Kudu

I'm with OGE on this one: Start 'em young. In large Webelos III Eagle Mills, the very best thing about backpacking is that real Backwoods Adventure filters out all the indoor adults and indoor boys. 1) Expense: Why buy two of everything? Some High Adventure Troops use the same lightweight equipment for BOTH backpacking AND "plop" camping: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/cooking/lightweight.htm 2) Weight: We park the water (and some equipment for the very small Scouts) at the destination, in areas where none is available. Older Scouts carry more than their share of the load. Our simple "Ten Things" Equipment List ("Pack It, Wear It, Share It, Leave It Home") works well for fair weather in the deep south: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/10_things.htm 3) Distance: We started with less than 1/2 mile, just to wean them from the Troop trailer. Now we divide into two Patrols with a common destination: The mature Scouts pick their own route and hike about eight miles per day (the Baden-Powell Patrol Hike standard) without any adult supervision. This ad hoc Patrol is self-selected (by invitation only): Mostly older Scouts with a couple cool small Scouts (the older boys carry most of their weight). The less mature Scouts hike in the general vicinity of the adults, on a shorter route: Sometimes two miles per day for Camping Merit Badge, sometimes just a mile. We all meet up in the afternoon, where the Patrols camp at least 300 feet apart. Here are some YouTube videos of us (note the open use of electronics on the trail): http://www.youtube.com/user/At300Feet?feature=watch 4) Purpose: William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt said "A Hike is a Walk with a Purpose." The same is true for backpacking. Make sure the trip is an adventure with an interesting destination. We started with "Backwoods Fishing Trips." See Theme Hikes: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/hikes/index.htm 5) Poop School: When new Scouts backpack we conduct a comprehensive seminar based on funny stories about how to poop in the woods: How to squat, keep your balance, how to avoid peeing or pooping on your pants, plus tips on the "Sport of Pooping" with practical advice on bombardier accuracy. A report to your Patrol upon your successful application of Poop Theory makes you a Poop School Graduate. A Graduate who then teaches Poop School earns his PhD (yes, Piled Higher and Deeper is still funny to eleven-year-olds). I'm looking for Poop School patches if anyone knows of some pre-existing badges with a possible double meaning.... Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Consider Bob Geier's Lightweight "Cook Group" Method: A "Cook Group" is 3-4 people, with 2 Cook Groups per Patrol. Equipment includes a MSR stove, a "Thelma" brand Patrol fly, 1 "Bake Kit" (backpacker's version of the Dutch oven), and some other quality equipment: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/cooking/lightweight.htm

"What's interestin' here is that we have achieved da forum equivalent of drawing into an inside straight, eh? We have unanimity of opinion here among people who would at least play devil's advocate on the other side over just about any scouting topic. " You all agree because you worship hot house "leadership" formulas that survive only through government-imposed monopolies (like the BSA) or 7.7 trillion dollar "leadership" bail-outs. Baden-Powell designed every rank of Scouting to be tested by an adult-free "Journey" or "Expedition" of increasing difficulty: 8 miles for Second Class, 15 miles for 1st Class, 2 days & 1 night for the equivalent to Star, 20 miles for Life, and 50 miles for Eagle. http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm But any cupcake can become an Eagle Scout without EVER walking into the woods with a pack on his back. The fact that parlour Eagles are not allowed to use leaf blowers or electric screwdrivers is trivial. In a perfect world, RichardB would be asking you to help him understand why a youth planning and executing a 50 mile Expedition can't be expected to recruit qualified adults to do that hazardous walking for him. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Count your blessings! If I was in charge, I would employ Baden-Powell's standards to prohibit Boy Scouts from using ANY tool that they have not personally backpacked 50 miles in to the job site. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Remind me to haul out his "aspirational side-effect" quotes the next time Tahawk pisses and moans about Merit Badge standards.

"BP must be spinning." Baden-Powell is spinning because "Eagle Projects" have nothing to do with B-P's goal: The absolute mastery of Scoutcraft. Currently, the requirements for "Scouting's highest rank" allow any cupcake "leadership" expert to earn Eagle without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back. Simple solution: Eagle Projects should be based on OUTDOOR leadership. Baden-Powell's version of an "Eagle Project" is to plan a 50 mile "Expedition" by land or water (200 miles by horseback)... ...to be undertaken without any "adult association" helicopters, of course "An expedition on foot will cover at least 50 miles in wild country. The 3 nights will be spent at different campsites. "An expedition by water will cover at least 50 miles and the log will cover such points as the state of the river, conditions of banks, obstructions to navigation etc. "An expedition on Horseback will cover at least 200 miles. In wild country, camping at 3 different camp sites. "An expedition, whether on foot or otherwise, must be a test of determination, courage, physical endurance and a high degree of co-operation among those taking part." See "King's Scout (Senior Explorer Badge)": http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm I'm sure that would keep RichardB busy for a while Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

You mean "how to help in case of a runaway horse"? http://inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm What do horses have to do with Boy Scouts and the Outdoor Method? That's not Prepared. For Life.

So what's your favorite Scoutcraft Bashing quote by Robert Mazzuca? Robert Mazzuca: "Did you know that there was a time when to be a First Class Scout--you guys didn't know this I bet--did you guys have to learn how to catch a runaway horse to be a First Class Scout? When was the last time you saw a runaway horse?" Audience response: "Tuesday" Robert Mazzuca: "Tuesday? Whoa! OK. Oh, that's right! This is Amish country, isn't it? So what do we mean by being 'Prepared. For Life'? Obviously we don't have to learn how to catch a runaway horse anymore. That's not an important skill!" http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm Obviously.

Deaf Scouter writes: "*wiping laughter tears I roared laughing at your comment of 'Just keep everyone a minimum of 300 feet apart and the rest takes care of itself. Sorry, couldn't resist'." Um, that's what Baden-Powell's Patrol System is: Patrols 300 feet apart when camping together as a Troop. You only have enough Scouts for one Patrol, but YES, if your one Patrol of Scouts camps 300 feet away from your Patrol of adult leaders, then everything else will fall into place. The fact that you have an SPL in a seven-Scout Troop gives me the impression that have fallen for a bunch of office manager theory. It is as if you, Deaf Scouter, have been asked to coach a soccer team or a football team, so every week you have the boys sit in the end zone and hold elections for new team captains so they learn valuable lessons about "citizenship." Then you spend the rest of practice inspecting their uniforms, explaining the role that nutrition has on fitness, and then testing them on the EDGE Method. So when someone suggests that your boys would learn much more about soccer or football if you taught them how to run around the 300 feet between you and the other end zone? Well you roar with laughter as you wipe the tears from your eyes. Green Bar Bill's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" can be found at the URL below, but let me warn you: The goal of this Patrol Leader Training is to teach your Scouts how to conduct their own Patrol Hikes (and camp) without "adult association" helicopters. They can do this kind of thing on monthly campouts, but it means no more camping close together in the Webelos III End Zone: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net So it results that Scouts' camps should be small -- not more than one Troop camped together; and even then each Patrol should have its own separate tent at some distance (at least 100 yards) from the others. This latter is with a view to developing the responsibility of the Patrol Leader for his distinct unit (Baden-Powell) http://inquiry.net/patrol/index.htm Here's the biggest lesson we learned along the way: just do it (GKlose)

