part of this thread, Bob White has been referred to 4 times already. I would not agree with a POR of Webmaster. What happens when the youth goes to a BOR and it's decided that he did not hold a true POR? It seems to me that this sets him up for failure. However, as a SM approved project to benefit the troop, I think this is a great idea. Maybe it's nothing more than semantics, but to go against what has been defined as approved PORs to create one just doesn't seem to be in the best interests of the Scouts. This seems like a good time to encourage youth and adults alike to write to National about considering adding this as a POR. Considering how important computers and the web are today, maybe the change can be made, but made in an official way. I have not looked at the Computer MB or Communications (I believe there is one called Communications?) recently. Does webmaster fall under a MB already?(This message has been edited by Laurie)

Balding Eagle, that is not a problem here -- getting the items, that is. This is true of the 2 scout shops each an hour away, the National Supply Division 15 minutes away, and the hobby store that is authorized to sell BSA uniforms about 30 minutes away. Quite frankly, there is no excuse in this area when it comes to availability. However, many units don't require socks and pants, instead encouraging khakis or jeans with the uniform shirt. This is a surprising practice to me, but I've now seen in many units. It is rare to come across one that has fully uniformed leaders or youth. In fact, the only people I've seen in full uniform are the commissioners and our DE. I am surprised that your scout shop doesn't stock the pants and sorry you ran into that particular problem. My parents placed an order through Scoutstuff.org and requested shipping, but I don't know if it was the council that shipped to them or National. They liked the service, but they thought the shipping was rather high--just an FYI. If you go to Scoutstuff.org, you can do a search by zip code to see if there are other stores that sell BSA that are local to you.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

Job hunting is one of the most demanding, most frustrating, most painful things you will ever do. If you show the same dedication and gumption you showed in earning the Eagle Scout award, you will make out great. Well said. My husband has been unemployed for almost 3 years now (outside the home anyway). He has 2 degrees, has had numerous of

GKMom, wow, that's a tough one then. I'm sorry your son finds things so very challenging. It is good that he has support As for our son, the SM is not a bad guy at all, and I realize my post made it sound that way. I won't go into the problems publicly, but I did want to clarify that I am not against that SM. He gave our son a great introduction to Scouting, and for that I'll always be grateful. Good luck to your son as he works this all out!

I wonder if it would be possible for your son to write a note to the SM about the concerns he has that make it hard for him to speak to him? One thing one of our sons has difficulty with (I believe part is personality and part is simply that he is so young) is talking directly to adults. We, as his parents, encourage him to go to the proper authority figures as often as possible. We ask him how we can support him in doing this. One thing we've done is to say "call us if you need us to come to _______________" fill in the blank with school, Scouts, whatever it may be. At one time our son had difficulty making an apology to a teacher; he wrote it, and that led to a discussion between him and the teacher and the next time a discussion was needed, more confidence in approaching that teacher. He had trouble seeking help when bullied; he did go for help, but he made the choice of how to do so after discussing options at home and then taking action himself. Scouting has been a mix of things for our son, and sadly, not all good. It took over a year to learn why he would no longer approach his SM or any other leader for anything, and though I knew things weren't quite right, I had no idea how bad it was. During this year, we watched our son go from a happy boy to a sad boy, lose confidence, begin to challenge authority though he had not before. We thought the problem was tied to changes at home, then to school, but it was Scouting. There comes a time to become involved, and if you feel this is the time, then do get involved. But I like the advice you were given: find out what your son wants to have happen here. Help him make it happen so it's his solution, his accomplishment, his growth.

