johndaigler

scion, great tag and welcome. Hard to solve a problem when you don't know the cause. Perhaps, he can be reasoned with - "When can we earn our cards back? At what times are our cards allowed? Just give me a chance to show you that Yugioh is more complicated and mentally demanding than poker or pinocchle. Can you please explain to me why the 52 card deck is OK, but other decks are not. Are Pinocchle and euchre banned, as well?" . . . Or perhaps, it's about power and the nearest person with a big enough stick is the CC. With all due respect to SMs, near and far, they shouldn't be making Troop policy without the input of the Committee. Perhaps, a conversation with some of the other leaders might help. Just because he's a bully, doesn't mean it's a good idea to become one yourself. Good Luck! jd

I was pretty angry when I saw that Headline, as, well. Though I don't think we can argue the headline isn't true, it seemed very unfair (unjust, immoral . . .) to besmirch Cubbing's good name because of some wacko. You can hardly describe this man or sum up his life by mentioning his old connection to our cause! My wife, who works with the press on a daily basis, talked me down off the ledge by (repeatedly, and for her, rather patiently!) explaining to me that it's not about fair or right, it's about selling newspapers. There's a person whose job it is to put headlines on stories, and he knows he's supposed to sell papers. So, he asks himself, what will sell papers?? Cub Scout Leader mass murderer... Lutheran Church President mass murderer... Town Ordinance Compliance Officer mass murderer... Just ask yourself, what catches your eye? People, rightfully, worry about their children. So, if you can put kids in the headline, you'll catch a lot of paper buyers. I dislike the whole label thing, but given that making money and big business are usually identified with the opposite of "liberal", it seems to me here's a great example of the myth of the Liberal Media. I don't think anyone can argue that only "liberals" buy newspapers. I doubt headline guys are automatically liberals - they're paper sellers - most likely, good-old-fashioned, Capitalist, free marketers! jd

uh, Mr., uh, OGE, sir, Are, uh, we being graded on a curve?? (This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Time to get a slice of the Internet Pie!!! try Schoolpop.com!!!!! It's not a quick fix, (though their E-Bayish auction is supposed to be their quick fix event)but it solves many of the traditional problems of traditional fundraisers. That is: People don't see value in products we sell at inflated prices (I DID NOT say popcorn. . .) and given that we're often selling JUNK FOOD (. . . other than popcorn), I think many would just as soon we asked for a check and skipped the $1 candy bar they see at the store for $.54. The same Parents are hit up continuously by us, school, church groups, soccer teams . . . Most fundraisers are short term answers and need to be "resold" every year or so. Management of the fundraising process is a pain in the . . . NECK schoolpop gives you a piece of the action that's going on anyway. For the Christmas holidays, I sent ~$200 worth of flowers to my wife, our moms, etc. Our Pack earned $27. That's a larger slice than you usually get, but imagine if every Scout family just gets a tiny nip of the money they spend on line - travel, toys, gift cards, clothing, software, etc., etc. It adds up, and even after the boys age out, the family might well continue to painlessly contribute. Now, if I could just convince them to give me a commission on these unsolicited sales pitches . . . jd

t487, WELCOME, and thanks for the post. It saddens me. Though, I guess I'm not surprised; I've been half done with similar posts before hitting the delete button. And, . . . probably . . ., I've caused a few readers to consider posts like yours -- though, I hope not too many!!! Scouting is filled with hundreds of thousands of volunteers. We all have good days and bad days. We have topics to which we're so emotionally attached we lose our tolerance, and sometimes, our Kindness. But those moments are rare, given the number of Scouters. Rare, even if we're only counting posters on this forum; the bad apples are few and far between. Even the rough moments are almost familial. Some of the most angst-filled posts come in pairs - you don't see one name unless he's responding to a specific other poster - like brothers who have to share a bed they've outgrown! One of my favorite parts of my Scouting experience is coming to this electric campfire and sharing - the good, and the bad. I've learned more by giving and taking here, than anywhere else in my Scouting adventure. I think there's still more for all of us to learn, and all of us to teach. Your post hammers too broadly, when it hits the forum as a whole. I understand the feelings behind it, because I'm too much of a sledge hammerer, myself. Why not use a smaller, more pointed tool and hit the targets at which you're aiming? When I step over your line, send me a PM or even publicly let me know I've gone too far. I'll listen (as I think will most of the readers and posters), and perhaps, I'll even learn. But, this recent post is so broad, most of us will ignore it, or feel unecessary guilt. Neither of which is appropriate or helpful. Worse, the posters you want to reach won't see that it's aimed for them. There are other Scout forums out there, but I haven't found any I like better. Even fools have lessons to teach. I wish you well, and I wish you'd stay. YIS jd

I think there's a bendable line. Optimally, I'd choose separate service projects in this instance. But, the reality is that it's extremely complicated to spring the boys for one, let alone two. I might try to rationalize it and explain it to the boys in such a way that it seems like you're doing the work of two separate projects. I know, . . . that borders on hypocrisy, . . . but the alternative is to draw dark lines in the sand and I don't like unbending rules all that much. Good Luck! jd

