Kudu

And "tie.ly," slowing Scouter.Com to a crawl. New virus attack?

LeCastor, Perhaps the most significant difference between the two programs is the use of Physical Distance to test both Scoutcraft and Patrol leadership. Sounds like a great "University of Scouting" PhD. dissertation! Study two different Wood Badge courses: Follow, to the letter, the course materials in the first course (I assume nobody explains the reason for the Patrol Hike) and see how many Wood Badge participants take the Patrol Hike back to their home units. My guess is that it will be about 0% (zero percent). In the second course, take three minutes to explain how Baden-Powell used regular adult-free Patrol Hikes to teach "leadership skills," and then challenge the participants to try them with their strongest Patrols. Same with separating Wood Badge Patrols by 300 feet, if that is still the custom in your Council. Such research might answer your question "We can still do that within the framework of the BSA. Right?" Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Eagle707 writes: "I poked around and found that, while they stick with materials from 1938, they have updated their first aid training to fit the 21st century." Baden-Powell Scouting is similar to "Vintage Base Ball" (VBB) in that you pick an arbitrary date and play the game according to the rank requirements of that particular year. 1938 was the last year that Baden-Powell himself edited his Rules on How to Play the Game of Scouting for Boys. So the rank requirements remain the same, but (unlike VBB) the techniques to meet them can change with a) health & safety practices, b) environmental concerns, and c) light-weight camping technologies. This is different from BSA Scouting where we start with an abstract goal (the "Three Aims," the corporate mission statement, business "leadership" theory, etc.) and work backwards, "modernizing" the rank requirements accordingly. Signalling requirements catch most people's eye, but the real game-changer is the First Class Journey, where a Second Class Scout and his buddy test their First Class skills against the forces of nature without any two-deep "adult association." First Class Journey adult how-to guide: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/hikes/1st_class_hike.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

As I understand it, the organizers of D-Day went looking for Eagle Scouts so they could teach the enlisted men how to elect new officers every six months. The purpose of the Invasion of Normandy was to offer ALL of the participants the opportunity to develop into great leaders. OldGreyEagle: Greatest Generation Patrol "Leadership" Training: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/6th.htm

Basementdweller, "Must read" to implement Green Bar Bill's "Real" Patrol Method? The third edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters, Volume 1 and Volume 2: http://preview.tinyurl.com/83xh448

"did I misunderstand?" Yes.

Eagle92 writes: "I'll be honest, I do like the fact that the members of the troop elect the SPL. It reminds me more of our democratic republic format," Yes, who among us would NOT take Green Bar Bill's power away from the Patrol Leaders, in exchange for the darling cuteness of a school election? Eagle92 writes: "The original SPL selection of GBB's, i.e. PLs elect the SPL, reminds me more of a parliamentary system. But again that's just me." No it's not just you, Eagle92. Thanks to the invention of "leadership" development, the BSA's "Real" Patrol Method has become so "foreign" to most Americans, that a committee of Patrol Leaders with the power to select their own coordinator strikes most of us "trained" adults as the "parliamentary system." Eagle92 writes: " i.e. the PLC= Congress and the SPL=President. It's just that the SPL also presides over the PLC. " Cut the crap Eagle92 Let's run our Troop Elections the RIGHT Way, with a Two Party System: Patrol Method Party = Parliament (Bad) Scouting conservatives ("Traditional," "Old-Fashioned," Patrol Adventure) Troop Method Party = America! (Good) Scouting liberals ("Modern," "Innovation," Webelos III "Controlled Failure" Bailouts) Scoutmaster = President (Power of the Veto). Appointed by the Electoral College (Scoutmaster can win popular vote & still lose election). PLC = Senate (Each Patrol equally represented) SPL = Vice President (Presides over the PLC. Appointed at his SM's party convention, after a series of Primary Elections in which the Scoutmaster candidates in both parties launch hateful smear campaigns against the other adults in their own party). Troop Committee = House of Representatives (Each Patrol votes for its favorite mommies and daddies) THIS IS VERY AMERICAN, because Baden-Powell's Patrol Leaders (Bad) run the Troop without any "Committee" of mommies and daddies! Eagle92 writes: "IMHO, it reinforces the concept that you must elect good leaders." I agree! In Realistic Troop Elections, if the Scouts elect adults that don't do exactly what they want, they can vote for new adults in six months Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

