johndaigler

encsteph, WELCOME!! Loved the above ideas, here's just a few thoughts . . . I lived in that part of Jersey for three years. Spruce Run is nice, though I can't vouch for April --- BBBbbbbbbbrrrrrrrr!!!!!! I'm glad you're not considering the water! I'll bet Hunterdon County has some resources for you to consider - naturalists, etc. Be sure to visit that yellow center pullout of G2SS that describes which activities are approved for which age group. Especially the Fire - it's such an attractor, but only Webelos should be physically involved. Be ready for rain. Us the April monthly theme and Webelos activity badge theme for activity ideas. Tire them out and eat dinner earlier rather than later. The less you do after dark the better - except, of course, the campfire. Take the campfire seriously -- filled with fun and songs etc., but respect the magic! Does that local Troop have ashes for their campfire? Your first campout would be a great time to start your own campfire heritage! Keep the weekend structured enough that people (with all due respect, you should read that "parents") feel they're expected to be somewhere at specific times. Too many choices, or too much of a feeling that "I'm here, that's enough", kills the boys' enthusiasm for each activity. The more you can involve the parents, the better. At the very least, they should be observing what their boys are doing. Buddy - up Did I mention it's gonna rain? Overplan - many parents will not "get it". Be ready to make decisions with/for them. Just putting a tent in a reasonable spot will be beyond many of your parents' experience. Setting it up, as well. Fun is easy enough, be sure to decide your Purpose during the planning stage. What's the point (beyond fun) for the Tigers? Wolves? Bears? Webelos? Leaders? Parents? Invite your Unit Commissioner - use his experience in the planning, and the leading of activities. HAVE FUN!!!! jd

FB justs wants to wear the manly woodbadge emblem earring. What says Scouting better than an axe in your ear?? I definitely don't think the fleur-de-lis needs to be dainty, though. The young men of the new millenium need sensitive, yet rugged, body piercers. And choice of gold or silver - some skin tones just can't carry off metallics as well as others!!! Actually, . . . if we make them for the Cubs, then we can mandate that they wear a different one each year!!! (Just in case I haven't said something along those lines in the last 24 hours!!) jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

I think I resemble that remark! Wolf DL was fun, this CC and Pack Trainer stuff has a heavy taint of seriousness!!!!!!!

That is just gross enough to be cool! But when they want next month's field trip to be to a slaughter house, don't say I didn't warn ya!!!! Yuck!

t487, Don't make it complicated for you, or your son - Scouting shouldn't distance you from from each other. DAD! Definitely, Dad! jd

Oldasmnewsm, Just a little silver lining . . . The younger guys are easier to WOW! - high adventure for them is gonna be a weekend campout. You've got the knowledge to play all the supporting roles. Patrol name -- "Underdogs" -- superheroes facing a serious uphill climb!! Cool custom patrol patch! Equipment costs and organizational details will be minimized. These boys will be a team for the rest of their lives -- this is really an opportunity that few scouts get -- The SMs undivided attention. No big boy fear, intimidation or vices. You are all gonna love sittin around the campfire - stories, songs, etc. - these guys are gonna buy-in, big time! There is absolutely no one who's gonna know everything. The sharing and joint experience is going to be phenominal. One minivan driver and your good to go!! The local press is gonna love this story - start with a service project and let the reporter know that in a few years these boys are gonna be high adventure demons! (Make sure the boys are around to hear that!) No girl issues! (at least not real big ones!) Merit badge classes will be easy to organize for the whole crowd! These guys are young enough that "cynical" is NOT part of their daily schtick. Middle school teachers make great merit badge counselors. Rechartering won't take all that long! In a few years, YOU are going to be the proudest SM on the planet!!! Stop sitting there reading, you've got tons of work to do!!! YIS jd

"The majority of the patrol leader's work at summer camp has to do with the patrol cooking." Is this an absolute?? jd

Again, welcome! I don't imagine too many people around here see me as a by the book person, but the book works for a lot of Units. If you've moved away from what has worked for most units for 95 years, I assume it was based on lots of thought. I'm curious. jd

WELCOME, Dug!!! Your thread title and intro paragraph were interesting, and a bit confrontational -- particularly since all you did was offer "very controversal and even threatening" without telling us anything about yourself, or your "vastly different" Unit -- Dramatic, even aggressive, but not particularly cooperative. Hopefully, you're here to share, and learn, and teach -- not just to confront and conflict. There's gobs of knowledge and experience here, but also passions and opinions the size of Mt. Rushmore. Bring all your ideas, we welcome the content to discuss, but sometimes successful discusssion and debate requires minimizing your ego and maximizing your skin thickness!! I wish you well and look forward to hearing about your interesting unit. YIS jd

