johndaigler

Ok, I see what you're saying, but (I guess I'm not really buying much of it ---- really, one of my problems is I am [Parents are] buying 3 Cub handbooks, 3 neckerchiefs, 3 slides, 3 belt buckles, certainly more than 1 pair of pants and at least 2 shirts). . . but, at least as much, it's the purpose that I question... Den identity is created by shared experience not by unform. And if you're saying that a visible emblem is needed, then there's the Den strip. Don't most Troops rely on the Patrol Emblem to serve this purpose on the uniform? If it's valid that the boys strive for the new uniform pieces as a visible sign of "growing up", then why isn't this a custom used by "uniformed" schools throughout the nation? Even if you feel there's value in a single grade level symbol like a neckerchief -- do we need hats, belt buckles, neckerchief slides, SOCKS...And, if this is a valuable tool -- how commonly is it used by troops? I think the Den is an easy identifier for boys -- these are the friends he meets with almost weekly, these are the peers that share most of his Scouting experiences -- not to mention the boys he has in his classes at school and plays with on non-Scouting days. I struggle more with Cubs feeling a part of the whole. I'd rather see more use of Pack identifiers -- pack neckerchiefs, etc. I'm not sure we can validate that kids look as far ahead as we're suggesting. He wears his wolf neckerchief and has a blast earning his wolf badge. After graduation, he gets to begin working on his Bear badge. Does he really get the differences? Does he think about the cool stuff the Bears did this past year? Does he know that what Bears do are different than what he did? If the fun program continues, does the new neckerchief matter? I think the new handbook is exciting because it has all sorts of new adventures locked in those pages. I know 2nd/3rd graders get that, but I don't think the neckerchief color matters unless the adults make it matter. We do. But, Why do we do it? foto, you said, "Tigers look up to the Wolves, Wolves look up to the Bears, and Bears look up to the Webelos." I don't think this is a truism. Though I can see that it would have value if it was true. How do your Cubs know that Webelos are worth looking up to? I'm a Wolf DL, who's about to become CC. I'm not asking to challenge your statement, but to learn how I can make it so in my Pack. The Cubs in our Pack don't look outside their Den in the way you're suggesting. And I can tell you that in elementary schools across the country this concept is generally NOT true. 2d graders do not look up to 5th graders in the way you're suggesting for Wolves and Webelos. Moms saving momentos, and identifying your unit's kids by grade level don't cut it for me. Convenient? Yes. Sentimental? Yes. Purposeful enough to mandate several new uniform pieces at a cost of about $125? No. jd

I'm with Hunt. Expect Cubs to be there, then let DLs accept or deny permission to miss the event (while the car is raced by proxy). jd Sorry you have to put up with your leadership team's ideosyncracies, CC!!

hey, CC Sounds like the issue is more about the CM's behavior than about "Little Johnny" and his Dad. I don't think there's a right answer here. In some situations, you choose the greater good for the greater number. In some, you leave the flock and go look for the lost sheep. I'm usually a fan of working with the rules you have. Change the rules if you want, but not in the middle of the process. If your Pack has established a system that allows little johnny and his dad to pull of this stunt with the CMs support, it doesn't seem like this is the time to fix it - or be stressed by it. . . . But, I'd start working on new rules for next year the day after this year's PWD. Good Luck, Don't fret, you've already won more than a PWD! jd

singme, you're getting good advice so far. Better than that, you've shown you're concerned and trying hard yourself. We all wish you tons of luck, and are eager to help. You have a lot going on in that initial post of yours. Sounds like a big problem!! But it's not. It's just a pile of little ones. First, to help with your Bears: You're just gonna need to find the time to sit down and read the Bear Handbook - cover to cover. That will ease your mind and help you see what a good job you've already started doing! Second, find your Cubmaster and Committee Chairperson and have a nice long talk. There are some significant details that should have been explained to you when you where given those startup materials. If you can, get a copy of the Cub Scout Leader Book - it will help clear up a great number of organizational details. You'll probably have more questions after you've read the book and chatted with the Pack Leaders. Come on back and we'll help with some of your concerns. Good Luck, Have Fun - the rest will fall into place! jd

WELCOME, 8113!! Was the ski trip a Den activity or a Pack activity? If it was a Pack activity, then the CM and CC need to fill the authority roles you're considering. If there hasn't been an incident at a Den activity then I think your role should be concerned parent to concerned parent. Please be careful, though. Your post already shows some pre-judging (understandable when it's your son with the bloodied face!). You can't be both a parent and a DL in this situation. You'll end up thinking like one and trying to act like the other. What would you do if the puncher was your son? What would you do if your son wasn't involved in the situation? Are there any witnesses who have a better handle on what actually happened? If the boy has been diagnosed with learning disabilities, the parent and boy's counselors, doctors, etc. should be able to help with corrective and maintenance techniques. You seem to be guessing, so it appears a parent talk is overdue. Semper suggested talking to the parent with boy in tow - if you do that you'll need to have your son there, as well. Permission to hit back isn't an appropriate response. Good Luck, jd

So, VAOrdeal, I hope you're paying attention and that you're quite pleased with yourself!!!! Now, do you still wonder why the adult leadership of your unit stays away from your conflict????? Do you know the prayer of St. Francis?? . . . it's easily learned, but easily forgotten. jd

KICC, WELCOME!!! I'm surprised, but pleased, the old CO can place your flag in their museum room. I'm sure you've been down this road, but wouldn't your new CO be the likely purchasers of your Unit Flag?? Sounds like a quick hitting fund raiser is in your future! I'm sure you can come up with a hundred ideas. Here's an obscure one -- "schoolpop.com". They could turn out to be a good long term on-going fund supplier, but they also have a "E-Bay Auction" technique that can net you some quick money. Anyone, if you shop on the internet check out "schoolpop". Billions and Billions of $$$ are spent on internet shopping - there's no reason your unit shouldn't get a touch ---- or just sign up and send your contributions to "Cub Scout Pack 56"!!!!!! jd

Welcome back,412!!!! Tiger Vests? YES! jd

Rooster, Here was a thread where you might have put some of your Conservative Agenda aside for a moment or two - or at least told the boy it was OK for him to think like his parents without taking the moment to spout anti-Liberal rhetoric. The conversation isn't about what to think or argue but HOW to Think and Argue. For what my two cents and limited life experiences are worth -- I've never met a Liberal who thought that it was necessary to disagree with their parents. Some do, some don't. The behaviors of those who do are in their nature more noticeable than the behaviors of those who don't disagree. Neither have I met a Liberal who thought being a Boy Scout was necessarily a bad thing. Some do, some don't. The behaviors of those who do are in their nature more noticeable to us than the behaviors of those who don't.

pack1003, WELCOME!!! Our program is similar. In fact, we probably go a bit longer than you, but we definitely start earlier. I love the crossing over ceremony - especially if you can get a good bunch of Scouts to do their thing. For us, the OA plays a terrific ceremonial role. Our entertainment is usually professional - last year it was a ventriloquist and this year it's a magician, so 20 minutes often become 35. Do your boys have school the next day? 9 pm seems like a late finish to me. It's 10 by the time the boys are snug -- my Wolf would be useless (and grumpy!) the next day! It may be late in the game, but you could consider throwing in a skit or some run-ons or a song or two. Just throw them in between the parts you've already got scheduled -- but don't expect to get out by 9 . . . Have fun -- the boys will love it no matter what you see as an imperfection. jd

VA, What's the debate really about? If it's about the War, then where would name-calling come into the situation? You've labeled your peers as blue, red and purple. What do these labels help all of you accomplish? Lastly, with all due respect, War is a complicated topic. How many of your peers are really informed and ready to think, and share more than opinions parrotted by adults? I was a teacher and school administrator for a long time. I know better than to disrespect Scout age people, or to minimize their ability to think and see truths about the world we share. But, I also know that most of your peers are not ready to debate War and Govt. Be patient with them. Listen and help them listen. Stick to clear information and ideas. Opinions get muddy and people hold on to them greedily and proudly. Just take a look at one of our threads on religion or homosexuality or rules or tolerance. Adults have a difficult time sharing without sneering and debating without debasing. Teenagers have had a lot less practice! BTW, if your Leaders got too involved wouldn't you be resistant to adult interference in a situation that you boys can handle by yourselves? Good Luck, jd

Well played 376

It's been suggested that an additional (earnable) award would minimize the value of nominatable awards?? I'm not sure I see that as an obvious outcome. Here's just an example, for conversation sake. The Catholic Church awards the St. George medal on a nomination basis for service to Catholic Scouts (I am not clear, nor do we need to be, about the nomination standards). Very few Scouters earn this award (a handful per Council per year?). The Church develops an "earnable" award, let's say the "St. John" (sounds like a good choice to me!) that Scouters can earn by completing a very specific list of requirements. Why would this interfere or negatively impact the St. George? In fact, I think it might make the St. George even more prestigious. I don't think the Scouter's Key or Wood Badge beads minimize the Silver Beaver. In fact, the more adult Scouters we have who are trained and aware of the Silver Beaver, the more honored and prestigious it becomes. If there are tens or hundreds of Scouters in each council that have earned the St. John, but still just a few handfuls of St. George medal wearers, I think that raises the St. George's prestige. Respectfully, ... other than the day the picture of the winners appears in the Council newsletters, how many times is the St. George thought of by all the Scouters in each council? Nominatable awards can get mentally shortshrifted because there's no sense worrying about them - either you're nominated or your not. You just go about doing your thing. Which is fine, and yes, we should all lead through example. But if that's the case, perhaps, given the example we set with nominatable wards, then logically we could argue that the boys' awards should be nominatable as well. I don't want to start a conflict over that idea - which I think has little merit - but, the point is still there. I don't think the existence of the St. George leads to more Scouts earning their REs. But, the St. John could be built to do just that - at least in part. jd

Those of you who have connections to Religious Scouting Committees and others connected to the Religious Awards, please consider and pass along an idea... Most of the Awards for Adults are by nomination. I think that if the various religious organizations developed an earnable Religious Emblem for adults it would be a great thing. If Scouters had such Emblems to work toward, I think more Scouts would work toward them, as well. Right now, I think the number of Scouts who earn religious medals is around 5%. If the REs become a bigger topic of focus for adults, they can't help but trickle down as a more important topic for the boys. The end result -- more of our boys learning and growing within their personal faiths. jd

Why are Troops allowed to custom design uniform pieces but not Packs?

Why do need different uniforms for Tigers, Wolf/Bears, and Webelos? It's better now that the Tigers are blue, but why differing neckerchiefs, slides, hats, buckles . . .What's the purpose? The benefit?

Agreed. Aside from the drama, I just meant I'd rather disagree about good things than agree about bad things. Sweeping it under the rug just allows it to continue. Eventually people find out and there's our next PR crisis. You can bet it only got to be this big of a lie because when it was little people looked the other way. Just makes ya crazy, because now each of us has to double check all our numbers and be ready to justify them and validate them because we'll all be put under the microscope as we were the ones breaking the rules. Hate to be the next person who makes and Honest mistake... jd

I was SOOOOOO ready to blame this on a couple of Dopes in Alabama, shake my head in dismay and move on. I Really didn't want to hear these other stories! Not to hide my head in the sand, nor to be critical of the tales above -- But, I'm just sitting here shaking my head. What are we doing, if as adults we can't live up to the expectations we put on the boys??????? . . . Where's Bob White??? I want to talk to him about Scouting...about helping boys grow up...about obeying rules...about learning from teachers and non-teachers... jd

Introspective or Self-Aware

Sadly, we are all diminished by this. jd

CONGRATS!!!!

(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

UNFORTUNATELY, we award Bobcats in Nov. and everything else to everybody else at the BnG. BUT... at the BnG, our CM crosses over, the CC becomes CM, and I become CC ... Hmmmmm ... I wonder which will be the first bad habit that feels the mighty axe of my wrath????????? (In a collegial, consensus building, teamwork kind of way, of course!!!!) mjengels - Everyone here is, as usual, right on the money. The Cub should receive the award as soon as possible after earning it. Check out the political realities of your Pack and then start showing people the rule books - start with the Wolf Handbook, pg. 107. The only exception I've found to the "earn it, wear it" rule is the Bobcat - which can be efforted in the Tiger handbook, but cannot be earned until the great Scout computer in the council office interprets the Cub to have entered his Wolf year (June 1). jd EagleinKY, I feel your pain, and understand your choice. I wish I had plan to bring you back to the light! Keep thinking about it.

Newbie - Try finding one adult who can act as "Activities" coordinator. In addition to Pack activities have them try to set up Den outings, as well -- based on the theme of the month or on the Achievements that each rank is trying to meet. I'd suggest it be someone other than you, because of all the obvious effort you're throwing in that direction already - get another like-minded leader into the process. Along that path, with all due respect, your post is sounding a bit frustrated. Since, I've already been there done that (rather more painfully than I care to remember), I can supportively suggest that it's better if your frustrations aren't as clear to your DLs. Sometimes, when we're neck deep in our own gung-ho, its difficult to remember that all our DLs are volunteers who are actively trying to do their best. Your quickest path to what you view as success may be finding a way to help them get there - as opposed to stressing about their lack of movement in that direction. In our Pack, Den activities are theme or Achievement based. The fun-outdoorsy stuff you're talking about are usually summer and/or Pack level events. For my Wolf Den, we meet 2 - 3 times a month in Den meetings. An outing would replace our third meeting of the month. So far, our outings have been trips to the police station, the park, the school (gym and flagpole), plus two service projects, and we're soon to be going to a recycling center and Home Depot workshop activity. Our Pack activities have been a carnival Midway, an overnighter, Rocket Derby, Cake Decorating contest, Pinewood Derby, Popcorn Sales, bulb-planting town beautification project and of course the BnG is around the corner. Our boys have also had the opportunity to attend District events: roller skating, pro hockey, pro basketball, college football, Planeterium overnighter, Disney on Ice, and the Circus. Plus of course, there's the Achievements, Belt Loops, times capsules, collections, flag ceremonies, skits, songs and everything else. My point isn't that we do SOOOO much -- it's that I think if you look carefully -- you may see much of the same going on for your boys. If not, well, then it's a list of ideas to look forward to trying out. I understand trying to do more of the outside stuff. I think we all want more of that. Along that path, my Wolves are throwing a graduation party as we turn into Bears. Planning it as Wolves will help us meet several electives and then doing it as Bears meets several Bear Achievements -- Also, we're inviting the Tiger/Wolves and helping them meet some of their new Bobcat/Wolf Achievements. The best part is it will mostly just feel like a great day at the park!!! Another way to get the boys outdoors is to use Belt Loops as Gathering activities. During August and Sept. we always Gathered with "Ultimate" (frisbee) or "Marble" belt loop activities (depending upon the weather). We got outside as much as possible, learned new skills and traditional games and had a blast as we Gathered to start our Den meetings. Good Luck!! My apologies if this has sounded more lecturous than it's intended. webposts are so hard to write/read with the intended purpose and tone. My intent, of course, is to be helpful and share my own experiences. YIS, jd (This message has been edited by johndaigler)

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