Laurie

Eamonn asked: But still we seem to lose a lot of adults. Is this going on in your area? What plans do you have to retain new people? I can't speak for the district or council, but in the pack that I serve, I work hard at making sure our den leaders know when training is and encourage them to go, acknowledge their efforts as often as possibly, thank them publicly for taking training (the boys and families should know this, right?), and work alongside them when they need a hand. This is how I view my role as CM, to work with the DLs, and I love doing it. Have we lost anyone this year? No. Instead, I recruited 2 new leaders the past pack year and four new leaders this current pack year. How? I spent time with these people, got to know them--it was all during Cub events--and learned what their frustrations and their hopes were for Cubs. I asked them what they signed their sons up for. I then, after a few conversations, went to them and asked them to consider being a leader. At the time we had no CR, so we were pretty much on our own. That bothered me, and I brought it to our DE's attention and asked for advice--with the CC's blessing for he didn't even know what a CR was yet This led to a simple solution: the other unit at the CO had a CR, so I called him. He was happy to serve this unit too, and he and I had met, and he was trusting my judgement on many of the new leaders--knowing of our conversations. Now, all leaders are trained. They in turn each want to recruit more leaders and more youth. They are excited, motivated, and just super people. Our unit is struggling though, for it is small and we had lower than usual loss in February, but a loss of some youth just the same. Most likely they'll return in the fall, but for now, I'm just glad we have leaders who refuse to give up. You know what really got them excited? Training! We now have the most people at roundtable too, and I have to tell you--roundtable is more of a chat time with announcements than anything else, but it is a valuable time to meet other leaders and brainstorm together on how to improve each unit. Our plans? Simple--keep the focus on building relationships with the adults while developing the best possible Cub program. Only time will tell if this will work, but we're giving it our best shot. This time though, new recruits will be introduced to the CR to meet and to obtain an application from him rather than me.

Twocubdad, you seem to be the type of person who would find leadership selection to be fairly simple without it being so complicated. You also are not the norm I say that in the nicest possible way--it is a compliment in case you wonder. For me it would be easy to do this too; I've worked as a volunteer coordinator in a non-profit and have experience in this area. I also worked in another youth group that basically made us "jump through hoops" (for lack of a better term) in ensuring the right candidate was in place for the right position. The benefit in this is that it made it easier to avoid having leaders who simply weren't cut out for the role they filled. In one of the units I serve, we have a CC who took the position "just because it was open"--nothing at all was known of him. In this unit, there is now a problem brewing because this one person is pretty much on a power trip. He has little experience or knowledge but claims to know all the right answers and to have the power to make things work the way he believes they should. Had this person been chosen, rather than just taking an open position, this problem may have been avoided. This, to me, is the single greatest benefit in leadership selection. It is also a good tool for those who are not experienced in organizing leadership and/or who are uncomfortable with it.

SR540Beaver, with all due respect, it is not always so easy to find these documents. I have done many searches on National's site, and I have had great difficulty finding things that, thankfully, others have shared links to. It is a hard site to navigate which is too bad, for there is a lot of good information to be found there. Would I call the hard-to-find items secret? Nah, just hard to find. Would I call some other documents secret? No, because they aren't, but perhaps, as the most recent post indicated, they are on a need-to-know basis. I do not need to see everything the BSA has; that would be the same as reading inter-office memorandums. They are for the intended recepient, not the general public. Then there are those items that can be hard to get hold of, but it's usually--in my experience anyway--due to too little staff handling too many requests.

FOG said: "By-laws and handbooks won't help in this situation. I know too many Scouters who have been trained and trained and been through more training but yet want to run the program their way. They justify it by saying, "If we don't do it, it won't get done" or "the boys are capable of doing . . ." If you have Scouters who have run amok, look to your UC or DC for help." I agree and will add one thing to the list: some say the book doesn't work and anyone who thinks so is living in an ideal world rather than the real word. Before calling the UC or DC (not a bad idea at all), please talk to the SM about your concerns. Be specific, kind, and understand that the SM often hears complaints but not always from someone willing to help out. That is frustrating! So, talk to him (or her). If things are still not right, you do have choices: call the council for the names of the UC or DC (as a parent, you certainly may--my DE tells me he often hears from parents) or look for another troop that is functioning as it should. The council offices can help you locate a new troop.

Hi Mrs. Smith, and a belated welcome to the forums! I have noticed from some of your questions that you may be new to leadership. So many of your questions sound like those I asked only a year ago I wonder if you have had an opportunity to take any training, to view Fast Starts if not full training, or have the Scoutmaster or Cub Scout Leader Books? These are very helpful tools that I refer to often, and there are many policies, procedures, and how-tos listed in each. I serve in two units: one uses the books I named but decided against by-laws (the books cover what we need to know, and we pass it on--hopefully as a parent info book this fall), the other does not use the BSA materials very much but does have by-laws that it doesn't follow. Interestingly enough, having those by-laws has created confusion rather than eliminate it. It's a shame for someone clearly worked hard to create them. In any case, my point in all of this is this: if you use the BSA materials, you'll have all the info you need. The worksheets in each of the named books take you through planning out meetings, budgets, outings, etc. I get the impression you are seeking to ensure that you are well prepared for leadership, and I can assure you that if you keep asking questions, you'll have all the info you need and may find that everything is much simpler than we can all tend to make it. I hope something in this message helps you, and yes, if you use the "search" feature here, you will find much in the way of opinions on by-laws. Happy reading

What secret documents? Are you referring to the rules and regulations or the by-laws? I have heard them referred to as secret, but I have a copy of each. If not these, then what I missing? Curious minds want to know

wingnut -- doesn't that hurt the program in any way? It sounds like your unit is strugging. That is how the pack I serve used to do things, basically to just have whoever was available lead. Sadly, those leaders either (1) left--I mean just dropped away--didn't even say anything & wow, what a loss in youth in followed that! or (2) were discouraged, worn out, tired & ready to quit. The problem is that noone was selecting leaders; leaders were basically put into place by fellow leaders because they wanted their sons to have Cubs and it was serve or your son won't have a den. Now, here's the thing: we have all positions filled, have a CR in more than name, and we are working hard on building a relatioship with the CO. We did it all backwards, we know that, and here's what we feel hurts us: we know we need for someone from the CO to assign leadership and to make sure leaders are suited for the roles they are in. Therefore, we have talked to our CR. This year, he did look over the names and did ask a little about the leaders, but he was new too so he was learning as we were. This coming year, as we need to add leaders, he has agreed to get involved more. He is coming to an event in the near future just to meet the adults and the youth. Therefore, though not ideal, it is the beginning of selection rather than leaders getting stuck. The more things are done in the right way, the more satisfied the leaders are. Their commitment has grown, and not one finds it easy to be a leader, but all find it worthwhile and make it a priority. I hope that what Eamonn describes will soon be our method, for so far, all BSA guidelines have strengthened the unit and the leadership.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

pdunbar: I wish you and the unit well in the new CO and hope that the type of problems faced don't come up again. The program really does work by the book, but personality conflicts, agendas (many bring personal agendas into the program too), and simply getting a group of people to agree and then act can be a challenge. FYI: our unit was folding not long ago, but it was saved using the resources BSA makes available and is now well known throughout the area as a success story in following the book. So, I do know a little of the what you speak of in making those choices about trying to make it work where you are or moving on. In our case, it was worth it to stay put and see the program grow into more of what it should be.

pdunbar: "Recently all the members of our troop decided we could not tolerate the actions of our charter rep. He refused to add willing parents to the committtee that was in need of more help. The chartering organization also refused to help. In matter of fact that prohibited one parent from being a merit badge counselor, which thyr really are not allowed to do. We are in the process of being rechartered with a new sponser. No boys are left with the old sponser. Over the years all money and equipment has been raised by the parents and boys. The old chartering organization is refusing to give us the money and equipment. Any suggestion????!!" Several questions were asked, but they remain unanswered: Bob: "Although you are correct that the Charter Organization cannot deny someone to be a merit BAdge counselor, I have to wonder how they even knew of the person applying?" Ed: "Who's on the checking account?" fotoscout: "It would be nice to know why the CO seems to have turned on your Troop? What caused this situation to develop?" Without answering any of these questions, a response in part is: pdunbar: "Just because by scout rules the CO owns everything, I don't know if in the real world is it legal, considering we were forced to make this move when 2 leaders were going to be banned by the CO." I am not certain why the real world would be different from that described in the CO-unit relationship. Forced? Why? The CO must provide approval for each leader; it it does not, then it acted within its rights, so I'm still not sure why this led to being forced. At this point, I'd have first gone to the CR, then to the UC, then to the DE for advice and assistance. It seems that you simply left and started anew. pdunbar: "Final Conclusions!! First thank you to all of you that sympathize with my problem and have offered me very good suggestions. I wish you part of our troop. I must confess that when I first came here I knew that according to BSA policy I knew where we stood. I just wanted to know some suggestions of dealing with the old CO. Old Bob White is correct in his thoughts and reasoning. Notice, I said he was correct! We had decided to leave our CO even if it meant losing everthing......which isn't true in itself......we are leaving with the most important thing.........all of the fine boys in our troop. Thank you again" Then why not do what you expected to? Move on, even if losing everything? It is a valid concern to ask about the gear and funds, but it seems that you knew you'd you lose the gear and funds, left anyway, and then tried to find a way to get it. I think it's great that you have enthusiasm for Scouting and want to serve the boys, but I am troubled by the responses about the CO and the apparent lack of wanting to work it out with those who just might have been able to help. Sympathy for your situation? Yes, I have some for it personally, but I also am a bit frustrated by the lack of answers to questions asked of you, and then the introduction of other topics: ie homosexuality, merit badge and rank issues. There seems to be far more to this in reading through the rest of the thread. I wish the unit you serve well, and I'm very sorry for the problems the unit you serve has faced, but how they came about remains unanswered--and that might have been the key to avoiding this move. It is a shame that things had to progress this far. (This message has been edited by Laurie)

When we rechartered, the DE sat us down at roundtable and really stressed the need to get the paperwork in on time, and then he talked us through the how-tos of the paperwork (I was so glad he did that--what a help!). He told us that the clock for tenure would roll back to "0" if we were late. There would have been no change in leadership or youth members, meeting place, etc. but once charter ends, it starts at zero when a new unit forms or an old one gets the paperwork in. Is tenure what you are asking about? Or did I just answer a question that was not asked? p.s. I met a former den mother from this pack--the 70's I believe. She sent the paperwork and awards she and her husband had earned to us for pack history purposes. We apparently moved, but in knowing the current CO's history, the building wasn't around when the pack began. But I haven't a clue as to how this all worked out. I surely wish I did!

Wow, that is one buried document! You know what irks me about it? If National is this concerned about web sites (there are sooo many!) and images used, they sure they make it difficult to find this info.

Thank you for this information.

If we don't set goals and help other people to set goals as well as making them accountable for meeting these goals - Aren't we just wasting our time? Very well said Eamonn! I heartily agree; there is nothing to be gained by talking about, thinking about, or wishing for something to be done when we can get up, learn what we need to do, plan it out and talk it out just enough to set those goals, communicate those goals, and then get moving to meet them/help each other meet them.

I would thank the backpack company/individual for considering the request and taking the time to reply.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

The annual charter agreement reads in part: "The chartered organization agrees to... Provide adequate facilities for the Scouting unit(s) to meet on a regular schedule with time and place reserved." So, does this mean rent-free? Or just that the space it there?

Eek--my typos! I hope my message is clear. My words are a mess: "Try to look beyond your personal feelings of them, identify what is hurting your unit--particulary in how you serve the youth--and then sit try going this route." I meant sit down and discuss them (the issues/concerns), after you identify them. In doing that, personal feelings of the volunteers involved need to be put aside and issues focused on.

You probably can't do anything at all about other units. If your CO and the CR are not involved, then you lack the support needed. However, go directly to the District Commissioner, voice your concerns about how your unit is being effected, and ask for advice on how to work through this. The way you speak of the volunteers here may be reflected in how you speak to them now; that won't help you. Try to look beyond your personal feelings of them, identify what is hurting your unit--particulary in how you serve the youth--and then sit try going this route. If meeting with the District Commissioner does not help, then next go to your DE and try the same thing. My DE likes pizza and would gladly meet for lunch If that does not work, then go to the SE and repeat the process. I have found that when verbal communications don't work but it is an important issue, a letter will often help. I rarely need to go this route, but having needed to seek help in going "up the ladder" so to speak, I have found that once things are worked out and I show that I am willing to work as well as to complain, that I now have many letters of thanks to send. And do try to find something good to say; that is one of the best ways to "get someone's ear".

Oh Eamonn, I'm so sorry. I am very glad though that you and this young man had time together, for it seems that you have touched each other's lives in a good way.

I got my copy at the council Scout shop. It has a turqoise color cover, it titled Membership Committee Guide, cost roughly $4, and I think this is the number you'd need: 33080D. It is not in reference to units, but I found it helpful when we addressed how to improve unit membership. It is a council and district membership committee guide if that helps to locate it when looking for it. These district and council committee guide books have proven helpful at a unit level for both my husband and me, and the one we use the most is the advancement book. Just thought I'd point that out if you're going shopping

Manyirons--that's super that you are going so prepared to meetings. I came across this last night when looking for something else: "The Boy Scouts of America -- A Membership Organization The federal charter from Congress charges the Boy Scouts of America to make its program available to all who are eligible, but recognizes that young people must become members in order to derive the benefits available from the Scouting program. Those who administer the program must, therefore, serve the membership and also actively and purposefully recruit new members. Since ours is a membership organization, we must seek opportunities to retain it and to increase it. The inculcation of high values and the acceptance of the philosophy offered by the Boy Scouts of America through its program touch young people's lives after they become members. Those who believe youngers need what we have to offer will redouble efforts to touch the lives of as many as possible." This is from page 1 of The Membership Committee Guide of the Boy Scouts of America. Maybe this will help as it addresses the BSA as a membership organization. It would be hard, if not impossible, for non-members to deliver a program to its members, at least IMO.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

Ed, that is correct. But it does address districts and units: "Guidelines for district and unit sites, and the decision as to whether districts and/or units may maintain officially representative sites at all, are completely at the discretion of the council. If these sites are permitted, and especially if the council site provides links to them, it is highly recommended the council provide guidelines for these sites and to recognize and link only to those sites that meet the council's guidelines. Guidelines and advice provided in this document may be appropriate for districts and units as well, so councils may consider passing this information along with any additional council guidelines." "Unit Sites. It is not recommended that councils acknowledge "official" sites for units. There are currently tens of thousands of unit Web sites on the Internet, and it would be difficult for a council to allocate sufficient resources to monitor all the various sites developed by units in its area. Furthermore, since most units lack adequate resources to develop respectable and safe Web sites, a vast majority of unit sites are wrought with safety and liability issues that could become problems for the council were the sites endorsed as officially representative." Two very important considerations that kind of leaped at me: first, run it by council to see if they will approve the site. Second, it is recommended that unit sites not even be acknowledged though--for reasons listed on that page. Kind of a catch 22, but if we put up sites, and if council isn't saying no to it, then we should at least know what the national guidelines are. This is just my opinion.

I took a quick look through the Scoutmaster Handbook, and I saw two distinct groups of people: parents who may help in certain ways (usually driving for a trip or providing instruction at one meeting on a specific topic) and troop committee. This is done repeatedly, and though it is not a rule, it does imply that parents may help (in what appear to be one-time helps) AND that there is a committee (ongoing consistent support). May I ask if someone is challenging you on this? And is this helping at all?

You can use free hosting provided right here--just look over to the menu at the right for the Scouter.com free web hosting link. We had web space donated to us by a Scouter's business website, and since it's kid-friendly, that worked out great.

Me again I like the "cute" Cub colors. My husband likes either the black pages or the very subtle "clean" look for Scouts. I think it's a matter of personal preference, BUT it needs to be easy to read and quick to load. Info: I like to visit a site related to Scouting that tells me something about the unit/council hosting the site. A little history is always interested. Some photos, so long as they load quickly, are neat too. Most importantly, ease of use. A user friendly site is one I will look through; if I can't navigate with ease, I get frustrated and move on. You'll do fine By the way, the site I developed is here (and the disclaimers -- a new thing I learned about in reading the link I gave to you -- are coming soon): http://www.ampwares.com/scouts

Hops, this is a link that was sent to me when I had similar questions: http://www.scouting.org/webmasters/standards/index.html It is geared toward council sites, but it does address district and unit sites as well. It appears as though you would need to clear this with the council. I have not been told no by council, so I went ahead and put our site up. In doing so, I followed much of the council site suggestions. I would never use a photograph without written permission, so I had a form that I made up that each parent signed allowing me to use their son's photos in any medium, to use first names only--though not with the photos, and that sort of thing. No parent objected; all signed. On the Good Turn For America site, there is a form you might find helpful. As we take part in each new activity, I'll carry my digital camera and a folder filled with blank "Talent Release Forms". They can be found here: http://www.goodturnforamerica.org/ Choose "News Stories" then "Talent Release Form". I hope this helps some; it's not as clear an answer as I personally would like, but if you get the ok to go for it, just have permission slips handy. That never hurts anyway.