G5, Thank you. jd

I would not want to grovel to the young man that left; it clearly was inappropriate to leave the way he did, and doing so didn't show leadership or scout spirit. However, it might be prudent to have somebody in the troop talk to the boy's parents and find out the whole scoop of what went on in the review, and go from there. Bad attitudes can be contagious, and it would be a good idea to find the antidote quickly before the rest of the patrol are infected. Torribug, You obvious aren't the only one who's posted with these feelings, so please don't take this as a personal criticism. I, truly, just don't understand where you guys are coming from. I don't get: What's unScoutlike about refusing to be mistreated? Doesn't standing up against injustice show leadership and Scout spirit? Bad attitude? Find the antidote before the rest are infected? I think this comment should be aimed at the BOR member not the Scout!!!!! I'm obviously missing something that you folks are seeing in this situation. Any help? Respectfully, jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

OGE, you're close enough to get over to Passaic. Can you grab me a dog with mustard and relish?? You can keep the soda, Semper said he'd pay for the shipping!!! Good Luck, Troop 1!!! If I was still in Hunterdon, I'd be there!!!!

My apologies for muddying the waters. Of course, you're right, Trevorum. I was speaking to the lack of a Pagan Religious Emblem and wan't clear enough. The "Rule of 25" is odd enough to create confusion and angst, I'd rather not feed that particular fire. Merlyn, you seem to be writing with the authority of knowledge. . . . "And that rule of 25 was created out of whole cloth solely to prevent pagans from creating a recognized religious award." . . . I'm not sure how you would have such knowledge. Without it, you're putting yourself at risk of being called a liar. Perhaps, you could clarify. jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

I don't want to be a Brat about it but, Semper's work needs a little Polish!

Thanks, Rooster, ... very interesting! Merlyn's seemingly knee-jerk challenge aside ... I also find it interesting that you posted this article. Something about it caught your eye, and I believe more than the obvious opportunity to get Merlyn and Ed to write mean things at teach other. This article clearly points to a rise in Neo-Paganism. A thought that, I would have thought, doesn't sit well with you. Do you think Scouts is going to need to make more room at the table for Pagans and their Religious Awards? With the exception of this "Rule of 25" that has recently been discussed around our campfire, Neo-Pagans fit all our other criteria for fully embraced memebership in BSA. I'm assuming your post isn't signalling you're rolling out the WELCOME mat. SO, what is it you're thinking? jd

I guess I'm gonna have to disagree on this one. I think this thread has focused on the wrong behavior. We should be exclaiming over the SMs behavior - not the behavior of the boy. The SM doesn't represent society. He doesn't get to add his behavioral preferences to the requirements. He doesn't get to publicly embarass and/or negatively judge a young boy - certainly not for wearing an earring. He doesn't get to overrule the parents' decision to let the boy wear the earring. "Old School" isn't a term that we get to use to describe people misusing their position because they were brought up differently than the young man standing in front of them. Let's not throw the Scout Law at the 11 year old and give the SM a pass. It's not trivial. It's not a small matter that we have this great opportunity and responsibility to work with young men and their families. If we are small in our behavior, it minimizes all that we are and hope to accomplish. We all know that each Scout's adventure depends mostly on the quality of the Leader most directly involved in the boy's Scouting experience. If this is near the beginning of that boy's 7 years of Scouting -- What the HECK can he expect from this point on? --- OK, this your test drive - you gonna buy this car??? I hope the boy and his father find another avenue into Scouting. I think the lesson the father and son learned is not the one FScouter and Acco40 think they learned. MAYBE the boy and his father could have responded differently to the situation, but let's not trivialize the manner in which they were treated. How many of us would stand there and let someone make us do something, when they don't have the right/authority to make the demand?? I think we could jump this thread right into the old one about HAZING! My $.02, jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

LOL --- perhaps I shouldn't be, But I am!!!! Semper, You're on quite a Roll!!!!!!!!

Practice, Practice, practice. Communicate, communicate, communicate. Be familiar with your equipment. Can you put up your tents in the dark? Can you find the one thing you need in your pack without unpacking every time? Bear bags are funny looking, but a serious responsibility. 10 mountain miles a day can be tough, is the crew physically ready? Know your feet and how to care for them. The knots, map and compass, and your other Scouting skills are vital - Philmont is not a walk in the park. It's serious enough not to take it lightly. Work at becoming a cohesive unit, members need to think of their responsibility to the group as well as their own personal journey. Don't be afraid, be prepared - know what you're in for by talking (like this! ) to folks who have been. Read the books, visit the websites. Be mentally familiar with the place, so you can enjoy the adventure. Think of it as a live action group final exam - you don't need to know everything, but as a group, your crew should be well versed in all your Scout skills. You be the Leadership expert and example. HAVE FUN!!! Two trips to Philmont were far and away the highlight of my 10 years as a Scout. And now as a Scouter, I still haven't found any better memory.