So Platypus96, these "tools to do it" that you teach, do they enable the two Patrols to camp 300 feet from each other? Do the Patrol Leaders then set off on separate Patrol Hikes without you, the JASM, and the adult leaders tagging along? If so, congrats! The Patrols in most Troops are forced to camp close together in a single campsite to learn "leadership skills" in a protected "Webelos III" setting where the risk of a few burned pancakes is the very worst that can happen. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

If you read Patrol System materials for the rest of the world, you will find that the "Communication Path" for important things like rank advancement is the same as the "Chain of Command" in a system actually run by the Patrol Leaders: PL --> SPL, SM See for instance John Thurman's model PLC meeting (chaired by an SPL ["TL"], btw): http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm

The usual problem here is that we did away with the final requirement for First Class: The First Class Journey, a backpacking trip that tests the Scout's Scoutcraft skills against the forces of nature. See the how-to guide for adult leaders: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/hikes/1st_class_hike.htm Simple fix? Hold all your Scoutmaster Conferences on backpacking trips Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Oops! I posted here rather than in the spun thead: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=340353&p=3 (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Baden-Powell invented the position of Senior Patrol Leader, which he calls the "Troop Leader." If you follow the URL I posted on Monday, 2/27/2012: 12:25:40 PM, you will see that Baden-Powell's rules make the position OPTIONAL, meaning that B-P agrees with johnponz, that you can have a good Patrol System with or without an SPL. As for Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method: As in B-P's Patrol System, the Patrol Leaders are the Troop's top leaders, so these Patrol Leaders pick their own "senior" Patrol Leader, rather having a leadership skills "mentor" imposed on them by Troop Method popularity contests. In a perfect world our adult office "leadership" enthusiasts would take that particular 1972 "innovation" back to the workplace, and get fired for trying to organize the mailroom and secretarial pool into demanding six month elections for CEO. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Yes, that sounds gay to me too, johnponz, but then so does your use of bowel movements to discredit the Patrol System. Eagledad writes: "You would step in mine and flounder because you don't know the difference between the process to the vision and process of a single plan." Speaking of bowel movements, what a steaming pile of "leadership skills" ad hominem! Eagledad writes: "You will never understand that a good leader can step into any program and achieve the same goals." Actually we agree, don't we? In a nutshell, leadership development is the belief that if we take position-specific training away from our Patrol Leaders, take away their right to pick their own coordinating Patrol Leader, and invent POR requirements to encourage their replacement every six months, then any boy who understands "the difference between the process to the vision and process of a single plan, can step into any Patrol and achieve the same goal" of overnight outings in the backwoods without adult association. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

desertrat77 writes: "I say the SPL." I say the "senior" Patrol Leader. desertrat77 writes: "And, heaven forbid he doesn't wake up on time, who gets him moving?" Traditionally the Scoutmaster wakes everybody up with his kudu horn. So I say: "Show me a Troop with more than one Patrol that has no SPL, and I'll show you a SM who is playing the bugler...." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

acco40 writes: "Ideally, the Scoutmaster interacts with one and only one Scout - the SPL." Acco, I agree with lrsap: In Baden-Powell's Scouting the Scoutmaster interacts as an older brother to every Scout. In fact he originally set the limit of Scouts per Troop at 32 because, he said, 16 was as many "younger brothers" as he could get to know at one time, but since most Scoutmasters were twice as capable, he multiplied by two. As for training, in Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method, the Scoutmaster acts as the Patrol Leader of the "Green Bar Training Patrol." The SPL is his APL, BUT the purpose of Hillcourt's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol," is to teach each Patrol Leader how to physically lead his Patrol into the backwoods without adult association. desertrat77 writes: "the SPL gets the bugler up" Sounds like "chain of command" stuff. Why does a bugler need a supervisor to wake him up? In the BSA "Real" Patrol Method, the Patrol Leaders appoint the SPL: Reverse chain of command! No reason why they can't rotate the point man among themselves with the Program Patrol, as Basementdweller does. More common in my experience is for the Patrol Leaders to appoint the Troop's obvious Natural Leader to be the most "senior" of them: Chairing meetings and coordinating campouts on a regular basis, but with a Patrol of his own. Show me a troop that wastes talent on a full-time SPL position, and I'll show you an SPL who is playing chain of command with a lot less than 300 foot chains. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

