Kudu

Maybe LeCastor will explain that to you in August.

Free Trade + Free Minds = Free Scouts

Can the moderators can help us? In the history of Scouter.Com (and/or the entire Internet) has any staffer or participant ever returned from Wood Badge and asked for advice (or reported success or failure) in setting up the separate, independent Patrol Hikes on Troop campouts, "without the 'adults' (staff) being present, that has been part of every version of Wood Badge?" If 1 out of every 1,000 staffers and/or participants take the Patrol Method back to their home units, such discussions must be common.

Curious, You are entirely too humble. If getting behind the wheel of your analogy and navigating from point A to point B without a teacher, is at least one objective of a driver's eduction course, why is it that in my 17 years of reading "automobile touring" Internet forums, I have never seen a single driver's education graduate brag about driving from point A to point B for the first time, or ask a related how-to question? I usually read stuff more like ScoutBox's report: "Lisabob, Well said and I totally agree. I started to push our driver's education graduates to hold student elections. Not a teacher choosing the Class President, like it was before. Now the student government plans field trips. Everybody gets into a school bus to get from point A to point B together." Why is it that nobody ever brags about how useful Wood Badge training is for training a Patrol Leader how to guide his Patrol from point A to point B through the backwoods without "adult association"? Why is it that in my 17 years of Internet addiction, I've never seen a Wood Badge graduate report a single problem with such a traditional example of "boy leadership" in a "position of responsibility," and ask for advice? According to my screen I am currently "1 of 1092 Active Users," so evidently YOU are that 1 in 1,000 who returns from Wood Badge able to meet Baden-Powell's minimum standards for the Patrol System! So, please explain to us "leadership skills" skeptics why teaching your Patrol Leaders how to camp their Patrols 300 feet apart, and conduct Patrol Hikes separately from other Patrols (without "adult association") is so easy that you (and all the Staffers who promote Wood Badge here) would never even think of mentioning your Scouts' rather remarkable accomplishments? In awe at 300 feet, Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

"Boyce was inspired to create the Lone Scouts by the Lonecraft program of the British Boy Scout Association. That should be familiar as that is the organization Baden-Powell founded and was active in." "Lone Scouts" were part of Baden-Powell's program: "Rule 200: Lone Scouts and Lone Rovers "200. (i) Where, on account of special circumstances, a boy is unable to be a member of a Group, the D.C., if he thinks desirable, and can arrange for subsequent supervision, may request the County Secretary to register him as a Lone Scout or as a Lone Rover." http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/county_organisation.htm However, "Lonecraft" was a program element of the Kibbo Kift Kindred movement, which was opposed to the "militaristic views" of Lord Baden-Powell. Likewise for the "British Boy Scout" association, a Christian anti-war alternative to B-P's "Boy Scout Association." "Leadership" was never an advancement requirement in Baden-Powell's Scouting. It should be remembered that the world-wide test for a First Class Scout (including the BSA) was the First Class Journey, a 14 mile overnight trip which was undertaken alone or with a single buddy. Perfect for a Lone Scout, but for a boy who hates camping? Not so much. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Curious writes: "The problem with WB isn't the material, but rather the participants." You must be a "leadership" word games expert. If the Patrol Hike is part of the course "material" and only 1 out of 1,000 participants bring it back to their home units, then the problem is Wood Badge, not the participants. (The same is true for 150-300 feet between Boy Scout Patrols, if Baden-Powell's minimum standard for the Patrol System is indeed part of the actual course material). To put it in EDGE terms: My guess is although Wood Badge defenders claim that the Patrol Hike and B-P's Patrol Campsites are "Demonstrated," they are never actually "Explained" to the Staffers as something participants should take home to their units. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