I second Dan's advice. I think it would be a very good idea to begin helping out, going through the application process, then learning about the troop in a less involved way for a time so they can know you and you can learn if this is where you really want to give your time. As for Girl Scouts, I have been actively volunteering in many capacities for 30 years, and I am 40. My mom encouraged me to learn if the medical field was for me by volunteering as a candy striper at age 10, something I ended up doing for 8 full summers. Girl Scouts also encouraged this, and it provided many more opportunities for me to serve in various ways. I still sing the song "On my honor I will try, there's a duty to be done and I say I, there's a reason here for a reason above, my honor is to try and my duty is love". That guides me to this day. Had I not been encouraged to try, I would not have learned to serve in any way. Just a former Girl Scout's take on what growing up with trying meant to me

Thank you all! Many of our streamers are very faded now too. I'm not willing to take them off the flag just yet though--maybe when they begin to unravel I will. The shadow box is a neat idea. I was hoping to scrapbook them, but they are too long. I am going to take a little time to photograph them on the digital camera though and then make up a CD of the streamers. In fact, there are many pack items that have history attached to them: old pinewood derby cars (70s), old books, old certificates that show some wear. Before putting them into displays, I'll photograph them as well. One day, these items may fade away, but we'll have something to remember them by. Since we are learning so much about the pack from these items, I hate the idea of not trying to preserve them in some way. I think the history of the pack is important. Thanks again!

Dan, thank you, and we weren't arguing (yet!), but I think we could have if we kept on going. We might even be saying the same thing but using different words. Did you know that I'd just have to respond when you said you are correct? Moving on to other topics now, and there sure are plenty...

Dan, I was not arguing. I said this is my understanding of the roles of CM and SM. When you say I use certain words, you are right--but you left out a good number of them too. Since I think anything I say now will become an argument, I'm ending my part in this thread.

No, I don't think the SM is in charge. I think he is charged with the responsibility to serve the boys in the troop. To me that means he is responsible to the charter organization to do what he was chosen to do. To me that means he is responsible for setting a good example to the troop and to ensuring that leader training (youth leader training) is taking place. I serve as CM right now, but I know that I am not in charge. I can be removed, and I know that, so I hope I'm being responsible to the CR as well as to the pack by following the program as the BSA intends leaders to. This is how I see the SM role too--as chosen and charged with responsibility to carry out a particular program. Not the sole responsibility, but shared responsibility. Oh, and no, the CO did not chose either of us for these roles. I was asked by the committee and den leaders and the UC approved it. At the time there was no known CR; there is now, and he is involved more. However, whether or not the CO provided oversight or did the choosing, I still know that I have a responsibility to them and that they should make the call in who serves. That is what guides me to follow the program even without them being involved. That and the fact that I simply enjoy the BSA (This message has been edited by Laurie)

During Health and Safety training only 2 weeks ago, we spent a great deal of time working on hypothetical situations and utilizing the G2SS. The types of trips mentioned were all ok considering the appropriate people were in place--but age was not a factor. Have you spoken to council about the tour permits and asked for specific reasons for what was turned down? That said, this council does have age restrictions on some camp programs, but they are clearly stated up front--no surprises. That is for those specific programs though, not for all Scouts going on all trips.

Dan, I'm confused. Do you think the SM should get to call all the shots his way? I don't see it that way. There is a program, there are policies, and there is shared responsibility. The SM is the person most--if not all--would likely look to to see how the troop carries out the program. The SM is the one responsible for ensuring the program is delivered, but he has a committee supporting him and then SAs and the youth to actually deliver the program too. How does this translate into the SM doing things his way? Or am I missing something?

I would love to have had more time in the leader specific break-out time. That to me just flew by, and I know more could have been covered just because we had such a lively discussion going too--everyone wanted to know the how-tos not just have an explanation of what to do. That would not have allowed for everything to be covered in the time allowed though. That said, I had quite a suprise when I observed the Den Chief training. It was almost all hands-on. Some boys were leading the "den meeting" or teaching games to the other boys--then they switched. It was fast paced, packed with lots of things, only a few hours long, and so much fun the time flew. I learned more about being a CM by observing this 4 hour course than I did in any other training; it looked to me like a pack meeting in action -- so yes, I think seeing a meeting in action does help, even if it's a pretend one such as that I just mentioned. I went to learn how to best utilize our Den Chiefs, but I came home realizing how simple it can be to have a ton of fun during meetings. The adult training is far less hands-on, and for me, though it was a beneficial time, the youth training was more fun and therefore "stuck" better. The leader training provided me with what I should be doing; the Den Chief training provided me with how I should be doing it. Hmmm... maybe that says more about this leader than the training (This message has been edited by Laurie)

I'm not sure I'm new anymore (sure feel like I've been at this for a long time!), but here's my take on training: My first training session was BALOO. It was the first offered, and I went. I loved it. It was the first BALOO course offered at the district level in the council last year, and only 2 from our district came and 3 from a neighboring district. The trainer loves Scouting, knows what he is doing, and was able to clearly present the materials. There was some time allowed for questions, and I had many. The other trainers there were all good, some dull and some enthusiastic, but all very capable and desiring to help us to learn. I came home excited, talked it up in the pack, and 3 leaders went to the next training session of BALOO--a year later. I was invited to roundtables during this training, and I go to every one. At roundtables I have received Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat trainings, but best of all have met with other unit leaders and learned a lot about how to apply what was learned. When YP, NLE, and position specific was offered, I went with 3 others. We all had been actively involved for a year at this point, but it was the first time this course was offered. We all came home feeling we had benefitted, and we implemented some changes in program. I liked the Ages and Stages part--learned a lot in that. The den leaders like the den leader training and came home ready to build up their meetings, which were already good, but now they were easier and more fun. Not one of us felt it was a waste of time though we all wished more could have been covered. We liked it and talked about, so those who had missed it signed up for the next course a few months later. Two went. Both are den leaders, and both are good den leaders, but they came home with new ideas and an enthusiasm they hadn't had before. Funny thing: I've been promoting Program Helps and Themes. It hasn't caught on. BUT these last 2 who took training--they wanted to know if we could do themes and wanted to know where that book was. Do you mean this one I ask as I pull my copy out of my tote that goes to every meeting? Whatever took place in training, it made things that have been talked about finally fall into place. The one leader said I knew you had this book, knew themes sounded good, but in training it all just seemed so clear. That's the key -- it brought the tools available to light and to life. The leaders have been asking me what training comes next. Training does not get promoted to the units very well, not even through roundtable, so this is a weak area that could be improved. The training team is trying to work on that too. They are small, but they are good. Did I learn new things? Yes, even those things that were familiar were seen in a different light by me. Quite frankly, I anticipate taking some of the same classes again because I know the first time was just a little overwhelming. This time I will be able to evaluate what I do as a leader as I go through the training. This is all Cub training. My husband wants to know what comes between SM training (which he took) and Wood Badge. He said there must be more because he felt the SM training did not cover a lot. I thought that odd because he spent 2 nights of classroom training then a full week-end away putting into practice what was learned. He loved it. I asked him if he felt he understood the program. He said yes, training was great for that. So I asked him what more he wanted. He grinned, realizing where I was going with this. I look at training as the opportunity to learn the basics, then we learn more as we put them into practice. So it looks like he's off to Wood Badge after all if it's not too late In this unit and the unit my husband started out with, regardless of how long one was leading or how new one was, the training provided a fresh perspective and a chance to evaluate if we were doing what Scouting is designed to do.

I don't have a pop-up ad blocker, and I have not seen this. In fact, I've never seen a pop-up ad here.

I'm so sorry for your loss. You and your family are in my prayers.

Achileez, it is the civility in how you explain what you believe or do not believe and how you don't agree with the BSA that makes me personally more inclined to listen to you. NJCubScouter has shown that same civility--usually -- in saying what he supports in the BSA and what he doesn't agree with. I've little to no time for those will just criticize others, regardless of their religious background (or lack thereof), their race, or anything else. Zahnada nailed it another post: this particular board--Issues and Politics--is becoming pretty harsh. Please do not judge all Christians by some who do speak as bigots or are just plain mean--and there are plenty who call themselves Christian who don't exactly act it. I'm not sure why this thread seems to indicate that the BSA has Christian beliefs; that's not the case at all. There are so many different religions represented, and I count it a privilege to meet many from different religious backgrounds. As for atheists, to my knowledge I've not yet met one other than on-line. As for the sadness I feel for those who don't have something to hang onto when times get rough (at least that is what atheism seems to be to me), I won't deny it. I won't agree with it either, but I'll not hate you or call your names. That is not what I've learned in my faith and that is not what I've learned as a Girl Scout growing up and a Scouter today. Eamonn--good question.