In the rest of the world, Scouting was based on Baden-Powell's Patrol System: 1) The maxim number of Patrols in a Troop = Six (6), of 6-8 Scouts each. 2) Even with six Patrols, a Senior Patrol Leader is optional. See Rules #237-242: http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/groups.htm 3) The "purpose" of a Patrol is to go out on patrol: To cover physical distance (without "adult association"). 4) When camping as a Troop, Patrols camp 300 feet apart, in a circle, with the Scouters' campsite at the hub. All of this can be done in the context of monthly campouts along the lines of modern Wood Badge. The rub is that physical distance involves managed risk. Therefore you might want your Troop's very best natural leaders in the Patrol Leader positions, managing the risk of physical distance out there in the LITERAL "Trust 'em, Let 'em Lead" absence of adult association. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Eagledad writes: "Less than 5% of the population has the skills to lead" Barry, You have been quoting that statistic for years. Is it from personal observation and/or somewhere else? In most of the units I visit and/or have been involved with, 5% are Natural Leaders. In a Troop of about 20 Scouts, there is usually one (1), sometimes two. It only takes a couple minutes to figure out who he is: The Scout moving around the room (or campsites) providing help where needed, OR the kid in the back of the room generating waves of disruption Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

"the SPL has it in his head that his way is always the right way" And maybe the Patrol Campout needs a couple of ASPLs to make sure the "Positions Of Responsibility" are being managed correctly?

Stuff to do at meetings while you work out the details: How to Spin a Rope: Lariat throwing, Rope Spinning and Trick Cowboy Knots http://inquiry.net/outdoor/spin_rope/index.htm

To be fair, "Prepared. For Life." has filled the Scoutcraft vacuum in the Handbook with 22 pages of leadership theory: The first chapter in the "Scoutcraft Section," of all places. Back when Scouting was popular, the index had only one reference to leadership: A page about taking initiative. It's a wonder that any of us survived Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

In a perfect world, every Wood Badge staffer and participant would aspire to the quality Real Patrol Method that Twocubdad describes. However, to qualify for recognition as "the first person in the history of the Internet to bring back to his unit Wood Badge Patrols spaced B-P's 300 feet apart, and adult-free WB Patrol Hikes," Twocubdad must amend his HISTORICAL post to describe how he made the connection that Wood Badge Patrols could work in his own Troop. I can't claim the Al Gore Award myself because as a novice adult leader I just didn't make that connection until I read Baden-Powell again after Wood Badge (even though I had implemented 300 foot campsites and Patrol Hikes as a Senior Patrol Leader). As for Twocubdad's experience with Patrol Hikes: The concept does not appeal to our older Scouts either... ...AFTER... ...they are settled into a campsite. Getting TO the campsite is another story: For instance when they spend the whole day Saturday hiking their equipment about eight miles to a remote Troop campsite without any "adult association" or rules about electronics along the way. Back before Troop Guides (when Patrol Leaders were responsible for their Patrol's advancement), all hikes were planned as an adventure with a theme (similar to the Patrol with the bottleneck of boys wanting to complete their First Class cooking requirements). Hike Themes: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/hikes/index.htm Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Just sayin'

Only a total dick types his name in CAPS.

JMHawkins writes: "What's missing from the introductory training?" Maybe we can use EDGE to figure out what's missing from the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster Training.

JMHawkins writes: "What's missing from the introductory training?" Maybe we can use EDGE to figure out what's missing from the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster Training.