Kudu

Pick and choose who gets to go with: First Come, First Served -- Monthly Permission Slips: A month in advance, a 8.5 x 11" information sheet about the next campout: WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, FEE, DEPARTING & RETURNING times, LEADERS IN CHARGE (with cell phone numbers), DRIVING DIRECTIONS. Boiler-plate description of the campout (Webelos III or High Adventure). "Special Considerations" section for High Adventure treks, mostly gear information: Remember that High Adventure tends to attract outdoor parents who do not attend regular BSA Webelos III monthly outings. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- RETURN COUPON at bottom of page: Name & Date of campout, Name of Scout, Guardian giving permission, Current phone numbers, Another Responsible Party (and current phone number), Payment Amount. CAN YOU DRIVE? If "Yes," then: I HAVE ROOM FOR ____ SCOUTS. If "No," then: MY SON(s) WILL RIDE WITH ________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- See: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/coh_campout.htm Return coupon provides a convenient record on your clipboard of trip information for each Scout. Making the Scouts or their parents ask other parents about transportation provides adult peer-pressure to share driving responsibilities. Providing driving directions enables parents to envision the trip. Unexpectedly, it gets some parents to think of making a weekend vacation of a long trip. One grandmother always stayed with relatives in the area while we backpacked twice a year in the National Forest (of the trip detailed at the above URL). I started using informational Permission Slips to improve communication in a Troop in a rough neighborhood. Most of the Scouts had jobs and paid their own way, so they weren't in the habit of asking their parents for camping money. As a result, it happened that one month two brothers somehow forgot to tell their parents about the campout. When we returned their mom said, "We didn't see them Friday night, but noticed their packs were missing (frequent Patrol overnights). When they still were not back by Saturday afternoon, we figured they must have gone on a Troop campout." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by Kudu)

The insides of a set of my seemingly well-designed compression sacks became sticky, as did the rain fly of my MSR Hubba-Hubba backpacking tent. Must be the chemical reaction of a waterproof coating of some sort. Very mysterious. Some Wal-Mart camping departments sell uncoated compression sacks VERY cheaply: No problems so far after ten years of use. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Tell him if his parents want it bad enough, he should hold out for an F-150.

Yes, because the requirements are designed for boys like him.

"However, what Rick means by the "Baden Powell" "Patrol Method" has been built, post by post, over the years, and I would sooner he answer a question put to him about his understandings, beliefs, and opinions." I would make a distinction between Baden-Powell's Patrol System (Patrol Hikes as training for individual Journeys), and Hillcourt's Patrol Method (Patrol Hikes as training for Patrol Campouts), but maybe all that historical context stuff is just too confusing? Walking has remarkable health and fitness benefits (As discussed in the parent thread: I lost 20 pounds walking 3 miles a day. Like Eamonn --who walks five miles a day-- I weigh about the same as I did at 16). Back when Scouting was popular, both the Patrol System and Patrol Method were based on Patrol Hikes: "A Hike is a Walk with a Purpose" (GBB). Since Wood Badge still includes a Patrol Hike, why not make taking the Wood Badge Patrol Hike back to the participants' units a Ticket item, and then promote it as the new "Health Savvy" Wood Badge? JMHawkins writes: "Na, Tahawk, Kudu was quite clear in advocating patrol hikes. " And in the context of monthly Troop campouts! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

The GtSS still allows Patrol Hikes without adult association. As I explained elsewhere, here is the context for the Patrol backpacking videos I posted in this thread on Thursday, 5/17/2012: 8:13:42 PM: 1) Camp as a "Troop" on Friday night, Patrols at least 300 feet apart. 2) Saturday morning the older Scouts set off on their own Patrol Hike, taking about an eight (8) mile route to our Saturday afternoon location. This ad hoc Patrol is self-selected (by invitation only). As you can see from the videos, gung-ho Scouts as young as 11 are sometimes asked to join. In that case, the older Scouts carry their share of the food & equipment. 3) An ad hoc Patrol of younger (and/or less ambitious) Scouts sets off on a shorter route (about two [2] miles) to the same end location. 4) The adults set off along that same shorter route. The goal is for the adults to hike at least a couple football fields behind the younger Scouts, but that fluctuates with every hike depending on the capabilities of the younger Scouts. Last time we didn't see them again until we reached the destination, the trip before that two of their slower Scouts ended up hiking with us. 5) In the afternoon the three groups converge at the Troop's common location. The older Scouts camp a few football fields away from the adults, and the younger Scouts camp about 300 feet away from us, in the opposite direction. 6) Sometimes the three Patrols do not interact at all. Last time the older Scouts hosted a campfire for us and the younger Scouts, with the understanding that we wouldn't overstay our welcome

Hearing from Tahawk and his ilk about what the B.S.A. rules require is certainly thought provoking. Does anyone else see anything against the rules in my last post?

The point being that if you "brainstorm" how to boost membership, then a possible correlation in the fall in membership after 1972, and the end (that year) of Hillcourt's "Real" Patrol Leader Training (how to plan and conduct a Patrol Hike), should provide ideas as "creative" as replacing camping with soccer. As you have pointed out, the Patrol Hike is still a part of Wood Badge, so to test Baden-Powell's Patrol System as a possible membership booster (and anti-obesity strategy) would be cheap and easy: 1) Find a few experimental Councils around the country: Those that still separate Wood Badge Patrols by about 300 feet. 2) Call participants' attention to the fact that their Patrols are camped Baden-Powell's minimum standard apart, and their Patrol Hikes are undertaken without the other Patrols, and without the Staffers. 3) Here is the radical step: Make explicit the idea that Baden-Powell's Patrol System (as they themselves have just experienced) is a method that they can take back to their home units. 4) Announce that Boy Scout leaders in the course have the option of adopting (as a Ticket item) B-P's Patrol System in their home units. 5) Track any differences between recruitment, retention, and obesity statistics in the Troops of the participants who implemented B-P's Patrol System as a Ticket item, and those who didn't. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Boy Scouts get Tech-Savvy to Boost Membership An Eagle Scout who has worked for the Boy Scouts for 40 years, Brock noted there was a time when leaders thought Scouts should leave their cellphones behind when they headed out on hikes. Now, though, the thought is why not bring them along? http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-05/D9UUDSLO0.htm That is the point of this thread. The Boy Scouts' membership peaked in 1972 at almost 5 million. Why is it than when BSA millionaires ponder how to "boost membership," they never examine how Leadership Development killed the "Real" Patrol Method in 1972, when membership began to plunge. Bring back the "Real" Patrol Method: Boost membership and fight obesity. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Orson Scott Card Interview on military leadership and the development of the character "Ender": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMTpyh70m7w&feature=related Orson Scott Card - Ender in Exile Book Trailer. The author on Ender's post-military civilian leadership (at age 14): Fan "movie credits" song. Good quality audio with selected frames from Ender's Game Marvel Comics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQjWFo5alac Ender's Game Chapter 1: Frame by frame video of the Marvel Comics graphic novel with soundtrack from the audio book. Includes the after-school fight with Stilson. Low quality YouTube stuff, but recommended if you are not familiar with how Ender's Game is rendered in these two (separate) media: Marvel comics "Hotline" for Ender's Game: Battle School, narrated by Orson Scott Card:

Tahawk writes: "I have uncritically accepted for decades that wilderness backpacking is Scouting at its best. The most impressive troops I have seen were strong in the outdoor program." Um, Eagle732, you missed your cue: According to your "inference" logic, we must conclude that Tahawk tells Scouts who don't backpack that they are not the "best," and that their Troop is not "impressive." On this issue I find common ground with Tahawk. I would add that because Baden-Powell's backpacking Journeys are no longer expected monthly for the Patrol Method, or "required" for advancement in the BSA, they can give an adult leader insights into what Scouting is all about: A significant undertaking that outdoor boys do for the pure joy of it. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

smalltroopSM writes: "Just make sure the patrols are boy led with a seasoned scouter close by to prevent "Lord of the Flies" from breaking out." That, in a nutshell, is the downside of "leadership training."