BSAChaplain, I appreciate the teaching value of the verse. How would you suggest approaching that (or any other) lesson with a group of mixed-Faith Scouts? Would you group Christian references with other sources? Would you omit references to Jesus and use verses and lessons from non-New Testament sources? My Pack is Reverently diverse and we feel the need to limit direct references to Jesus - or balance them with other choices. Unfortuantely, too often, that means skipping invocations and other "prayerful" moments, thus staying completely off the Reverence tightrope. Though convenient and practical, this seems terribly un-Scoutlike to us. I'm trying to find a better solution than religious-abstinence for my Cubs. ???? Respectfully, jd

Scoutingagain, you beat me to the punch, but you are totally on target!!!! VAOrdeal, check out pages 349 - 351 in that Webelos handbook!! A Scout is Brave!!! jd

As a new CC, here's where I'm going . . . 1) "DENS" - it's ALL about Dens. You need good trained DLs who see themselves as sparks not torches - Guides for the active and fun journey not generals leading the achievement march. PLAN AHEAD so that DLs get all the support the Pack can offer -- they deserve it! I agree with OneHour's description of the CM you want, but the CM needs to fill that role for DLs even more than for Cubs. Cubs, due to shared experiences and school groupings, see themselves as members of their Den much more than they see themselves as members of the Pack. The CM needs to be a good showman on Pack Meeting Night, but needs to be a strong supporter of DLs day in and day out. Again, a spark not a torch -- you can't make DLs do things your way; you have to help them accomplish their goals. Hopefully, Pack planning has kept you on the same page. DLs need to be experts on their particular Handbook - but not on the REPs, BnG Planning, Finances, etc. Too often DLs have other Pack jobs - The Pack needs enough volunteers so that DLs can just be responsible for doing the Pack's most important work - growing boys. When it comes down to it, I'd rather have good DLs than a good CM. 2)"KNOWLEDGE AND TRAINING" - I'm troubled by the number of people who think they can run a Den or a Pack without having read the appropriate handbooks and resource materials -- and/or by making local choices that blow National Policies out of the water. (Sure, sometimes you have to modify the program to fit local needs - but, IMHO, local needs and customs should take a backseat philosophically to Program. For example, awarding Rank Badges at BnG only. I understand why a Pack might make that choice, but it's not a good choice and the end result is undue weight carried by DLs and Cubs. Truly, it's not the better answer for the boys and their growth. Though, as I've said, I understand many of the practical reasons for making this choice.) I'm not the biggest fan of the basic 4 training courses, but they establish the mindset that this Scouting Thing isn't a connected gang of age-leveled play groups. We're all volunteers, but you just can't show up on meeting day and expect things to go well or to accomplish enough that boys will eventually earn their rank badges. In a similar manner, for example, you can't plan a good program year without knowing that the Bear book changes the approach that you used last year in the Wolf book. I think we double our work, and get into most of our troubles, when we aren't prepared to PLAN AHEAD and make good choices. DLs need to be experts on their particular Handbook. But not on the REPs, BnG Planning, Finances, Oudoor Activities, etc. Too often DLs have other Pack jobs - The Pack needs enough volunteers so that DLs can just be responsible for doing the Pack's most important work - leading a good program and helping boys grow. 3) "STEWARDSHIP" - what we do matters to the Cubs that will come into the Pack after we're gone. The turnover rate for Cub Scout Adult Volunteers is daunting. PLAN AHEAD so that volunteers are helping Committee Members and learning the ropes in preparation for the day when the one ages out and the other needs to step up to the plate. KEEP RECORDS of decisions and choices made so that each year you can spend time on program rather than reinventing wheels with a new set of volunteers. Make it easy for the Cub Leaders who will come after you. $0.02 jd

Nobody should be surprised - National has dragged its feet hoping that a better result would appear. We can't have it both ways. If we choose to be different, we choose to be treated differently. That fight's over (won or lost, depending on how you look at it) - why do we think we can keep fighting it? Why are we surprised and insulted each time we're reminded of historical truth? jd

This is crazy!!!! How can the judge do this??? Sure it's good for those boys, but what about the Separation of Scouting and State???? Who's footing all the bills? Who's safeguarding the other boys? Who's Leading? Crazy . . . Crazy . . .Crazy . . . jd

Kristi, There's no way you can do this by yourself! Find the appropriate District/Council pros and the COH/COR and have a sit down and make a plan. If the COH and COR won't step up to the plate and do their job, I suggest getting the COH to find another COR or the Pros to begin looking for a new CO. Perhaps there are some screws the Professional Scouters can tighten on this old CM? Missing money is definitely another areas for Pros, but Theft is handled by a different set of professionals. It might not be pretty, but if the people involved can't find the correct path, then the Police, etc. become necessary. It amazes me how service/youth organizations like Scouting and PTOs become these tiny little despotic monarchies. There's no reason (back in the history of your Pack) for all the control to have fallen into the hands of one person. I guess people just get comfortable letting someone else carry the ball - and before long, you can't see/control which way the ball carrier is running. It's tough to try to keep a coup bloodless. I think you might have to decide if it's worth it to you to win this fight. The boys are worth it - that's easy to say, but they'll be oblivious till it's all over and the program starts improving. You and a couple of others will have to wade through all the muck. Seems like there are sleepless nights ahead . . . Chip away at it as if it's a series of little problems. First step - getting help from the Professional Scouters to help you (re)establish the Committee with an appropriately informed and active CO and COR. Good Luck ! Keep us informed as you move through this - you aren't the only Scouter who will benefit from your choices and experiences. jd