Curious writes: "Can't speak for other WB courses, but that is the way mine was run. Each patrol was spaced and camped quite a distance apart, easily 300 feet apart. And the patrol hike was just that: just the members of our patrol." Curious, Yes, 150-300 feet between Patrols is Baden-Powell's minimum standard for the Patrol System. Likewise regular Patrol Hikes (without other Patrols or "adult association") is the worldwide definition of the Patrol Method: The purpose of a Patrol is to go out on Patrol. The question is how many Wood Badge participants return from Wood Badge and train their Patrol Leaders to space their Patrols 300 feet apart, and lead their Patrols on separate Patrol Hikes (if only during Troop campouts)? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000? If even 1 in 1,000 WB participants actually brought Baden-Powell's Patrol System back to their units from Wood Badge, then the practical problems that result from holding elections every six months would be a more common topic of discussion on Scouting forums: "Just got back from Wood Badge! Last month one of my Patrols went on a Hike and burned down a National Forest. This month I let them camp 300 feet away, but at 2 AM last Sunday they dropped a brick from a highway overpass, and it landed on the windshield of a state trooper's cruiser. The Patrol Leader easily won the popularity contest, but does not agree that he needs to move his Patrol from the "Yelling" to the "Gelling" stage of Group Development. Anyone have any suggestions?" Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by Kudu)

ScoutBox, Maybe you have never Staffed the "Patrol Method" presentation of Scoutmaster training. The National EDGE experts REMOVED the Patrol Leader and ANY description of a working Patrol, and REPLACED them with EDGE. Did I mention that this is the "Patrol Method" presentation? The problem I have with EDGE is that no matter how many times I repeat that, people like you scratch their heads and say "Nothing against you here Kudu, but you do realize that BSA isn't going to bring back any of the former techniques or names anytime soon." Sounds like a leadership cult to me Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

When "leadership skills" experts added EDGE to the "Patrol Method" presentation of SM Training, they removed the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol. Now they have added EDGE to the "Scoutcraft" section of the Boy Scout Handbook.... Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

LeCastor writes: "I have the Scoutmaster's Handbook 3rd Edition by Hillcourt and I've read both volumes. And I've read just about all of the Boy Scout Handbooks (BSA editions), including "Scouting for Boys." ... I don't discount putting this reading knowledge into practice...Sure, it's not like the WB that Kudu remembers." LeCastor has done his homework. Maybe he will be the first person in the history of the Internet to bring back to his unit Wood Badge Patrols spaced B-P's 300 feet apart, and adult-free WB Patrol Hikes. Most participants return as white blood cells: "Why does Kudu think WB participants' grasp of Scout leadership should be judged by how far apart their Patrol Leaders can space their Patrols, and how far they can hike their Patrols without 'adult association' on monthly campouts? Oh! He must have had a bad time at Wood Badge." Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net

Reasonable Rascal, Camping Merit Badge is the sow's ear of leadership innovation by which boys who hate camping become Eagle Scouts without ever walking into the woods with packs on their backs. (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Basementdweller writes: "We have a lone scout that left our troop. If you remember the mom who was going to get her eagle and the boy hates the outdoors, went to resident camp and mom and dad came and picked him up and they stayed at a motel instead of at camp." Reasonable Rascal writes: "Would someone mind explaining to me how this lad can possibly earn his Camping MB? last I knew it was a requirement for Eagle." As our Chief Scout Executive would say, "I think the answer to that is fairly obvious to us:" "Camping is not necessarily a big thing with them, as a matter of fact in some cases it is not big at all...is it more important that we reach that child with the kind of things we have for children and...families in character development and leadership skill growth...Or is it more important that we get them in a tent next week? And so I think the answer to that is fairly obvious to us. ...when we say 'we want to take your twelve-year-old son but you can't come' we're making a mistake there. We have to engage an entire family..." http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm Eagle is all about leadership skill growth, which translates to the ability to play word games with the letter of the law without getting arrested: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=337128&p=2 For instance: The Camping Merit Badge requires only 20 nights of camping "under the sky or in a tent you have pitched." Where does it say that the tent must be pitched outdoors? That would be "adding to the requirements"! Furthermore, Merriam-Webster's second definition of "tent" is the single word "dwelling," under which "lodging" is listed as a synonym, with the example "There is gas, food, and lodging at the next highway exit." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lodging Clearly, a motel is a tent. Especially if we "engage the whole family" at the next highway exit! We can thank William D. Boyce for his government-imposed corporate monopoly based on the YMCA's adult-run program. Baden-Powell's program requires specific physical distances to count as "nights of camping." See: http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm For instance, B-P's version of the "Eagle Project," above, requires the Scout to plan a 50 mile backpacking or boat trip (200 miles by horseback), and provide 50 miles of actual "leadership skills" without adult association helicopters. Nobody on this forum lives up to that standard, or even tests Scouts by the 14 mile First Class Journey. My guess is that few (if any) require unsupervised Patrol Hikes, or even camp their Patrols Baden-Powell's 150-300 feet apart. So by Baden-Powell's written standards the difference between typical "21st century" Troop camping for Camping Merit Badge, and an Eagle Lone Scout lodging with his "entire family" at the next highway exit, is a difference in degree only. I hope that helps, RR Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net (This message has been edited by Kudu)

Ask any red-blooded American boy. Even if Dale was reversed, our Cub Scout Survivor schoolwork/office theory program could not get any more "gay."(This message has been edited by Kudu)

JMHawkins, You forgot to add a period after 'Be' In addition to the preservation of the Scoutcraft program of 1916, this report is mandated by our Congressional Charter. Except for the total nights of Webelos III camping tucked into the Disney section, there is no mention of our Charter's "Purpose" of Scoutcraft except for the usual professional millionaire theme: "Scouting goes beyond teaching outdoor skills." I hope we can find a way for the BSA to combat childhood obesity without forcing Eagle wannabes into the woods with packs on their backs. Its interesting that the Boy Scout program is clumped together with sports, and that those numbers are on the rise. Is something happening in the Utah gyms that we don't know about? Or has the BSA Centennial dream of replacing camping with soccer begun to bear fruit? Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

JMHawkins writes: "Back when the First Class Journey was a requirement for, well, First Class, wasn't part of it writing up a report on what you saw and did during the trip?" Funny you should mention that This afternoon I am proof-reading a "model" of such a report: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/hikes/1st_class_journey.htm "don't think that it is meant to be a model report. When you go on your First Class Hike you will not be expected to write quite so much as Peter and Bill have done" (John Thurman, Camp Chief, Gilwell Park). A First Class Journey easy how-to guide for adult leaders: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/hikes/1st_class_hike.htm More notes: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/b-p/journey.htm "The logbook should not be an essay. The logbook should give an account in note form of what was seen and done. It should be illustrated to some degree. The logbook should be given structure by the inclusion of the map tracing and route cards. The types of trees, plants, crops, animals, and insects found along the way, along with anything unusual seen, should be included in the logbook. The use of photographs is encouraged." I once found such a handwritten First Class Journey report stuffed into an old BSA handbook at an auction. In addition to detailed notes on what he saw along the way, the Second Class Scout had drawn maps of his route, and sketched a number of birds with descriptions of their songs. Pure boyish joy. When I finished reading it, the vendor commented on how poignant it was to experience all that youthful exuberance at his estate sale, so many years later. I wish I had been able purchase it for my Website. JMHawkins writes: "I assume some semblance of grammar was expected in the written report." You would be wrong! To paraphrase our "leadership" experts: "We simply know more about English grammar now than they did back in Baden-Powell's time." The reason that Scouts were required to track half a mile in twenty-five minutes, describe satisfactorily the contents of one store window out of four observed for one minute each, and signal sixteen letters per minute, is that people did not know how to write sentences back then. That's why we must kick office manager theory out of Wood Badge and replace it with English grammar: Grammar is more modern than leadership. Then get rid of the old-fashioned Tenderfoot EDGE requirement, so we can force boys to diagram the sentences in the Scout Oath and Outdoor Code. "Make it. Boring. Call it. Fun."

LisaBob writes: I was the one consistently advocating *for* a real patrol method and *for* actual boy leadership of a sort that even Kudu might have recognized Are you asserting in public forum, that you actually used your Wood Badge skills to train your Troop's Patrol Leaders to hike independently of other Patrols and camp without adult supervision? If so, you may be the first person in the history of the Internet to do so. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net "Make it. Boring. Call it. Fun."

Kick Office Theory. Out of Wood. Badge. Replace It. With Grammar. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu "Did you know that there was a time when to be a First Class Scout--you guys didn't know this I bet--did you guys have to learn how to catch a runaway horse to be a First Class Scout? When was the last time you saw a runaway horse?" Audience response: "Tuesday" "Tuesday? Whoa! OK. Oh, that's right! This is Amish country, isn't it? So what do we mean by being 'Prepared. For Life'? Obviously we don't have to learn how to catch a runaway horse anymore. That's not an important skill!" http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm

KC9DDI writes: "I'm not sure what to think of Scouting's advanced adult leader training program, if having "some experience" with Scouting is listed only as an afterthought for staff qualifications..." You just don't get it, do you KC9DDI? Expecting Wood Badge Staffers to be experienced would discriminate against Den Leaders, who then use their awesome Staffer resumes to join the safety and training committees that prohibit Boy Scouts from using the Real Patrol Method. Its all about "diversity" Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

LeCastor writes: "I have the Scoutmaster's Handbook 3rd Edition by Hillcourt and I've read both volumes." I did that too, and it will help you recognize what little does remain of Green Bar Bill's Wood Badge. I've been told that the Patrol Hike is still there in some vestigial form (like a human appendix for which nobody knows the purpose). Some Councils still space the Patrols Baden-Powell's 300 feet apart. Most likely none of the Cub Scout Staff will suggest that you take either of these two essential elements of Hillcourt's "Real" Patrol Method home to your home unit. But now that you have read more about the Boy Scout Program than most Wood Badge Staffers, you can see past their office management theory, and from personal experience then integrate Patrol Hikes and 300' Patrol Campsites into manageable Patrol Adventure on your Troop's monthly campouts and/or backpacking expeditions. Good luck! Kudu Two Volume Scoutmaster's Handbook 3rd Edition by Hillcourt: http://preview.tinyurl.com/83xh448 (This message has been edited by Kudu)