Eagle732, and it's a fairly simple answer: "What kind of question is that?" In other words, I question your motivation for asking it. You seem to be searching for some cruel moral absolutism, rather than finding common ground on which to build a challenging outdoor program for boys who crave outdoor adventure even though it is no longer "required" to reach even the highest rank in American Scouting. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Eagle732 writes: "I'll ask again; Do you have boys in your unit that can't or won't backpack?" Yes. Eagle732 writes: "Do you tell them they are not 'Real Scouts'?" What kind of question is that? Eagle732 writes: "My two scouts that don't backpack or canoe. One is legally blind and deaf, the other can not leave his parents alone overnight because at 14 he is their caretaker, they both have severe medical condition (MS and cancer). Both boys are real scouts." I'll ask again: Why do so many Americans see "inclusiveness" as an opportunity to dumb down Scouting? If by "Real Scouts" you mean B-P's standard for a First Class Scout: Then if the blind kid has a deep longing for adventure, I would put a paddle in his hands. Most of B-P's rank requirements had a water Journey option. No reason why a blind outdoor enthusiast can't help his buddy paddle a canoe 14 miles. For the fourteen-year-old who can't leave his parents untended, some communities have programs where volunteers will come in to relieve elder-care-givers. If this child can not take a break to go camping once a month, then nobody is looking out for him. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Scoutfish writes: "Then take a urban troop. Not welfare boys, but boys who are bottom middle class or even upper lower class incomes. You know- just able to afford to be in scouting.....but barely. They can't afford to travel 100 miles or 3 or 4 hours away to a rural or wilderness setting. The only option they really have is a city/county park...So, which scouts are "REAL scouts"?" Why do so many Americans see "inclusiveness" as an opportunity to dumb down Scouting? If you want to read about Real Scouts in urban Troops, see my article in the winter 1997 issue of Scouter Magazine. The only time we ever camped in city/county parks was when we attended Camporees, but our Scouts did not like that kind of camping. It was precisely these city park BSA Council events that inspired Baden-Powell coin the term "Parlour Scouting." It took constant fund-raising, but we always managed to get to camps once a month where the Patrols could set up 300 feet apart, with occasional backpacking trips to the Allegheny National Forest, or the Adirondack Mountains. As for "Real Patrol" Camping, the twelve (12) year-old Patrol Leader from our Troop interviewed by Terry Howerton and "Big Ed" Henderson, hiked or biked his Patrol out of the neighborhood through old railroad right-of-ways. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

"The only "Real" Boy Scouts are those whose great Scouting passion is to camp out of a backpack or canoe." Eagle732 writes: "When you make the statement that only scouts who participate at a certain level are "Real Scouts" then you infer that the rest are not "Real" scouts. " If only every adult Eagle could be so offended by the praise of Traditional First Class Scouts. I used Hillcourt's term "Real" because the activities of a "Real Patrol" and a "Real Scout" are exactly the same: A "Real Patrol" practices the same backpacking Journeys that its Second Class Scouts would have do alone or with one Second Class buddy to be called by B-P a "First Class Scout." So when he makes the statement that only Scouts who "participate at a certain level" are "First Class Scouts" then we must infer that the rest are SECOND BEST (the meaning of "Second Class")! Sad thing is no one here will say a thing to support the "parlour" boys who are not, in B-P's opinion, "First Class Scouts." Where is the outrage? Well, to be more fair to boys who hate camping, we replaced Baden-Powell's backpack or canoe test at every rank with the YMCA's adult-run Scoutmaster Conference and Board of Review. So instead of using the absolute joy to an outdoor boy of testing his skills at each rank with Baden-Powell's adult-free backpack or canoe Journeys, we drag him indoors to be tested by a bunch of parents to determine if he is "scout-like." Maybe you could suggest a more politically correct term than "Real Scout" for boys who meet Baden-Powell's definition of a "First Class Scout"? I was thinking along the lines of "High Adventure," but that would "infer" that Scouts who do not participate at a certain level are "lower." I certainly don't want to damage the self-esteem of "scout-like" boys who hate camping! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Eagle732 writes: "No need to buy those over-priced backpacking meals, Google "Freezer Bag Cooking"." Thanks. I had the book, but never got around to visiting their Website. I printed out a dozen recipes and called the titles off to the Patrols at a meeting. The following three got amazingly positive Scout reviews at this morning's "Thorns & Roses" session: "Bacon & Cheese Pasta" Ingredients 3 oz pack ramen (any flavor) 1⁄4 c shelf stable bacon 1⁄4 c shelf stable parmesan cheese 1⁄2 t granulated dried garlic 1⁄4 t red pepper flakes 1⁄4 t ground black pepper 1 T olive oil (1 packet) 1 1⁄2 c water See: http://www.trailcooking.com/recipes/bacon-and-cheese-pasta "BBQ Chicken Wraps" Ingredients 7 oz pouch chicken breast 2 flour tortillas (soft taco size) 1⁄4 c bbq sauce 2 oz pepper-jack cheese 1⁄4 c french fried onions See: http://www.trailcooking.com/recipes/bbq-chicken-wraps "BBQ Chicken Rice Wraps" Ingredients 1⁄2 c instant rice 1 pk 4-ounce bbq flavor chicken breast 1 oz cream cheese 2 flour tortillas 1⁄2 c water http://www.trailcooking.com/recipes/bbq-chicken-rice-wraps