Hunt, I think drawing a line between classtime and non-classtime is a bit of a faulted argument. The school district decides how the school day is structured, but that doesn't change the nature of the captive audience. Nor, IMHO, does it really change the argument about good use of the school day (but given the opportunity I'd go on and on about better use of longer school days and longer school years). To force kids to sit through a recruiting event when in reality they are uninvited isn't appropriate. I would be unhappy if my son was made to sit quietly and listen to the Episcopal Choir (just as an example, no offense intended)recruit during his lunch time. If the Choir only accepts Lutherans, then my son is excluded and needn't be listening to such a sales pitch. Now imagine the entire school is Lutheran, except my son. It's just not appropriate, and simple enough to avoid. I think that the court shouldn't have made any different ruling in the first place. I don't see how they can view this any differently than their final standing. When I send my boy off to school, it most certainly is not for the purpose of sitting through private groups' recruiting speeches. The silly thing is that it's very easy to use these rules and still accomplish what we want. But, it looks bad when we cheat. Aren't we against cheating? jd

OGE, Do you think a cross-shaped earring would have received a different response from the SM?? Hmmmmmmm . . . I 'm not sure if that would make me feel better, or worse, about the whole situation . . . FScouter, what's trivial about an 11(?) year old being publicly repudiated? The severe reaction was on the part of the SM - the Scout and his Dad probably took a look at the next 7 years and couldn't find enough good to outweigh the bad that had been shoved in their face. They voted with their feet. Good for them - a scout is Brave. The way I feel about all the wonderful things to be found in Scouting, it took a whole lot more Brave to stand up, alone, against the "petty tyrant with the funny hat" and say, "You're wrong, I'm gone."! jd

I'd let the parents draw the line. The boy's mom is probably a better hand with the mascara than I would be.

This is just a piece from the court's ruling . . . "There is substantial evidence that the Boy Scouts' current recruiting efforts take place during school hours, at a location where the district requires the students to be, and begin with a district representative telling the students to be quiet and, in most cases, to listen to the Scout recruiter. For the students to be in a lunch room at lunch time is a normal school function, as is their listening to a district employee or their being on the school grounds after lunch and before classes resume. In that context, the recruiter's action of remaining on the school grounds after his presentation in order to talk with interested students, while continuing to use the authority of the district to facilitate recruiting, is a continuation of that school activity. In short, there is substantial evidence that, by giving the Boy Scouts representatives access to students in these circumstances, the district itself offered the Scouting program to those students. That is, in itself, a school activity." Not to carry this ball too far, but as soon as a parent spoke up about this practice (if not proactively), the school and Scouts could have and should have modified how they handled on-site recruiting. There are ways to accomplish the good that would be acceptable to the courts. jd

OGE, I understand your point about class time not being mentioned in the article. That's true, though, I think it's safe to assume that it occurred during the school day and is thus subject to the complaint about misuse of school time. But, my concern isn't just about that detail. "...The court said while all students have been required to listen to an introductory presentation, "only the students who meet a religious test may accept the invitation to join."..." Why would the school MANDATE that kids sit through a recruiting presentation for ANY outside activity? Should our children then be forced to sit through pitches by the Y? private afterschool childcare programs? sports academies? local church choirs? It just doesn't make sense to me to use a public school's child gathering structure in this way. It seems cheap and lazy on the part of everyone involved. The entire planet is critical of how we use our public schools - in this case, it seems to me, that the criticism is valid. respectfully, jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

OGE, (what I read as your) sarcasm aside, you're not really saying that a public elementary school is right to mandate that their students sit through a BSA recruitment speech, are you? The ridiculous thing is that it doesn't need to be done this way!!! There are plenty of ways to reach kids - in and out of school. Merlyn is certainly right that there are better uses of class time than forcing kids to listen to extra-school activity sales pitches. Both the Scout Leader and the school Principal ought to know better! We embarass ourselves when we break or even bend obvious situational rules and circumstances. We look desperate and hypocritical. Such a waste of everyone's time and money, and our reputation!! We don't have to cheat to win - all we have to do is BE who we say we are!! We'll lose more Scouts (and more public goodwill) using those type of techniques than we'll gain with them. It's just another shot in our own foot! jd

Why do we keep shooting ourselves in the foot?