DeanRx writes: "Thats why I put the qualifier of (if done correctly), on the EDGE method. If done correctly...employing the INTENT correctly. Its not a bad concept, its just not done correctly a lot of the time." EDGE can not be done correctly, because it is a bad concept. If it could be done, then who exactly would do EDGE "correctly"? How about the world's top EDGE experts? They removed the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol from the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster Training and replaced them with EDGE. To remove the Patrol and the Patrol Leader from a Patrol Method presentation is not trivial. If the goal of reenacting and wrestling is "Character and Leadership," then why not take the reenactors out of reenactor training, and the wrestlers out of wrestler training, and teach them EDGE instead? Even the world's foremost EDGE experts can not "Explain" or "Demonstrate" what a Patrol Leader does, let alone "Guide" a Scoutmaster to "Enable" a Patrol Leader to go out on Patrol without helicopter supervision. As was the goal of position-specific "Patrol Leader Training" BEFORE the invention of office "leadership skills" theory. As for INTENT, that is hard to prove, but all Leadership Development is a fad word game. The goal of word games has ALWAYS been to take position-specific training away from the Patrol Leaders: "In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill." http://inquiry.net/leadership/index.htm In "21st Century Scouting" we remove the Patrol Leaders themselves. "Trained" Staffers never notice. DeanRx writes: "Not sure what your ideal concept is Kudu?" According to Baden-Powell and Green Bar Bill, the purpose of a Patrol is to go out on Patrol. Without helicopter supervision. DeanRx writes: As for the opportunity to lead, without severe consequences... I don't see where that is a bad thing. That is the point, isn't it? The goal of all word games is provide the opportunity to play word games without severe consequences. Obviously then you must keep Patrols from going out on Patrol. Without helicopter supervision. DeanRx writes: "Well, how do you TEACH leadership without having an environment to screw up?" Since when is "teaching leadership" the goal of Scouting? Since two million Boy Scouts left the BSA, that's when. Since Patrol Leaders stopped LEADING Patrols out on Patrol. All in the name of "Character and Leadership." DeanRx writes: What are all the boys supposed to not be PL or SPL for their 1st 3 years in scouts, then hang around until just before their 18th birthday to get their leadership position? Not everybody "needs" to be a leader. It is a fake "need" caused by "Position Of Responsibilty" credit for Advancement, introduced the year that Green Bar Bill retired, leaving Scouting in the hands of indoor office experts. Why not apply their office "leadership" logic to the only remaining real "Position of Responsibility" in Scouting? Why should non-swimmers hang around until just before their 18th birthday to get their rightful leadership position as a BSA Lifeguard? "That to me is the very basis of why waterfronts that employ Leadership Development and do it well, often look like a chaotic mess! Chaos is a good thing. It's boys learning to save drowning boys. It's not going to be perfect, because you have novice leaders in leadership roles!! I agree changing lifeguards every 6 months is not ideal, but if every boy needs a POR to advance in rank and it is a larger sized Troop, how else do you make it work?" Yours at 300 feet, Kudu

DeanRx writes: "1) The opportunity to lead, fail and learn from it. Not many places in life you get to try your hand at being a leader and if it doesn't go quite as planned you don't get fired, or cost yourself or your company lots of $$, or in the case of the military or law enforcement, get someone killed." Or in the case of Scouting, replace Patrol Adventure with "Controlled Failure," and lose two million (2,000,000) Boy Scouts. Rotating "The Opportunity to Lead" every six months is just as much of a disaster for the Patrol Method as it would be for your company, the military and law enforcement. DeanRx writes: "4) The art of learning, then mastering, then teaching to another. This is EDGE method in a nutshell. Its been used for years and years by Armies to train soldiers, by med schools to teach doctors, etc... its a strong and proven method that BSA is smart to embrace (when done correctly)." "EDGE" and "when done correctly" is a contradiction in terms. Like all Leadership Development techniques, EDGE replaces the Patrol Method with a word game. For instance, the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster Training: Our Wood Badge experts removed the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol, and replaced them with EDGE. Replacing the Patrol Leader with a word game is not a trivial matter, DeanRx. It is a cult. A cult that dilutes the framework of outdoor Patrol Adventure, to give every boy a "turn" at Patrol Leadership. That is why Boy Scout membership is now limited to Cub Scout Survivors, and the great majority of red-blooded American boys seek adventure elsewhere. In a perfect world al-Qaeda would use EDGE to train its leaders, soldiers, and doctors. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

No one has mentioned a lot of good riding trails. Are horses that uncommon at many camps? So uncommon that the requirement that Scouts know "how to help in case of runaway horse" is used by Wood Badge Staffers and our professional millionaires to heap scorn upon the law that requires the BSA to offer the Scoutcraft program of 1916 (in exchange for our corporation's monopoly on Scouting): "So what do we mean by being Prepared For Life? Obviously we don't have to learn how to catch a runaway horse anymore. That's not an important skill!" http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm http://inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm

BSA Founder Dan Beard used Pushmobiles in his pre-Scouting program for older boys: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/spring/pushmobile.htm http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/spring/prairie_schooner.htm

He should have used EDGE.

"May as well include telegraph, smoke signals and jungle drums to the list." Don't forget honeybee texting: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/bugs/bee_messengers.htm