Thanks Kahuna. With your permission I will use your objections for a category of "ethical choices" questions that a Scoutmaster can use on leadership weekends when the film comes out on DVD. I'll try to think of some suggested answers then add some EDGE and other group development questions, and post it at: http://inquiry.net/patrol/training/enders_game.htm Off the top of my head: 1) Ender's Game is science fiction. It takes place in a future time and in space. Do the games they play have anything to do with outdoor Wide Games in a Scout setting? http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm 2) Does anybody in the movie show leadership, or is it just about "selection" and "survival of the fittest"? If so, who is more "fit," Bean or Ender? 3) Do any of the adults ever lead? Why would they manage and create situations in which boys must rise to the level required or get "frozen," or even die? 4) Are the boys merely pre-selected for the type of leadership abilities required by a specific set of circumstances? Or are they selected for their ability to think outside the box as the circumstances change? 5) Have you ever played any Wide Games in which Scouts are left to their own devices, even allowed to "kill" each other in the quest? 6) Could Ender be an example for youth leadership in Scouting? Is he perfect for his situation, or does he need Bean? Ender turns out to be the "chosen one," but he is not even told that the battle against the Buggers is the real thing. Why? Was that good or bad? 7) Ender is picked for certain abilities. What are they? Is he thrown into a meat grinder and manipulated to succeed? If he is merely manipulated, then why didn't the adults think of blowing up the planet themselves? 8) Is there nowhere in the novel an example of adult leadership? If not, to whom do the boys turn for leadership? Why do the adults set up grueling games for the kids to play? 9) Twice in the story Ender sees no solution, so he breaks the rules. What does Bean yell to him both times? ("The Enemy's gate is down!") What does that mean? 10) Finally, the ending is absolutely devastating to Ender. His discovery on the alien planet and the revelations that come with it would completely destroy most young people. How would Bean have reacted? How and when does Bean figure out that the battles are real, and NOT a game? Why does Bean tell Graff not to tell Ender? 11) Was what was done to Ender evil? The basic idea is to come up with something along the lines of the "Master and Commander" DVD guide for Patrol Leader Training weekends: http://inquiry.net/patrol/training/movies.htm (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Eagle92, The audio book version of Ender's Shadow is equally awesome. Something that I did not notice until Orson Scott Card pointed it out: All of the text in the audio books is read in the voice of the character from whose point of view that section of the chapter is written. In other words, if it is from Ender's point of view, then Ender's voice reads not only his side of the dialogue, but Colonel Graff's side of the conversation as well, along with all the "he saids" and the rest of the unabridged text. Ender's Shadow is the same story as Ender's Game, but from the point of view of the younger supporting character, Bean, the tiny Dutch street urchin who becomes Commander of Rabbit Army. His size reminds me of one of my toughest "hooligan" Patrol Leaders. Aramis Knight will portray Bean in the "Ender's Game" film, with Asa Butterfield ("Hugo") as Ender, Harrison Ford as Colonel Graff, and Ben Kingsley as Mazer Rackham: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1731141/ Ender's Shadow is the first book of the "Shadow Saga" consisting of Ender's Shadow, Shadow of the Hegemon, Shadow Puppets, and Shadow of the Giant. The Shadow books are based more on action than the "Speaker for the Dead" series. As Card explains in the Ender's Game audio book postscript, including Ender's Shadow in the film's screenplay brings the story out of Ender's head and into the genre of buddy action films. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction http://inquiry.net/patrol/index.htm

If your hair is short enough, you could wear a copy of Ender's electronic surveillance implant: http://endersgameblog.tumblr.com/

What does this thread have to do with Wood Badge? As the title implies, "Master and Commander" is about leadership: How an adult leader trains thirteen-year-old (13yo) midshipmen to command patrols of grown men in the fog of war. Likewise, the U.S. Marine Corps uses Ender's Game to train midshipmen. As Baden-Powell makes clear in the opening of Scouting for Boys, his Patrol System was inspired by the courage and competency of boys in war: "These boys didn't seem to mind the bullets one bit; they were always ready to carry out orders, though it meant risk to their life every time" (Baden-Powell, "Camp Fire Yarn No.1: Mafeking Boy Scouts"). Baden-Powell invented Wood Badge to teach indoor volunteers how to think like outdoorsmen and train Patrol Leaders how to lead a Patrol of boys into the backwoods at least once a month without adult supervision. Perhaps if Wood Badge participants left the course with the understanding that the unsupervised Wood Badge Patrol Hike is THE primary leadership skill that Baden-Powell intended them to take back to their Patrol Leaders, the connection with war fiction that portrays some (not all) boys as remarkably competent leaders under stress, would be more obvious. I know that even with 50 years of experience, sending a Patrol of boys out without "adult association" is still a daunting responsibility. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Thanks, OGE! Can this Thread be moved to the Wood Badge Forum, as "Ender's Game & Young Leaders"? I've been re-reading Ender's Game, the Shadow series, and Ender in Exile, in anticipation of the film's November 2013 release: http://endersgameblog.tumblr.com/ I'm sure the next edition of Guide to Safe Scouting will include a prohibition against Boy Scout units viewing the movie, because of the graphic scenes of laser tag in zero-gravity. Tampa Turtle writes: "Ah Enders Game. One of the great ones. I tried to turn my son on to it but no luck thus far..." dg98adams writes: "Wanna start him on Enders Game... there is a Comic book series too... but that can be like a bad habit with the cost of comics these days." Yes! The Enders comic books are works of art, but they are expensive. To show how old I am, I had NO idea that such comic "books" are actually hard-cover books! Tampa Turtle writes: "I got him Enders Game in Paperback and e-book. So far no biting." Tell him to skip the Introduction. My Scouts complain that it goes on forever, written for adults who first read it 20 years ago. Like the comic books, Orson Scott Card was was also involved in the production of the excellent audio book version of Ender's Game. It includes a generous postscript in which he talks about the process of writing some of the screenplays for the movie. If the film turns out as good as "Master and Commander," it will be perfect for Troop Leader Training weekends: "The U.S. Marine Corps Professional Reading List makes the novel recommended reading at several lower ranks, and again at Officer Candidate/Midshipman. The book was placed on the reading list by Captain John F. Schmitt, author of FMFM-1 (Fleet Marine Fighting Manual, on maneuver doctrine) for 'provid[ing] useful allegories to explain why militaries do what they do in a particularly effective shorthand way.' In introducing the novel for use in leadership training, Marine Corps University's Lejeune program opines that it offers 'lessons in training methodology, leadership, and ethics as well [....] Enders Game has been a stalwart item on the Marine Corps Reading List since its inception'." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ender's_Game So if none of the Ender's Game media appeal to your son, Tampa, then sign him up for the Marines Speaking of midshipmen, see also "Master & Commander" and leadership training: http://inquiry.net/patrol/training/movies.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

I can't spin off threads or start new ones. I get the following Error Message, any suggestions? Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e14' [Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver] Incorrect syntax near 's'. /forums/post_library.asp, line 91

"the Baden Powell Service Association Has Rovers which is man scouting" The best Boy Scouts think of themselves as men. Scouting's highest award occurs in Rovers, not as a youth award equivalent to "Eagle." An overview of Baden-Powell's Rover program: http://inquiry.net/traditional/rover/handbook/index.htm

I'm trying to spin off an Ender's Game Thread, but I keep getting this: Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e14' [Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver] Incorrect syntax near 's'. /forums/post_library.asp, line 91

"I'll be interested to read other opinions though, especially that of an African antelope with long curly horns.... " I'd say that neither description has anything to do with the "Patrol Method," although the term is commonly corrupted by "leadership" training to mean "Troop Method" (what the entire Troop does together). At best the "Troop Method" includes an active PLC where the Scouts themselves vote on adventures for the entire Troop. The adults point to Patrol Flags, Patrol Competitions, and separate Patrol cooking & cleanup (but squeezed into the confines of a small campground), as evidence of what they think is the "Patrol Method." The "Real" Patrol Method is what Patrols do AWAY from the other Patrols: http://inquiry.net/patrol/index.htm You won't know if either Troop uses the "Real" Patrol Method until you go camping with them. Do the Patrols camp Baden-Powell's minimum standard of 150-300 feet apart? Do the mature Patrols take off on separate, unsupervised Patrol Hikes without the other Patrols? Both Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" and Green Bar Bill's "Real" Patrol Method require strong Patrol Leaders. Lacking in the descriptions of both Troop 1 and Troop 2, is a strong boy-leader in control. Commonly the lack of strong Patrol Leaders is due to too much emphasis on "Leadership Development" theory: Where a constant stream of new leaders (who "need" a Position of Responsibility) are voted in every six months, leaving the Scoutmaster to "mentor" weak leaders as in Troop 1; or with nobody in control, as in Troop 2. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net(This message has been edited by Kudu)

We in the Traditional Scouting movement pressed hard in the mid-1990s for what is now known as the "Centennial Uniform." In fact my comparison chart describing the benefits of such a radical change was the very first page of the Traditional Scouting Website: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm The basic ideal "Traditional" BSA Uniform (not to be confused with a Baden-Powell Uniform): 1. The color scheme should be subdued, with no bright patches. At the time, the Oscar de la Renta shirt was known in the rest of the world as the "Christmas Tree Uniform." 2. A Boy Scout Uniform should scream "Outdoor High Adventure." 3. The pants should be practical in the outdoors (as were Boy Scout Uniforms in the early Scouting Movement), and something a boy can wear to school without being embarrassed. The BSA did remarkably well, considering the vengeance with which so many adults defended the dress-designer Uniform (that most Boy Scouts hated with the very fiber of their souls). The BSA did not follow our advice about designing the collar to accommodate a square 32" X 32" full-sized neckerchief, and getting rid of the epaulets/shoulder loops. But as for practical outdoor summer wear, I would have much preferred the previous prototype shirt (that was said to come out of Philmont), the nylon "BSA Action Shirt," Style 202B (catalogue #61693, maybe). It is FULLY vented in the back, and PERFECT in hot weather. I bought a bunch of them for $5 when they were closed out (although I missed out on the long sleeve version). I wear it and and the Centennial Boy Scout Supplex Uniform Shorts every day now when I do my three miles of walking. Even in hot and humid Florida weather, the Action Shirt is cooler than a T-Shirt. Do-it-yourself Traditional Baden-Powell Uniform Shirt: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/traditional/shirt01.htm Patch placement: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/traditional/placement.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Thank you for posting that, Barry.

I've been re-reading Ender's Game, the Shadow series, and Ender in Exile, in anticipation of the film's November 2013 release: http://endersgameblog.tumblr.com/ If first-graders can be drafted for Battle School, certainly they can master two dozen feats of Mumble Peg! The next edition of Guide to Safe Scouting will include a prohibition against Boy Scouts viewing the movie, because of the graphic scenes of laser tag in zero-gravity. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

You have neglected "Character and Leadership." How about "Total hours sitting indoors, side by side with adults of character"? "You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character" (Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca). http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm

"What would you do?" Take away their Tote 'n Chips until they could demonstrate all twenty-four (24) "feats" of the traditional way to play with a knife: "Mumble the Peg:" http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/beard/mumbly_peg.htm Make them demonstrate that axes are the proper tools to throw: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/axe/axe_throwing.htm Tomahawks too: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/beard/throw_tomahawk.htm That night around the campfire, they would lose their Firem 'n Chits until they lose a game of "Jack's Alive!" http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/beard/jacks_alive.htm I hope that helps! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by Kudu)

I think it's useful to judge a Troop's Program by two (2) metrics: 1) A rank advancement program for the Cub Scout survivors who hate camping and long for the day when they can earn their Indoor Eagle Award and leave: Lots of what our Chief Scout Executive promotes as soccer and "Sitting indoors, side by side with adults of good character." 2) A separate outdoor program for your "Real" Patrols. Why torture indoor and outdoor boys with each other's program? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Mine nets about 15 registered Scouts out of an audience of 50: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm