Laurie

I thought Pack Trainer was someone who could train at the unit level, for we too have had difficulty getting timely training for new leaders. However, from our council I learned that if I were to be Pack Trainer, I'd have to take part in the Trainer Development Conference, each of the Cub Scout Leader Specific positions, New Leader Essentials and Youth Protection Training. Then, I'd be expected to communicate the training dates to those in the unit--and that is it. No training may be done by me as a Pack Trainer. This is why it is best to check with your own council. From others on-line, I find that different councils handle this position in different ways.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

Eamonn gives good advice. In this council, a leader may not be trained within the unit. All training is done at the district and council level by teams of trainers. An opinion of my own about this: having trainers outside the unit train unit members takes pressure off of those within the unit. It also gives a fresh perspective and helps the entire unit because each time a leader takes training, that leader brings some new idea to the unit. I've seen this happen every time one of our leaders takes parts in a training of some sort. But this is just my opinion

scoutldr, I agree with you completely. We have a problem getting committee members though, and to complicate that, den leaders want to do committee work as well as den leadership. I am very much against that. What I would like to see happen, and I do believe it's possible, is for the den leaders to communicate what they want (I get a "wish list" from them regularly to pass on to the committee) and need, but to focus on the dens. I'd like to see the committee members carry out the business that needs to be covered so it lightens the load of the den leaders. You know what I think happens? The leaders make their own roles entirely too difficult.

The CM role should be fun and compared to others, fairly easy. Having helped two dens so far, and helping another to find its feet right now as it begins a new year, I have tremendous respect and even admiration for our den leaders. I often call them mine, but I mean no harm in it. What I do is to serve them in any way I can. A call to see how things are going, thank yous and praise as often as possible (and they give many reasons for both), asking how they are and meaning it. Not a "how are you" as I walk away and they'd answer my back--we've all received that one. I think that encouraging den leaders is a huge part of the CM role, and that naturally leads to working as a team in pulling together a pack meeting. Den leadership is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. That is where the leader-Cub relationships are built, where most of the fun and interaction takes place. Committees have the most "unfun" job and though it can be challenging, I tend to think it shouldn't be. My reason is simple: I was asked by the CC to cover for him for awhile. I served actively as CC, CM, helped one den out, plus had my own son to think of in the pack, an older son and his activities in Scouts, and a family--but not necessarily in that order The paperwork that needs to be filled out is simple--important, but nothing tricky. The advancement orders can take up time, but again, it's fairly simple so long as the person doing it doensn't mind paperwork. Planning a budget, a calendar, a program year--none are difficult to work up. I've done these when no one else would. I did them ONCE. Now, this past year we had ups and downs. Thankfully, for the boys, it was all ups. For the adults, it was learning our roles and how to best serve the youth. Training, adding new leaders, planning ahead and avoiding spur of the moment stuff--things of that nature. Very quickly I earned either the pack leadership's respect or they found me to be easy to pass things off to. I became overwhelmed. I quietly, calmly, and clearly listed the many items that had fallen to me in a few short months at a committee meeting. I expressed my concern that (1) I couldn't keep up this pace, (2) shouldn't keep up this pace as I was not doing any one role well, and (3) that we had too many capable people to simply rely on one. One person who had done nothing for months immediately took on a couple items--a committee member taking on committee work. Word traveled to those not at the meeting, and a den leader whose den had bridged became active again on the committee and took on two key roles: fundraising and the calendar. Den leaders each volunteered to take on one activity to plan out. We all have plenty to do, for the pack is active, and there are many different dens to serve. I would encourage you to share your concerns. You should not and can not do it all. You might try, you might even succeed, but that is not what the role of CM is about, nor is the role of any one Cub Scouter. There will always be families who won't be involved, but sadly, we can't change that and we know their sons may miss out. What we can do is the best as a team that we are able to do, and anything that stretches us too thin--well, we drop it unless someone takes up that item.

One of the things I remember my brother doing as a Scout was making and using his own snowshoes. We live in an area that has snow some winters, not all, but as we got snow he used those snowshoes to go everywhere. BSA offers what is called Okpik training for cold weather camping. I did a quick search to see if any of it made it on-line, and some info is here: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/ . Have fun!

That is hard news. Prayers lifted, and I'm so sorry to hear this.

Maybe I'm too simple minded, but doesn't every judge have opinions and ideas that could possibly color his view of what he hears? Will imposing rules remove what the judge feels inside? Will it truly make him/her less capable of learning, understanding, and accurately applying law?

This is something that I try to impress on our sons. Scouting isn't just living by the oath and law during the meeting time or at camp. It is something that should be part of school, home, church, neighborhood, work--in short, a way to guide how one lives. I do not understand how any youth can progress to Life or Star without demonstrating Scout-like attitudes, but I got a little insight into that not too long ago. When the adult leadership doesn't expect the youth to act right, doesn't set the tone by setting a positive and strong example, when all beneath Eagle is considered "easy stuff", then the problem is not with the youth. IMO, it is with the troop leadership. Things weren't right long before a youth who seems undeserving receives Eagle. As for whether it is an award or a rank, I'm not sure that matters (though the question is thought-provoking), for it has certain expectations, goals, etc. that make it challenging to earn. A rank and an award each needs to be earned, so for me the goal is to help our own sons and as leaders to help where able/appropriate to help other youth to see that Scout Spirit is demonstrated 24/7 in all situations, and to grow in it.

Eamonn, the problem you have with these boys may be yours, but it is with very good cause. Are you the one responsible for them when you head out to the Jamboree?

In my short time in the BSA compared to others, I have met many who went to training, decided that what was taught wasn't practical, and then did their own thing. Additionally, these same people tended to discourage others from training. As for term limits, my understanding is that each year the roster is reviewed and adjusted. As I've recruited leaders personally, I tell them it's one year at a time, with recharter time being the time to make changes. This seems consistent with what others post here.

Korea Scouter--you got cut off, or are just toying with us?

The requirements book may help. I have found a mix of old and new books in the stores, so I always check the revision date. However, the first requirements book we bought as a family in 2002 has since been updated for 2004. That is the single easiest way I know of in book form, but meritbadge.com has updates noted. Maybe that would help?

Hi Mrs. Smith. I don't think you sound like a nitwit at all. It's a good question. The thing is, as you've now learned in this thread, there is no option unless you are staying in town (and that all depends upon how your council defines town). Do you receive a copy of the program launch materials, or some sort of information from council? We get a booklet each year with the district and council calendar and the local tour permit guidelines and the guide to safe scouting. A call to your council office would give you the specifics on exactly how your council defines the requirements for filing this form. Good luck--sounds like an uncomfortable position you may be in.

I see two issues here. One is singing for extras. There was no expectation of receiving second helpings, but it might be a fair expectation to receive the first helping. When anyone in our family attends camp, we know what is and isn't included in the cost and we are asked to clearly label all items with full name and troop number. We regularly pay for 3 meals per day per trip; we label all items. Therefore it seems a fair and reasonable expectation to receive those meals without singing for them or to be able to retreive misplaced items without a big production. As for singing for extras, well that sounds like it could be a lot of fun for everyone. Though I don't clearly understand this whole issue of hazing, I do see two issues presented in the original post: one being that I paid for/own something and one that I have an opportunity for more of something.

My nickname at day camp from age 10 through 15 was Dingbat. Sounds offensive, but it came about because I was always leading the others in song (others being 200 younger girls at a time) and in skits. Nothing bugged me more than a couple hundred gloomy-looking kids, so I could -- along with a couple friends -- get the group going but still maintain enough control to avoid the pushing and shoving. Because most of the songs were loud and action songs, because they tended to be silly, even out and out zany, I was dubbed Dingbat at some point. I wore the name proudly because it was meant in only the nicest way. The only problem with it is that most people never knew my true name. Even the bus driver knew me as Dingbat, so when the kids got rammy, he's holler, "hey Dingbat, can you get a song going". My mom wondered why my voice was virtually gone at the end of each day. I talk a lot, but during camp I sang almost all the time. Leading hikes, around the campfires, at the opening ceremony and the closing flag ceremony, on the bus... In junior high I was nicknamed Legs -- tall with short uniform skirts, I didn't mind since it started with some cute guys One son is now Magic Markers in school and Golden Foot to his soccer team. The littlest was Scoot for a long time because that's how she like getting around best -- and her nickname made her laugh. She's now Princess and truly thinks she is one--though she can spit in a most UNprincess like way thanks to her older brothers Nicknames, when not given to hurt others, are such fun to me. Oh no--there's a BSA no nickname rule? I had no idea.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

BP: This subject has been discussed in depth over in the Issues and Politics forum. Just a friendly note to let you and anyone else who may wonder that topic may be found there. Edit: I'm sorry--I thought I was reading open discussion when I read this.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

Fuzzy, that sounds rather familiar. In my case, my mom would tell us something, and it was my dad who would say "because she's your mother and you listen to her". I don't recall questioning my parents until I was in my late teens, and then of course I knew everything Interestingly enough my parents and my husband don't understand why I tell the kids the reason for what I tell them is right/wrong and the like. Our first son responded to explanations though, and I figure it helps him to form his own understanding of how to apply that judgement. The second child could care less about reasons--just did whatever he was told. The third is asking why AND challenging the reasons. Never a dull moment.

I remember being rather puzzled when our first son entered pre-k and the teacher made a comment that I just didn't get: "lessons are caught not taught". So, I listened carefully to what our son would tell us about each morning of pre-k, and I watched his teacher in action, and I began to see what she meant. At this age, it wasn't the academics that were being focused on nearly so much as helping a child learn to adjust to a classroom setting. The children adored her and were so well-behaved in class, but I knew some of them, and they weren't so well-behaved outside of class! Why then the good results? She respected the children, treated them fairly, was consistent: she modeled the behavior she wanted them to learn. Have you ever had that sick feeling when your child would say something or do something, knowing that you sure didn't teach it, but you did do or say it? I have. All too often in fact. My sincerest desire though is to live out what I would like for my children to learn. My words mean nothing compared to how I act and react to others and circumstances. I think it's ok to question values, and I encourage our children to question them. They need to have their own values (which I do hope are those my husband and I wish for them), to take ownership of them, or when faced with the confusing and often unfair stuff of life, they may be tempted to erase the lines others have drawn. If they have drawn the lines, they may be more inclined to keep their eyes on them. Thought-provoking questions Eamonn.

INTJ

I like the changes, but it sure was a shock to log on yesterday and see bright orange! I thought for sure I was on the wrong site. The look is different and appealing, the menu is more user-friendly, and the search function works better. Thought the content is the same, all in all, the changes were nicely done in my opinion.

It all began about 30-some years ago. My mom was my Brownie leader and my dad was a helper (he did any lifting and driving needed). My brother joined Cubs shortly after I joined Brownies, and my mom helped out (not sure of her role) and my dad became a committee member. Over the years, I went camping a lot, and I LOVED it. That was with Girl Scouts. During that time frame, our entire family went to pack meetings (which I recall fondly--such fun!) and then to COHs (also memorable--particularly Eagle for my brother). In looking back, what immediately comes to mind is: (1) BSA was all about families while at the same time teaching boys to become independent strong men, (2) full of ceremonies--I recall lots of fires and candles and Native American lore!, (3) and included lots of outdoor activities--the stories my father and brother would bring home are still vividly remembered by me. They did more camping than I did. The family outdoor events included an annual hayride, and that was great fun--especially when I was dating the boys in my brother's troop No one was surprised that I married a Boy Scout! Today, what I hope to bring to the BSA is those things that I have listed: family time, ceremonies, outdoor time with skills instruction, fun and adventure. How to do that? Fuzzy Bear said it: program! I didn't know there were lessons tucked into all that fun, and I wasn't even a Boy Scout, but I learned nevertheless, and I hope to see that continue on. Today, I am a Scouter because I have sons who I hope will grow into fine young men with the help of the opportunities they have in the BSA. My husband and I each come from folded troops, and we have made a commitment to remaining leaders and ensuring that our sons will have a troop for as long as they remain in Scouts. And I suspect we'll stick around after that too if welcomed and able to continue serving. My dad did--he's now the IH of the units my brother was member of, and he has grandsons in those units. This past year I recruited about 5 adult leaders, have several more interested, and it is because of all that I just shared with you. I made it my goal to get to know our families and then to let them know how the program goes far beyond simply fun and how they can be part of it too. Winning the parents over keeps the boys -- now we hope to add to that number.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

I thought the tiger (yes, it is a tiger, and they are hard to read) was for the Philadelphia zoo. So I just looked it up: "The Pennsylvania Zoological Council license plate was first issued in April 1996. Proceeds from this plate benefit the Pennsylvania Zoological Council's five member zoos: the Philadelphia Zoo, the Pittsburgh Zoo, the Erie Zoo, the Elmwood Park Zoo in Norristown, and the National Aviary in Pittsburgh."

Fuzzy Bear, I don't recall who said what, but it sure is policy for fundraising that something of appropriate value is provided for the cost charged. We as a unit keep that in mind when planning, and the one thing none of us understands is how this popcorn can be priced so high. When we sold it last year, many people asked why the price was so high. I don't have an answer other than this is what fundraising is: selling a product to make a profit. I do it because it benefits Scouts locally; that seems to be why most do. As for popcorn DE's, I don't know that we have them, but we do have two full-time finance people on staff that work--to my knowledge--just with popcorn. With such a large council I can understand that, but my vote is for another registrar too The one we have is too overworked IMO.

SA: I think I got that he's not having fun from the "more yelling and less understanding". Scoutmom, is he having fun? Excellent question. In my son's case, he was not having fun. MrsSmith: Not all disgruntled families are willing to speak up to the SM or adult leadership, at least not in my experience. They may talk to one another, but that's just gossip and not productive. Maybe I should clarify what I mean by leave quietly: don't talk up the move, don't put down the troop, but clearly communicate to those who need to know the reasons why a boy is leaving.

What EagleInKY said Good advice, particularly about leaving quietly. We left quietly, but our son did leave with a friend who was also looking. This was actually the hard part for my husband and I--we didn't want to create problems by leaving and seeming to want to hurt the troop. Our reasons were made known to the SM and CR, and that was it. In spite of our leaving quietly, in spite of not speaking poorly about the troop but simply moving on, some nasty rumors were begun. We were stunned, but it simply confirmed that this was the right time to move on.