Yes, try the PLC/annual planning, but that did not work for me after I retired and moved to the south. Leadership theory may be fine in Troops with established hard core outdoor programs, but can definitely work against change in a Troop with no experience in High Adventure. The Troop in my new neighborhood gives each Assistant Scoutmaster a minute at the end of the meeting to say something (most don't), so I announced I was going on "backwoods fishing trip" (I did NOT use the term "backpacking") and if anyone wanted to tag along come see me after the meeting. About half the Troop signed up, and backpacking has been very popular ever since. Two things I did first, and if it makes sense to you, you might want to start now: 1) Figure out who the "Natural Leaders" are. Often they are the popular "to cool for school" kids whose parents force them to be there. Get to know each of them on a personal basis: What their interests are, and what you have in common. For instance, a couple of the young hunters in the local Troop hated Boy Scout campouts, so I invented a fishing angle for backpacking (I myself hate fishing). Once you have the Natural Leaders (even if they are NOT in the PLC), the other Scouts will follow. That is also how I work a public school recruiting presentation: Convince the Natural Leaders in the crowd (usually the hecklers), and the other boys will follow. 2) Talk to all the parents, and any other adults associated with the Troop (and possibly Roundtable). Some men (dads, uncles, etc.) with serious outdoor skills want nothing to do with typical BSA monthly campouts ("The boys' Scouting is my wife's job"), but will jump at the chance to backpack or canoe camp. Some of our mothers lead canoe and/or 50 mile bike trips, but head off in the evening. 3) In addition to the current Scoutmaster's Handbook (which will get you acclimated to the mess that leadership theory has made of Scouting), purchase copies of William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's two (2) volume masterpiece, the third (3rd) edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters: About 1,200 pages of details on how the "Real" Patrol Method works. The same techniques work today because they appeal directly to the unchanging nature of boys. See: http://tinyurl.com/83xh448 Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Eagle732 writes: "The comment I made was in reference to your statement about "Real Scouts" (individuals), not real patrols. When you make the statement that only scouts who participate at a certain level are "Real Scouts" the you infer that the rest are not "Real" scouts. I've got two scouts in my troop right now that have never been backpacking or canoeing. " So you are OK with Green Bar Bill's statement that only Patrols that walk into the woods once a month without adult association are "Real" Patrols, but you draw the line at Baden-Powell's class system that defines a Scout's "Class" by the distance he has navigated through the backwoods with a backpack or canoe? http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm After all, his First Class "Journey" requirements "infer" that an Eagle who has never walked into the woods with a pack on his back is a "Second Class" Eagle To rephrase the question posed by this thread: Do ANY hardcore backpacking + iPod Troops observe (out on the trail) the same unScout-like behavior of the indoor Scouts reported above? Not that there is anything WRONG with indoor Scouts!

BrotherhoodWWW writes: "With a SPL you then can have an ASPL which satisfies a rank requirement." And with a SPL and nine ASPLs in a ten-Scout Troop, you could satisfy ten POR rank requirements and not cut any good leaders out of the one Patrol!

Eagle732 writes: "I don't understand this need you have to label certain scouts as "Real Scouts"." Eagle732, Do you understand Green Bar Bill's "need" to label Patrols that hike at least once a month without adult association as "Real Patrols"?

Eagledad, Maybe you could be more specific and point out how "the adult or adults are actively making decisions for the boys on their leadership" in John Thurman's fly-on-the-wall transcript of "The Court of Honor in Session": http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm

"The solution is simple: Develop a backpacking program." Brewmeister writes: "Boys want the adventure of the woods but the woods are not outside the back door. How do you develop a backpacking program when you must rely on the parents (or older scouts who can drive) to get the scouts to where they need to be to start backpacking?" Brewmeister, Are you just asking a practical transportation question: "How do the Scouts get driven to the trailhead if the adults don't stick around to hike with them"? If so, then (given current Patrol Overnights policy), we usually: 1) Camp as a "Troop" on Friday night, Patrols at least 300 feet apart. 2) Saturday morning the older Scouts set off on their own Patrol Hike, taking about an eight (8) mile route to our Saturday afternoon location. This ad hoc Patrol is self-selected (by invitation only). As you can see from the videos, gung-ho Scouts as young as 11 are sometimes asked to join. In that case, the older Scouts carry their share of the equipment. 3) An ad hoc Patrol of younger (and/or less ambitious) Scouts sets off on a shorter route (about two [2] miles) to the same end location. 4) The adults set off along that same shorter route. The goal is for the adults to hike at least a couple football fields behind the younger Scouts, but that changes with every hike depending on the capabilities of the younger Scouts. Last time we didn't see them again until we reached the destination, the trip before that two of their slower Scouts ended up hiking with us. 5) In the afternoon the three groups converge at the Troop's common location. The older Scouts camp a few football fields from the adults, and the younger Scouts camp about 300 feet away from us, in the opposite direction. 6) Sometimes the three Patrols do not interact at all. Last time the older Scouts hosted a campfire for us and the younger Scouts, with the understanding that we wouldn't overstay our welcome Does that help? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Second Class writes: "Some boys are there ONLY because mom or dad says so. They are the reluctant scouts that, IMHO bring down the entire troop, in spirit, in attitude, in percentages." Worse than that, making sure that boys who hate camping rotate through a Boy Scout Troop's leadership positions is the whole point of leadership development's invention of Positions of Responsibility requirements in 1965, the year that Green Bar Bill retired. The Patrol Method must be dumbed down to the Cub Scout level so that reluctant Patrol Leaders learning office management formulas don't endanger the other boys. That is the meaning of office management concepts like "controlled failure" (which replaced the controlled risk of Green Bar Bills' adult-free Patrol Hikes and Overnights). Simply look for adult "leadership" experts who brag that "the worst that can happen" in their units is burned food. The evolutionary advantage of dumbing the Boy Scout program down to the indoor Eagle level is that Eagle mills can attract large numbers of Cub Scout parents: A critical mass. The good news is that as many as 50% of that critical mass of Cub Scout survivors are potential "Real" Boy Scouts. 50% of 32 Scouts equals two ad hoc Patrols of eight. Not bad! Second Class writes: "Sometimes I think everyone would be better off if they just left. But I can't verbalized that." The concept is easily verbalized as "Webelos III." The solution is simple: Develop a backpacking program. The adventure of walking into the woods with packs on their backs will appeal to the Troop's "Real" Boy Scouts. The indoor adult helicopters and indoor boys (including the indoor SPLs, and the indoor ASPLs, and the indoor Patrol Leaders) will all self-select themselves out and stay home. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

"Do ANY hardcore backwoods Troops here ban iPods on the trail?" Eagle732 writes: "electronics become a distraction ... texting during a Scouts Own Service (remember that incident Kudu?) ...while the Patrol Leader is planning the next outing with his patrol." Scouts' Own, Patrol planning sessions, summer camp offices, laptops at office meetings, OA Chapter ceremony practice, I feel your pain gentlemen. To that I would add my own negative visceral reaction to electronics while cabin camping and Webelos III tent camping. AZMike writes: "Kudu, since you spun this thread off from my post on another thread about weight issues, you might want to mention that I was referring to hiking alone... an iPod...kind of defeats the purpose of being able to experience the outdoors and the company of friends. It seals you off when you should be open to nature and others.>" In other words, an anti-electronics policy is "good for their souls." To that I would add Pack212Scouter's sense of silence as communing with nature and God. That is (quite literally), a religious argument. My experience with Scouts on the trail has inculcated within me a different religious argument: The only "Real" Boy Scouts are those whose great Scouting passion is to camp out of a backpack or canoe. That's right, I said it: Boy Scouts who love to cover eight miles a day with a pack on their backs or a paddle in their hands, live the Scout Law differently than those who don't. That was Baden-Powell's "Religion of the Backwoods," the mission upon which Scouting was founded: http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm For those who haven't see it, here is what Patrols of older backpacking Boy Scouts with the free use of electronics look like when they set off for a day of unsupervised hiking: The Scout at the end of the line in the first video (our SPL at the time), was disappointed when his Philmont-bound crew started holding conditioning treks. The adult leader forbid the use of iPods. So much for Scout-led. Our older Scouts usually wait until they are a few miles down the trail before listening to music. They say that after a while they run out of things to say, and most of what "listening to nature" amounts to is the crunch of hiking boots and the whine of mosquitoes. Since our Patrols of older Scouts hike without adult supervision, all I really know about their use of electronics on the trail is what they tell me, what I observe in the morning when they set off, later in the day when we meet up with them near the destination, and (when I get back home) the Facebook update photographs they had sent from their phones as they hiked. We do see more of the Patrols of younger Scouts because they hike closer to the adults: The general agreement is 1) they restrict electronics use to the trail during the day, and their tents at night; 2) that they keep the volume low enough to hear each others' voices; and 3) the ear buds come out when someone stops for some reason. Some of them hike with only one bud. As you can see from the videos, use during the day is not very common. I suspect that they save their batteries for their tents at night. I've never seen any downside in their behavior. The backpackers (unlike our Webelos III Scouts) always act responsibly with iPods. As for texting, I know that almost all of them do it (in classroom stealth mode) because after they set up camp, they always know from where everybody else has recently texted: "Marc is with Ryan catching snakes on the other side of the pond." Strangely, the only Scout I have ever actually seen texting is the Eagle Scout with the phone on his chest pictured on the At300Feet YouTube icon. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu