Laurie

Oh boy, can I ever relate to this one. Since your son is unhappy with the troop, ask him what he would like to do. We've been there, not too long ago in fact, and the transition was not smooth. Visiting district events and taking part in district-wide training exposed our son to other troops, other Scouts, and other leaders. One man in particular got his attention because he was sincere and remembered his name and that he'd recently been injured--little things but important nevertheless. So our son asked if he could visit this man's troop, not even knowing that he was a SA, just that he was somehow involved and he liked the way he treated him. He visited the troop, and he came home happy, excited, and ready for the next week's meeting. He admitted later that he didn't expect to like it, that he really didn't want to leave but thought in seeing another troop he'd find his was ok afterall. Quite an admission, I think. So, in a nutshell, your son already seems to know it's time to move on. Get him thinking. He has said he's unhappy, now get him to identify what it is that he does not like. Ask him what he would change if he could change something. Suggest he think through what Scouting should be (the handbook helps) and then compare that to what he is currently part of. Ask him if he has talked to his SM or other adult leaders about his concerns. Ask him if he would like to. And, this is the hard one, do not offer your opinion. Simply ask those rather open-ended questions to get him to think about what he really wants in a troop, what he can and cannot do to make a change, and what he should do next.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

OGE, Flag Football is still part of the Cub Scout Sports and Academics Program as of the 2002 revision (the book that I have). However, I think the book was revised again after I purchased it, so I don't know if the newer revision still has Flag Football. Good suggestion to call the DE. CM Bill, if this is still part of Cub Scouts Sports and Academics, then if you can get a copy of the Flag Football page from this book, it has the rules, the official's signals, and the field layout--all simple. It also provides a section on additional resources. By playing and learning the rules, a Cub can earn his beltloop and pin.

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/chart.html I was taught to limit firebuilding to Webelos or adult leaders during BALOO. I just looked up the chart we were given (link above), and cooking outdoors & firebuilding are limited to Webelos and older according to the guidelines. The chart starts out with this: Age- and rank-appropriate guidelines have been developed based on the mental, physical, emotional, and social maturity of Boy Scouts of America youth members. These guidelines apply to Cub Scout packs, Boy Scout troops, Varsity Scout teams, and Venturing crews. Hope this helps

Having worked as treasurer for a non-profit that had received designated funds from United Way only, here is a suggestion. We had people call us who had donated to UW and designated the charity to confirm the money was received. I could confirm that because I would receive a sheet of paper listing names and amounts. So, if you do designate funds, unless things have changed, you can call the charity or organization that you donated to and ask if they can confirm that your donation was received. The one thing that upset quite a few people who called is how much less money we received than they had given, but that is due to the administration costs.

Barry, I double-checked our council's camping policies. JLTC is held at one of the council camps, so this is a campground policy, not necessarily designed for any one particular activity. FYI, since you're looking into this, here is what this council states: Council camping policy: B. Intermediate Exit and Return - Should your unit (or any individual) need to leave camp either temporarily or permanently, you must notify the Camp Ranger (or Campmaster) if available, or record your exit (and return) in the camp log book. I also looked up the driving portion of the G2SS because I thought Scouts could drive to events. The on-line page addressing this is here: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss12.html . 4. The driver must be currently licensed and at least 18 years of age. Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership of an adult (at least 21 years of age) tour leader, a youth member at least 16 years of age may be a driver, subject to the following conditions: a. Six months' driving experience as a licensed driver (time on a learner's permit or equivalent is not to be counted) b. No record of accidents or moving violations c. Parental permission granted to the leader, driver, and riders As for bikes, I was fortunate enough to have Health and Safety Training offered about a month ago, and this was our small group challenge: biking. There's plenty in the G2SS on bikes, just not under the heading transportation or camping. Since there are 13 detailed policies in bold print, I'll just provide the link: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss09.html . scoutldr, IMO the difference in how one gets to a meeting and how one gets to a camp depends upon whether it's a unit activity or not. The G2SS begins with: The purpose of the Guide to Safe Scouting is to prepare adult leaders to conduct Scouting activities in a safe and prudent manner. The policies and guidelines have been established because of the real need to protect members from known hazards that have been identified through eighty-plus years of experience. Some kids walk to meetings, others come with friends, others drive themselves--but the bottom line in this is that until they reach the meeting place, they are not part of a unit activity. If I'm off in my understanding, I trust I'll be corrected

No. As in I have not kept score. I am sorry that Bob and Eamonn have left, but I understand that. It got downright nasty in places on the forums, and I will miss both of them because they both have a lot to offer. My hope is that Bob, Eamonn, Dave, and many others who have not posted in awhile come back. The campfire is much nicer when more join in, for there is so much more to learn, at least IMO Zahnada, good to "see" you--you've been missed!

Our council camps send us permission forms specifically for this purpose with a statement to the effect that no one may leave camp property without signed permission and without signing out. They may need to be accompanied by an adult as well--I'd have to check that. Since I work mostly with Cubs, we only have to worry about those families who leave just prior to cleanup. The Scouts have the same policy though from all that I have read in paperwork sent home.

I've spent little time with Scouts so far, but in that time, I have felt privileged so far to see boys (my own son included) make choices that were hard to make but that were good for them. Even in Scouting that can happen. Now, when it comes to Cubs, the way the boys' faces light up when I (I'm the CM) grab my red bag (known to all now as the awards bag) and put up the Scout sign for attention. They know something fun is coming. The silly skits, the laughter, the loud and often off-key songs--what fun! Who says singing isn't cool?! Seeing a boy go from shy and nervous and keeping his face in his book as much as possible to requesting time to give a 3-minute talk. Wow! The discussions with the boys, Cubs and Scouts, which tend to teach me so much about them and to also give me a fresh perspective on things. Seeing the world through the youth--what a blessing! Washing cars with the Cubs. Working side by side with a boy who has never washed a car, guiding him through it, is a wonderful time of fun as well as productive. Working alongside him a month later, washing another car, seeing his confidence as he says "see, I can do it now". Going to a music concert with the Cubs, where most fall asleep, but I see hands waving and look over to spot one of our Cubs conducting with a great big smile on his face. Spending time with my sons. Having both of them tell me after meetings or events, "Mom, you are awesome"! What do I love? In a nutshell, I love working with youth, and the best part of it is knowing that I have a small part in helping them to find their feet as they try out new and different things and grow in confidence and character doing so.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

That does sound like an overall good week. I'm glad for you and the troop that it was!

Kenk, I can see how the more subtle difficulties could be challenging. Good for you for talking to the den to explain what's up. One thing I've noticed in children is that when they don't understand someone who is in some way different, they can be frightened or intimidated by that. That often leads to the cruel or simply careless but hurtful remarks. When children do understand, they can show an amazing amount of compassion and understanding to others. I've seen this happen many times, yet I'm still surprised--pleasantly so--when it does happen. Having worked with youth over the past 23 years, I've had the opportunity to learn a lot from them. Educating them helps them to understand and that leads to acceptance because they "get it". Some may remain unkind, but I sincerely hope this will be a turning point for your son. This month two of my sons were at daycamp--one working it and one a camper. They each witnessed incidents that, in their words "freaked them out". It seems a boy who usually behaves well has some sort of a problem that causes him to suddenly throw himself around and need to be restrained. Day one, the kids only saw this happen, saw that his guardian was with him and restrained him by holding him down, but they didn't understand it and wanted to keep their distance. To be honest, I was pretty uneasy when I heard this too. Day two things were explained to the boys at camp, and beginning that day all of them relaxed around this one boy, had fun with him, but when he has his episodes (for lack of a better word--I don't know what his problem was), they simply continued on knowing someone was taking care of him and he'd join them when able. My older son wanted so much to help him, but he was told this was just something his guardian would handle. He went out of his way to be nice to him, so I saw a change just recently in how kids respond to other kids once they know what's up. Hang in there, and I hope Webelos and then Scouts becomes much more fun for him!

I guess I should clarify: I'm not referring to this part of the forums alone. I mean all of them--debates/disagreements take place in Uniforms, Working With Kids, and others, not just in Issues and Politics. As for Issues and Politics, I just re-read the Disclaimer, for that's a good point that the youth can too. Interestingly enough, it seems my post is now rather redundant to those reading the disclaimer. Part of the disclaimer is the the "rules of decorum". The rules of decorum are spelled out in http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=5358 and are to keep the debate honest and treat each other with respect. Summed up, in Scouter's Terry's words in that thread, "act Scout-like". (This message has been edited by Laurie)

