johndaigler

Well played, Foto!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!! jd

"Charter Year" is an obvious thing for Units, but what about "fiscal year" and "program year"? it seems as if these are based on the choices of the Unit. Is this absolutely true, or is there more to the story? The question arose when examining the new Cub Outdoor Activity Award. Each Cub can earn it each "program year", when I asked at the council office for clarification, I was told that "program year" was a term used by Units, but had no official use (not their words, but my understanding). "Program Year" for us (until today...) has always meant the day after graduation until the next graduation (June 1 to May 31, e.g. "Wolf Year" and "Bear Year"). Is there a common standard? Does it matter, except for the Unit, planning program for the next twelve months?? jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

As far as I can tell, the start date for meeting the requirements seems to be a late clarification -- it wasn't in print when I downloaded these requirements back in August. I checked with a council office this morning about the same thing. It seems this is new to everyone and they're working to get up to speed, as well. They (several office personnel, volunteers and pros; but not the unavailable Advancement Chair and CE) said that many councils do (less than 5 day) "Day Camps" during the school year as well as their summer programs. The week long summer version is only one type of "Day Camp". So, a W2 could get the award if they attended one of these. . . I don't think it's an issue that Cubs work on this award while graduating from one grade/rank to another. It's not rank specific, though if they graduate they will, obviously have to meet the requirements for the new grade/rank. The award states that it can be earned each "program year" (-- which started another line of unanswerable questions, BTW.) I wouldn't be surprised if, in the end, last summer's Day Camp attendees were allowed to earn the award this year - but at the moment, it doesn't seem as if that is happening. I don't know if this would be a council level decision or not. I wasn't able to speak to the Advancement chair, so I'm still hopeful. jd

Vaordeal, WELCOME!!! jd

Eamonn, Thanks - Knowing myself, the time limit comment was Terrific, and NECESSARY!!! I still think everything has to be done in 40 minute periods!! Ed, thanks! I've downloaded a copy but haven't had a chance to more than glance at it, yet. jd

Besides, it's quite possible that any district/Council lines don't run along county lines anyway. GOOD LUCK!! jd

Greg, WELCOME!!! First, maybe I can help with a little poster frustration. It seems like your posts are only being partially printed. Are you aware you have some time to edit your posts? You'll see the edit icon (paper and pencil) on your own posts. Before I post, I copy everything and then if my post gets caught up like that (occasionally, but if it happens it generally happens to the same post of mine several times in a frustrating row!)then I just hit the edit icon and repaste a complete copy in edit mode. I hope that helps. More importantly, your question . . . I don't think there's a reason that the feild trip CAN'T be counted, so if you'd like, go ahead and use it. But, I think the question is can your trip add value that the school trip didn't contain? You and your co-leaders will have to figure that one out. I guess this trip covers Go See It - 3g. Can a repeat trip to a Fire Station help you with Electives 26, 27, 28, and/or 39?? Have Fun! jd

I'm in the beginning stages of putting together a "Scouts' Own" service as part of (just before) our Blue N Gold in February. I've been able to track down a model used by a Woodbadge Course (EC 462 W) in 1992; one from "Pine Tree Camp"; and another from "buckskin.org". I've been to P.R.A.Y. and NAPS websites. I've checked in with my Council, as well. So, I have a good beginning but, of course, a thousand questions. Any helpful ideas or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Does anyone have ideas for "Cubbing-down" (no disrespect intended!!) what, so far, are "Boy Scoutish" materials - texts and songs? Does anyone have resource suggestions I should check out? It doesn't appear that clergy are necessarily involved, any thoughts? Should I invite respresentative clergy? Should I involve them? It definitely needs to be non-denominational and diverse. Any texts that you'll include when you plan yours? Any "thinks", I haven't thinked? THANKS, jd

THANKS, OGE!!!!! THANKS, SEAN, HUGH, and BERNARD!!!!! Lehigh Valley Rocks!!!!!! Great Place, Great People!!!!!! jd

Thanks.

ScoutMomAng, WELCOME!!!!!! jd

I would add assessment to training. Both of, and by, the trainees. I would help bridge the (we/they) gaps between BSA and local Scouters. For example, I'd create a better plan for gathering innovations/ideas than allowing Scouters to feel the best they can do is share on Scouter.com jd BTW, OGE, Councils can mandate Training????? I thought that was a CO local option . . . Can councils alter training and training syllibi????(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

BW and UG, Thank you for the answers. They've helped answer some of my concerns, but led me to others. Though, I think, BW, you and I may be on slightly different pages -- your answer seems directed at improving the Scouter (good, helpful answer that it was) and I was directed at improving the process. Between the two of you, it seems to me that, you are saying: 1) Scouters with ideas should work to share those ideas on a local level, moving from Unit, to District, to Council. 2) There is no regular process for gathering Scouters ideas on any of these levels. Though, I see where there are opportunities for a Scouter to "force" himself into standard processes. 3) National sets policies and training curricula, etc., etc. without opening doors to ideas/input from Scouters in Units. Though, from what I've read in other threads, apparently selected Scouters are asked to contribute in the process. If I'm on the right track, then that leads me to two more concerns: 1) Without an organized process for collecting innovations, Scouters seem to be stuck with a Creativity Catch-22 --- Having innovative thoughts/ideas is not "accepting and following the Program". 2) Traveling the path of Unit, District, Council seems a terribly ineffective road if none of these levels are truly responsible for process and program. In my example, "Training" is developed on a National level, isn't it? I would have to fight my way through layer after layer of Scouting bureaucracy before the idea even gets to those who create Training. To share or promote an idea that the Scouter believes in, he (she) has to travel around convincing others that the present program/process needs change. We see time and time again, how well that is received -- it seems this is a bit of a gauntlet for new ideas to run through. jd

bizzybbb, WELCOME!!! G2SS guidelines state that the only Cubs who should be tending the fire are Webelos. Suggest that the campfire always be the responsibility of the Webelos and their leaders - everyone else should follow a hands off policy . . . until you break out the marshmallows. Though, I always think it's better to see s'mores as dessert, rather than "campfire" - once it gets dark, it's time for songs, skits, etc., not running around with pointed sticks and globs of flaming goo! Good Luck and Have fun. jd

What is the process for sharing innovative ideas within BSA? If a Scouter has seen something that deserves comment, whether it's an idea that expands or diverges from "accepted" Program, what should the Scouter do to share that concept with National so that the idea receives any deserving thought by those who create program, handbooks, policies, training manuals, regs., et al.??? As an example, through earning my "TRAINED" badge as a DL, I have come to believe that some form of assessment, of and by, the trainees would improve the process. With whom should that idea be shared? jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

B:)b White, You're good at setting up situations so that you already know the answer to the question. That's not a complaint, nor a criticism - though you've probably read enough posts from me to know that it's not a 100% compliment either. I don't think anyone is going to come up with the contra-answer to your riddle, but your riddle is limited in scope - and I would suggest, doesn't address the issue with which most of us struggle. Here's my thoughts, though like others I probably need to get sent to the "start your own thread" showers . . . New leaders (get) volunteer(ed). It probably takes weeks, if not months, to get trained; and, we know, too many of us don't ever get enough training. We know that training isn't a cure-all or even consistently "Quality", itself. We also know that most of us are walking into less than perfect programs. I suggest the numbers of trained leaders and Quality units as evidence. Sorry, I can't paint it more clearly, but it seems true to me. The program works, I think you make the point well, and it's a great point, but many of us struggle to deliver that program in an imperfect environment with imperfect skills. A Unit's leaders don't follow program (to some varying extent), the new leader walks in, and . . . The Program works, but if the Unit doesn't - what good does knowing that if I do it right, nothing bad will ever happen. Now, I suppose the answer is to get everybody on board with the Program. But, the concerns we read about here, time and again, are often the results of more experienced Leaders not following program and "how do the posters make a bad situation, better?". In a structure where everyone is a volunteer and most are only partially informed, the issues become People issues. Training and Program don't offer simple answers to these concerns. My point is, it's not enough that following the program keeps you on the right path. What the program is, is fine, but what about what the program isn't? It would help resolve many of the issues on these threads if the training and the program also helped Scouters steer back onto the right path and take your Unit/District/Council along for the ride. One final example: My Pack doesn't start working toward Bobcat until the fall of the Wolf year. We award Bobcats in November, and Wolves at the BnG in Feb. Couldn't tell ya where these traditions come from, but we all know they're not Program-friendly (nor 2nd grader friendly!). Got anything in the Program or the training to help me? Sure, I can find the right answers in the resources, and I can share that info --- but these people have all been Cub Leaders for years, the district hasn't helped them grow toward program, they're neighbors, they're friends, their kids play with my sons, yada, yada, yada. The ramifications of doing the right thing are neither simple, nor short-term. Changing history isn't for the faint-hearted (sp?), so telling me the program works, if I follow it, kinda irks me. (Which, I know, I should be above, but I'm still learning.) At the very least, it doesn't help me with the real issues --- People. jd

I'm afraid the Tigers' structure has people looking for "non-homes" for Den Meetings, and then DLs and parents get used to the school (or whatever) setting, and ask why would I want this "messiness" in my home? My Den meets in my home, and yes, SWMBO was very uncertain - especially for those couple of weeks when we were 16 Wolves! It took a week or two for the boys to figure out that the rules were different in my home than in the school cafeteria. It was particularly tough for the neighborhood guys who come over all the time to play with my son - they struggled with Cub meetings being different than playing with Jamie. I think the home setting helps create a family feel - the beginnings of a brotherhood. Plus, with the garage and basement there are built-in places to get messy and do all the prep work, like pre-drilling, and using the power tools, so the Cubs are set up to do their parts. Eamonn, I don't mean to force another thread's issues upon this one, but are some of youir concerns issues that could be (but presently doesn't seem to be) addressed in training? jd

cubdadinnj, WELCOME!!! I don't think there's a better answer than OGE's, listen to him. The only time I've ever heard of alcohol being a part of anything scouting is when there's a fundraiser for FOS sponsored by non-scouts and attended only by adults (WITHOUT uniforms). I even had to think long and hard about that one - pretty strong bending of a very HARD rule! BTW, what part of Jersey? For 3 years we lived west of Clinton. jd

"the new course addresses program differences between the different Den levels which the older course did not do a good job of." BW, what differences should have been mentioned? Aside from uniform. OGE said the assessment tool is standard for his Units. Is it standard nationally? OGE, even I'm not so bold as to offer my talents to the Training Team when I hadn't been trained, yet! But you do throw a dilemma at me. Do I put my efforts toward my Pack or toward the process? I'm runnin out of time . . . jd Tomorrow, I'm running out to the Scout Store to get a look at the syllabi - take em home if I can. I'm very interested to see what's in there compared to what I think I heard and saw. BTW, if it's not the goal of initial training courses to help DLs become immediately better at delivering program to Cubs, is there someONE who should be fulfilling that support role for new DLs?

Perhaps expectations are unnecessarily raised then not met. . . If you call something "Essential" and "Specific", shouldn't it be? jd

Uncle G, I understand what you're saying, but BECAUSE BSA "deals with people", it's important that the people are taken into consideration. If a new DL walks into training not ever having heard of "Program Helps", then the 3 - 5 minutes spent on FOS seems like wasted time. That's just one example, there are others. I struggle with this because, there's no opportunity for student input, no assessment of trainers, or training materials. Of course, you're going to get critical comments on a Forum or in the parking lot. Where else can you say, "Hey, that was great. I really liked the explanation of how Funding $ helps at the different levels." OR "I don't get why they say the Den (patrol) is the focal point of everything Scouting, but then don't mention the Den and Den activities when it comes to Funding." UG, you wrote, "I think that if you leave a BSA training with a better idea of where you find and how to use the materials that are available, it's well worth the few hours and couple of bucks you spent in obtaining it.". . . To a point I agree, but since that benefit can be achieved in 5 minutes, I woould suggest that the other 85 minutes can still be assessed and improved. Everytime, a beginning DL opens the "Program Helps" they go into shock and FEAR. At first glance, it's an intimidating tool, but if we spent 15 minutes showing them how to use "PH", they would be much better DLs than what they were when they came in. "You go to the basic training and you get a lot of information very quickly." . . . Why? Who thinks this is the way to go? Don't we want "Trained" DLs to be better at delivering program to the boys than "Untrained" DLs? What in those 4 hours makes their next Den Meeting better? I don't think you can really argue that whatever is in those two courses, it's not the WHOLE 3 - 4 hours. Going back to your parachute analogy and hitting the ground . . . I think that if you're training consisted of background data on flying, the aims of skydiving, funding of skydiving clubs, and the offical skydiving uniform - you would have gone SPLOT. There was, in your training, "stuff" that helped you land better than you would have if you hadn't trained. That's the part that seemed to be missing from my training experience, and the part on which I have no way of officially commenting. Did you really have enough time between training and Splotting to go find, and pay for, your own resources, then read through them, and plan your actions, before the ground (8 2nd grade boys) came rushing at you? My other angst filled tirade aside, I think we should include better assessment in training - assessment of students, trainers, materials, process, etc. jd

va-scouter, If you haven't already done so, check out the "Hypothetical Pack..." thread. Some of the same questions, and good answers. I feel your pain! I amazed at how you were able to recruit as well as you did!! Even with all the chaotic non-program, the word's getting out that someone is doing something right! Feel good about that!! There are others here who know better than I, but, I think, the right order to go is: DLs CM CC UC COR CO's IH DC DE CE From the sound of it, you've tried, or discounted, several of these steps. Keep climbing the ladder. I can't imagine this is going to have a simple or pretty ending for you. Even if you are able to save and redeem the Pack it's going to require a Phoenix-like rebirth -- and you know what has to happen to the Phoenix first! Good Luck!! Tell us how it works out! jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

WELCOME, Berklich!!!!!! WELCOME to your whole Unit!!!!! Bring in guest Scouts from the District/Council, representing all the other packs and Troops that your new Unit is joining!!! If you're close enough to Canada, bring in an international brother and help explain that purple circle over your boys Hearts! Mark your birthday by celebrating Cub Scouting's 75th!!! I love EagleinKY's idea, but it seems more adult to me. I wonder if you can manage a celebration for the Pack as a whole, and find time when the adults can celebrate the beginnings of their journey together. It may seem like overkill, but adults and Cubs tend to celebrate differently and it's essential to celebrate the efforts of all the volunteers and parents. And, as EagleinKY said, the CO and COR (charter organization Representative)are terribly important. HAVE FUN! Good Luck!!! Come back and tell us how it goes! jd

I think the issue gets even greyer, because when other boys see the behavior, it impacts their choices. Even if the two friends are fine with the others' words, do you want your other Scouts using those phrases with each other. Boys are potentially thicker skinned (though puberty sends them through some wacky periods), but Cubs can be terribly sensitive. How about this for a test: Do you want your son speaking that way to another Scout, or being spoken to that way? jd

CLAP, CLAP, CLAP, CLAP . . . Trailpounder, at this moment, I AM TREMENDOUSLY PROUD OF YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOUR VILE, MINDLESS COMMENTS DISPLAY AN IGNORANCE, FEAR AND HATRED THAT ARE EMBARASSING!! PLEASE, LEAVE ME OUT OF ANY OF YOUR FUTURE THOUGHTS. FROM THIS POINT FORWARD, YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY!!! JD