EagleinKY - I like that!!! If he's still around, keep an eye on him. Sounds like a young man who is confident enough to put others before himself. No ego - there. Just pride in being one of the good guys!!! jd

This wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. Though I'm not convinced there isn't another shoe out there, dropping on our heads.

WELCOME!!! jd

Torveaux, I'm curious about: "As for wearing an unauthorized device, I would have to ask which Scouting value does that represent? Honesty? Respect?" jd

I can't believe there's a Pack Committee out there that isn't looking for a volunteer!! In our case, everyone does a couple of jobs. I'm a DL and CC and PTrainer. The CM is a DL. The PTreasurer is my ADL. The Membership Chair is a DL, etc. etc. I'd love it, if all the committee positions were filled by non-DLs. The DLs work hard enough with the boys - they should not have to carry the adult burden, as well. Maybe your Pack is different, but if a parent just called me up and said, "I'd like to help. What can I do?", I'd have a list of 6 jobs from which they could choose! Do they have a Pack Trainer? Once you're wearing that patch, people expect you to know the rules and rationales. I've found that most of our Leaders are less than fond of training, but listen to me more and expect me to have, or be able to find, the answers they need. Do they have a Webelos-Scout liason? An Activities Chair? A camping/Outdoors Chair? The key is to get your foot in the door; show your usefulness, and then start including yourself in the dialogue. Good luck! jd

I think we're better off watching - painful though it might be. We stress the Scout Law to our boys - do we stress it enough to ourselves? I don't think we need an IAD, but we need to be aware of who we are as a group, and the standards we've set. What are WE (BSA) doing about this issue and Scouters who, so obviously, don't live up to the Scout Law? Which youth oriented programs were shortchanged by Scouting taking money it didn't deserve? It will be hard to convince others of our high values if we regard thieves as "better" ("more Scoutish") people than athiests and homosexuals. Certainly someone is going to throw back into our faces some phrase about "not picking and choosing which parts of the Scout Law we live up to". How many bumper stickers about Values can we print, if we can't back them up with our Actions? We're all responsible, at least in some small way. We at least have the responsibility to make sure it's not happening around us. If we don't watch, how can we learn enough to keep it from happening again? jd

Instead of discussing the disturbing news, WE are in danger of BECOMING the disturbing news.

WELCOME, LPasn!!!!!! We collect "Den dues" and the money is managed by the DLs. Everyone knows that you could double those dues and the DLs would still frequently shell out personal cash to accomplish their Den activities. As a Pack we need to organize this better, but I don't want to get rid of this process. However, as I understand Pack finances, I've always believed this was a bending of the rules. Packs, not Dens, collect Dues. "Den dues" should be turned over to the Pack, and DLs should be reimbursed in a manner similar to the one described by LPasn. I can't say I like much about this CM and I'm definitely troubled by the lack of mentioning of CC and PT when it comes to Pack monies and decision making. But, PLasn, like all of us, you need to be sure of the rules, so you can help the Pack succeed. CMs don't "hire" DLs, the CC and the COR do. A Den has ONE DL, but I believe it can have more than one ADL. The "Founding Fathers" don't have the power to fold a Pack. The Committee - particulary the CC and PT - should be planning and controlling the spending of monies. If you have a system where the DLs have control, (I think it works, though as I said, I believe it's against the rules) everyone should be aware of the rules and respect them --- or get the Committee together and change them. Good Luck, jd

Ed, Isn't it just as likely that the individuals involved would already carrry a lack of respect for the ACLU and not want their assistance?

OGE, Interesting event!!! Definitely more to the story! That's obvious because many of the preaching group were let go and only a few were arraigned. Did anyone catch news coverage?? This story is from last November??? What has happened since? jd

I feel like I'm stepping out onto thin ice, but . . . When I see Cubs say the CS Promise, they always struggle to maintain their focus and their unity when they have to include their names. The BSA promise doesn't include the individual Scout's name. So, . . . Why do Cubs personalize their Promise? And, has dropping that ",_____________," ever been a topic of consideration? jd

Best of Luck! Don't be a stranger -- now you'll have even more time to share what you've learned along the way!! jd

Unc, Are you saying the military branches hire Eagles at a higher initial salary than others?? That's interesting!! Do you know, is it worded that specifically or do they word an explanation more along the lines Hunt is using ... "exhibited exemplary citizenship and have performed significant uncompensated service projects benefitting the community."? Is this an historic tradition or still an active practice? jd