From time to time on the forums, it seems that things can get heated. Some topics generate more heat than others, but it's not the controversies or disagreements that concern me nearly so much as the assumptions and judgements made of other people and how things are said. One thing I try to keep in mind is that these forums are for Scouts too, not just the Scouters. So one way to measure the worth of my words is this: If a Scout were to imitate my reactions to issues and the way I treat others on the forums, would I be confident that I set a good example or would I cringe that I'd set such a poor example? The other thing that helps is simply following the Scout Oath and Law. As a Scouter, I have agreed to conduct myself according to the Oath and Law. I have an obligation to do so, not just during my time with the youth, but also when alone or when typing a post in these forums or whereever I might be. I don't know who's reading, and there are many lurkers (just look at the times there are 3000-4000 active users but so few posts!), and they could be the youth we serve. Any other thoughts on this? p.s. Scouter Terry, thanks for making these forums available. In spite of those threads that can spiral into a confusing assortment of accusations and the like, this is a very helpful place--a virtual campfire that I enjoy sharing with so many in Scouting from around the world.

I don't want anything from you except what I would want and expect from any other Scouter: to get along by both following the Scout Oath and Law. You, Jason, have shown contempt for me and several others, and in that you not only give cause for me and others to question what you profess to be truth, but you also fail to demonstrate Scout Spirit.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

I'm with the others Kenk, hang in there. I'm so sorry for the troubles your son is having now with the other kids. Somehow in Scouts that's just so sad to me. I'm with OGE on this in respect to the adult leadership. Get to know some leaders in the troops, and find out how they deal with different issues. I have a nephew who has had cancer for the past 4 1/2 years now, and he has remained in Cubs while losing his hearing and then his ability to walk but never his spirit. He lost his hair, got real thin, then got a full face, and has continued to change in appearance. Because he can't hear well in groups, even with 2 hearing aids which are visible, he often can't respond either. There are times when he had little quirks due to his treatments. The kids were intimidated by this, but it was the adults who made the difference. They spoke openly about the needs of this young boy, and then my sister and brother-in-law spoke to the boys. Bit by bit, the kids began to find ways to communicate. They have a good time. The kids cared, but they needed adult guidance. He is sure to face many challenges going into a troop, but he's going for it, and the adult leadership, which my family is part of, is behind him. When they cheer him on, the kids cheer him on. You can find this too. Please keep looking. What your son is experiencing now is not Scouting at its finest. Please don't be offended at this, but have you thought of remaining den leader instead of CM in order to spend more time with your son during pack meetings too? Or don't you think that would make a difference? One other thought. I have found our Unit Commissioner to be a valuable asset to me personally as I serve as CM. We have become friends. He understands Scouting well, though he's the first to admit that he doesn't know it all. What he does is to offer great advice when asked, to be quietly supportive, to simply be there. If you have one you can talk to, I'd see (1) what advice he/she may offer and (2) if they can help you to get in touch with troops as you look ahead.

I don't remember how I got into Scouting, but I do remember wearing by Brownie uniform and being very proud of it. Those earliest memories are of flag ceremonies and songs and of something special I got to do with my mom. She was one of our leaders, and that was pretty cool to me As the years progressed, I was excited at all the new things to try, especially the first aid and camping, which was all pretty challenging. I went for it all, and my favorites were the first aid and camping badges/activities. One exception: learning to decorate a cake was fun. Sadly our troop folded due to lack of interest when I was in junior high school.

Maybe NJ was trying to say that those who are Jewish are offended when they are criticized for having an incomplete religion? He has as much right to say that he is offended by how he is viewed for his beliefs as anyone else does. Many of us, regardless of our faith or even without a faith, have stated that what we believe matters deeply to us and is inseparable from who we are. NJ--and most people who have been here for some time--know exactly what I believe, for I have shared it in the past. However, if my saying what I personally believe offends someone, then that's a shame because it's not my intent. On the other hand, if I try to convince someone they are wrong, tell them they don't get it, in some way put down their belief system regardless of whether I agree with it or not, they'd be offended and rightly so. It truly is possible to agree to disagree without attacking one another. Additionally, to just blow off someone's feelings by excusing myself is not only something I personally consider to be quite unlike Christ, and regardless of what faith a person has, I dare say most would agree that this is not in the least Scout-like. Using tact while being direct, disagreeing without being degrading--it's possible to do. I have been ridiculed and even threatened for my faith, yet it's still my faith. Those who mock what I believe do hurt me, but that's life, and that's their choice. I will not, however, ridicule or threaten or in any way put down another for his faith even if I don't embrace it myself. I don't see any good coming from that, and the God I know would not treat others with such disrespect.

Good question Hops. So far the only objections I get at the Cub level are that it takes too much time (kids only meet once a week for an hour and field trips are optional), that sports is more important, that homework comes first (and we seem to have a few kids who struggle with getting homework done). The Cubs don't seem to mind the rules they've been exposed to and they love to do flag ceremonies and volunteer. I don't have enough experience to know much about troops yet, but I've seen the same boys go to a troop lacking in patrols, program, and rules then to a troop that was opposite. Guess which was cooler? Interestingly enough, the lack of rules made some uneasy. Sports is the biggest problem I hear of so far.

Thank you Roster. In answer to: "In regard to having a passion for faith and the BSA, we diverge slightly. I have PASSION for my faith and God. I like the BSA. Theyre not on the same level to me, not even close. Perhaps I misinterpreted your words here. What I said is: "When it comes to the BSA, I can indeed be passionate about my faith and convictions, just as others can be passionate about their faith and convictions which might be very different, but we all should keep the main focus on the program -- and the program is the one thing all of us in Scouting have in common." Just in case that's not clear, I do not equate my faith and convictions with my role as a Scouter. I was making two points: one about faith, the other about Scouting. They go together, but the level of commitment, time, energy, passion that goes into the BSA should never exceed that which goes into faith--IMO anyway.

Funny that Gettysburg should come up now as a topic--my husband was just saying that we should go this summer. I'd love to. The biggest problem is the little one. Since we still need to provide naptime and since those little legs walk a mile at a time and then need a break, how "stroller friendly" is Gettsyburg? Today I took my kids, ages 2-12, to Valley Forge National Historic Park. We had a blast! We didn't do all that much walking today, at least not as much as I'd hoped, but the kids all earned the Junior Park Ranger certificate and badge. I highly recommend this to anyone going to VF, by the way, because the book guides you through the 10-mile car tour. We bought the CD, popped it in during the drive, and had a "guide". We're hoping to go back, just me and the older 2, to try out the 9-mile orienteering hike. In doing this, we can earn the VF Historic Trails Award. What I like about the car tour is that we can add as much hiking/walking as we like, but with a little one to consider, it's nice to know that the walking can be limited or a stroller used. Our oldest son transferred troops, and he's pretty bummed because this troop isn't going on the Pilgrimage either. So guess who he asked to take him? I'm game Our Cub son went to Daniel Boone Homestead for the Encampment last month with my husband and several other Cub families. They liked it, but our son said he'd enjoy just going camping again, that he didn't need all the activities. Sleeping in a tent, cooking outdoors, hiking--that's enough for him. My husband said he thought I'd love it there though because of all the things to see: a working saw mill was his favorite. I'd like to go, but just to the Homestead for a day. Anyone been there? Fun thread!

"I would certainly hope we don't sit around the campfire and bad mouth or promote Republicans, Democrats, conservatives, liberals, the ACLU, various religions, etc. to the boys." I agree with this too and have been thinking that in reading this thread. This is like a gaper delay on the forums: I keep looking because I can't seem to stop myself from looking at the wreck even though the damages and injuries are something I'd rather not see. In trying to think of how this could relate to Scouting, this conversation seems to be a good example of how not to treat fellow Scouters and Scouts.

Achilleez, that is the dilemna, isn't it? Perhaps the very issue that Hunt was addressing when he first posted? I have a strong faith that is not shared by many of my family members and friends. I respect the person who has a different faith and the right of each person to choose his/her faith. My religious teaching is that all people are valuable and precious as well as that all people have the capability to do evil things. In other words, we are equally valuable, precious, wonderful beings who are equally capable of evil. I've shared my faith here before, so I won't repeat myself. But respecting a person, caring about a person, that is not the same thing as accepting for myself all that that person believes--not when it comes to religion, not when it comes to politics, not when it comes to how to raise children or choose a career path or plan out the day. When it comes to the BSA, I can indeed be passionate about my faith and convictions, just as others can be passionate about their faith and convictions which might be very different, but we all should keep the main focus on the program -- and the program is the one thing all of us in Scouting have in common.

First I need to talk to Her That Must Be Obeyed. She would end up being home alone for a week. Which she doesn't like. Eamonn, though you are concerned about your son's interest, your wife matters too. This is a huge commitment, and though you have the vacation time, is it worth it to your family as a whole? Second I think that trying to get the youth staff up to snuff at such a late date is going to be next to impossible. So, if the youth staff are there, ready to do the job, but not up to snuff, will they end up having learned something or will they come away frustrated? Third I don't have much use for a ASM who sees his role as admin. Is there such a thing? If so, sign me up But in the meantime, it sounds as though this person may be in the wrong position. Perhaps committee is better. But how it relates to this week? It sounds like a frustration and time to consider he reevaluate his position and commitment. Forth, so far no one has said a word about the 26 Scouts that are signed up. It seems that they are almost an after thought. I don't think the ASM admin has done any admin in that department. Ok, if these 26 Scouts signed up and are an afterthought, it sounds as though this course was not designed for them. Who put it together? Is it worth holding it now --and I stress NOW-- if it is not set up to teach these youth what they signed up to learn. Don't they pay for this too? Our youth do, and it's not cheap. My thoughts, for what they are worth: reschedule with the appropriate leadership in place in order to provide a program designed for the Scouts who pay for and commit to attending. Be honest and let them know there was a staffing problem, and that if the course were held now, it would not be what it could be. Let them know that in the same way the BSA only solicits funds in fundraising for something of value, you will not accept their funds for training when you know it won't be what it can and should be. Is this course one that may be held in 2 weekends as opposed to one full week? That may help with the timing, or it may create a new issue. Eamonn, tough one, but if this were given to me to do, and I knew that I was the only one prepared and that my own personal preparation was not the best it could be, all things considered, I'd have to reschedule. One other thought: are there enough adults/leaders in place to provide for the needed safety measures? I haven't a clue what they would be in this setting, but that question came to mind.

Trail Pounder, no by blunt I mean very direct--and it was a poor way to say it for it ended up offending you. I am sorry for that. And touche--I write too much for I find it hard to say anything direct without offending others, but apparently length of posts is offensive in itself. BadenP, that's too bad because the advice you gave is advice you apparently haven't taken -- at least not in the post publicly naming and criticizing other Scouters.

"On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God..." I wonder if it matters whether worshipping Baal is a modern practice or not, or even if it considered a true religion. When it comes to the BSA, isn't the bottom line that each Scout and Scouter be able to say for him/herself: I am doing my duty to God? This whole discussion seems to be more of a debate of which way of doing duty to God is best versus whether or not a person is simply doing his/her duty to God. My faith defines who I am, so I can't remove it or put it aside. However, I will not using Scout events or meetings as a time to preach either. To this day, most people in the units I serve have no clue what church I go to or what my faith is, but they all know that I believe that being reverent is important. Pack meetings open with prayer. This is new, and it came about at my prompting, and it has led to some interesting discussions. Discussions of God that come up with yout are always referred by me to the boy's family or religious leader. The adults who ask what I believe have been told. If they haven't asked, they still don't know. What they do know is that is that doing duty to God is important, but how one defines God is left to each family. My duty to God is just that: my duty. If I am lacking when it comes to being trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, or reverent, then call me on it. Just don't expect that the way I do my duty to God, so long as it fits within the context of the Scout Law, to conform to the way you do your duty. Who is right? You? Me? In my opinion, within the BSA, it doesn't matter. In my opinion, it is in my heart that it matters, and then in how I carry out my duty that matters. That's it.

BadenP, this will most likely sound like an insincere welcome, but nevertheless, welcome to the forums. I re-read the "True Religion" and "A Scout Is Reverent" threads, wondering how the people you named were so rude. One didn't even post in those threads, and that's the one I have found to be blunt to the point of being rude. Those who did post weren't -- IMO anyway -- harsh. But I could be reading the wrong threads. I have the opportunity to be helped in some significant ways from Bob, OGE, and Eamonn as a new Scouter, and the advice they have provided has proven solid. It in turn has helped our unit to grow, and as our DE said at a fairly recent roundtable "to go from folding to strong". Each has encouraged me to use the resources available, to stick with the Scout Oath and Law in various situations, and has stressed the importance of working with local volunteers and professionals rather than relying on their words/ideas or the forums in general. Within this thread, is there something said that you believe to be incorrect? If so, what would your advice be?