John-in-KC

Bob, This is a time for your (in order) COR, CC, or SM to pay a business office call on the Scout Executive... with his Advancement Chairman present. Ask, forthrightly and bluntly, where the "must have blue cards" is is in the National Program materials ... and be armed with the no additions, subtractions or modifications clause from ACP&P. Be blunt. COR tells Advancement guy that this will be pursued, in the name of the Chartered Partner to National, should a Scout from his unit be denied Eagle. Inform the SE and Advancement Chair that he (the COR) will sit the EBOR, for the express purpose of evaluating Council's support of the process. If you've got a weak or non-existent Chartered Partner, then this devolves to CC. Note, though, the best player for this is the COR. He can ask the tough question "Why do we license the BSA program from you if you guys aren't going to follow it?" Finally, you may need more than just the right SM/CC. You may need the right Scout... one who understands this is a baloney issue under current policy, and is willing to be the test case. You certainly don't want an aging-out youth. You also want someone who clearly should be Eagle. Now, all that said, you've given two different players, and I'm confused about who is laying down this policy. Your initial post says "the Council Advancement Committee has made it a policy", but your missive today says "making an issue about the blue cards with the Scouter from the District" ... is this a Council policy but you have unit EBORs with District Guests? I really do want to hear how this one comes out in the wash.

Merlyn... I will buy non-theist, but the faiths you mentioned have a touchstone beyond themselves. In connotation, a-theism has come to be the refusal of existence of a supreme being. That is the definition I'm using for the arguement in this thread. Lisa... understand exactly what you're saying.

OK, the question was asked. How can an atheist Scout earn a religious emblem? I'll counter: How can the parents of an atheist place a young man in a program where God/gods are a primary point? Scouting, especially in the US, but in much of the world too, bookends the values of the Oath and Law with GOD. - "to do my duty to God..." is the first promise we make. - "A Scout is... Reverent" is our last point of a proactive LAW. Now, as I've said more than once, what you believe in (Christianity, Judaism, Wiccan, Shinto, Buddhism, Hindu, tribal custom in native American...) matters not to me. THAT THE YOUNG MAN HAS A TOUCHSTONE BEYOND HIMSELF does. Please, let's talk about family faith here. This isn't about the first amendment; it's about faith, or its lack, and our existing oath and law. I'm listening for the moment... John

Our troop leveraged bicycling trips against camping MB, and also leveraged certain camping trips against cycling MB. Much depends on what the young person needs the most ... the miles or the nights.

As Beavah said, one mind, one heart at a time, through prayer and conversation. One side comment: Being pro-life does mean setting in place the various support systems (health, education, training, jobs) which enable Mom and Dad to rear the kids they sire. Even there, though, we can only spend a tax dollar once, so we must pick wisely.

RS, Please show me in current BSA policy where retention of blue cards is a requirement to earn any rank above First Class.

No, I was questioning why the Boy Scouting program, where "duty to God" and Reverence bookend the oath and law, do not have a hard requirement to earn an age-appropriate religious emblem.

Some Scoutmaster needs to ask the Council Advancement Chairman to read a few pages out of Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures. One specific thing the Scoutmaster should ask to be shown is this requirement in the BSA literature. I'd recommend a SM with an Eagle candidate coming up call the Council Advancement Chair at home. Promise the man that if the kid is failed Eagle over lack of blue cards, the SM will obtain all manner of assistance in drafting the Appeal to the National Advancement Committee for violation of National policy. I would urgently recommend a blunt statement to the SE, the Council President, and the Advancement Chair, from the COR: "Do you really want to have National overturn each EBOR on an appeal?" I do not know why your Council Advancement Committee is running off the reservation, but it's blindingly obvious they are.

I count myself firmly conservative. I agree with Ed. I think the comment which caused the thread to be closed was out-of-line.

emb, This happened to be a point I drove home with Lawrence Ray Smith, who chairs (volunteer) the National Religious Relationships Committee, during my week at PTC (just before your week there): Cubbing has, at Bear, as a program option (chose 1 of 2 achievements for God), an explicit rank requirement to earn the age appropriate faith emblem of your church. Venturing has, as a program option, at Religious Life Bronze (which is IIRC a baseline requirement for Trust), an explicit rank requirement to earn the age appropriate faith emblem of your church. What does the Boy Scouting program have? Squat. I truly hope the Religious Relationships Committee will pursue this with whatever form the National Advancement Committee takes... and that the religious faith emblem will become either part of T-2-1 or S-L-E.

It'd sure be nice to get some feedback from ScoutDad2001 on this one, on how folks decided to actually deal with it!

d6P51Mom, 1) I hope at an early date you volunteer for Scouting, become a leader, and take the training available. I think your level of love and care for the youth is fairly high, that you noticed this early on. 2) Absent some really good piece of info about this Pack, leave it!

OGE, It's not just 14. It's 14 AND COMPLETED THE EIGHTH GRADE, or 15. Trust me on that. EagleSon was 14+ right up to the end of his eighth grade year. He joined his Crew about a week after school let out, about two weeks after his 15th birthday.

As a former CC, I would not expect the SPL to bring this to the Committee for any sort of concurrence. He may report the program, but the gatekeeper is the Scoutmaster. Did you, as CC, integrate the Committee schedule so it dovtailed with the PLC annual planning meeting? Responsibility for coordination is a two-way street. It sounds to me like your Scoutmaster is the weak link. It's time for you, the COR, and he to go offsite, outside the regular meeting time, and have a quiet cup of coffee and a heart-to-heart talk. If the kids have legit reasons for movies, and have selected titles that support various program elements, that's one thing. If this is an excuse to see Terminator 10,000, that's another thing. Your SM needs to be told in no uncertain terms one of his conditions of service is being trained. Where are your COR and UC in all this??

Our Lodge has 3 inductions during Scout Camp season. Pre-Ordeal is Wednesday night after campfire. Ordeal is Thursday and Thursday night. Don't know how the issue of observant Kosher would be handled by our kitchen though...

Relationships Division gave us a coin of Waite Phillips on one side, the bull on the other, with one of Waite's famous quotes: the only things we really keep are those we give away. I bought enough of those to give to each young person who served with EagleSon as staff at our Scout Reservation Cub Family Camp.

Not quite, emb. God and Church (6-8 grades) uses a common curriculum, but there are specific requirements for the youth to contact his/her Pastor along the way. Purpose of these requirements, per more than one conversation with Debbie Hazelwood, is to inject denominational flavor into that particular program. Inject points are Lesson 3: Youth must learn the credal statements used by their church body. For most, this means the Apostles or the Nicene Creed. I know some Lutherans who require the Athanasian. I know many Baptists who do not use credal statements, but rather specific Scriptures as their statements of belief. Student must also learn history of his/her denomination as well as parish. Lesson 5: Youth must sit down with his/her Pastor and walk through the worship service, learning what happens and why. Tied into Lesson 5 is Project II, which has several tie-off points, including service in worship hours. Lesson 7: Youth must sit down with Lay Leader of the parish and discuss temporal organization to achieve Christs' mission. Officers, eligibility, composition of boards, funds management are part and parcel of this. Part of this is tied into Project III, which includes service hours to the parish outside the worship life, and general service hours to the community. For ManyHats, none of this affects you for now. The key learning point of God and Me is "I LOVE JESUS!" Next! God and Me and God and Country are both designed for very short attention spans. As emb mentioned, God and Me is done, now it's time to wait for God and Family (4th-5th grades).(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

FWIW, his mother and I held EagleSon back in K, to allow him the extra year of socialization as he grew up. Our Council had no problem re-registering him as a Cub Scout in 2001, knowing his birthday was in late May and that he'd be 11. That was 4 years before internet recharter though. I'd talk directly to your Council registrar and your DE. In general, I think keeping classmates together a good thing.

The eBay ad looks like National Boy Scout Division sponsored conferences. I got the round generic PTC patch, a Lutheran Conference patch, and a 2008 NLAS annual meeting patch, and the "Duty to God" Philmont patch.

I'm with Lisa. What your Pack is doing fails common sense. I can think of very few good reasons for a Pack to have a 4 day weekend camp. I can find plently of neat places to overnight within two hours of my front door, and I live in a major city. It's worth looking at another Pack.

Duplicate content, any Moderator encountering this may remove it. John(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

There is a really good time to say "Alcohol at the reception fails the common sense test." That would be at the initial planning meeting for the ECOH. In EagleSon's unit, the first meeting of youth and parents was with someone who'd been down the ECOH trail before. He/she gave some broad ideas on what right could look like. Heck, one of the neat things about EagleSon's ECOH day was what all the kids did. That morning, most of them were involved with their HS in a local fall festival parade. The kids in the band, EagleSon included, marched. The kids on the football team (the rest) rode the team float. The other neat thing I remember is that after the festivities, he and I went out to our Lodges' fall fellowship, had a steak dinner, and watched ceremonies and Vigil Call. Lest anyone think otherwise, alcohol at an ECOH reception? Doesn't pass the common sense test. The problem is how to manage the recalcitrant parents at this point, especially when the event and the aftermath are in their home.

What does the unit provide? It may (or may not) provide the Master of Ceremonies. It may (or may not) provide the Color Guard. It may (or may not) provide the Guest Speaker. It may (or may not) provide the facility. It may (or may not) provide the programs. Now, EagleSon had his ECOH with five other young men. The only thing the unit actually provided was the MC, their SM/Advisor (they we co-chartered in a Crew). Everything else was planned and coordinated by youth, and procured and funded by the parents. That included the Color Guard, which was made up of HS Scouting friends and one kid brother Scout. Am I arguing against speaking out? No. There, are, though, three right people to do it. COR, CC, SM. If all of them are uncomfortable, then they need to bump it to the friendly Unit Commissioner (assuming there is one) for a proper business appointment with Mom and/or Dad. They have moral means to persuade, with the fall on the sword position being witholding their support to the ceremony. We also have to remember that once the MC says "please join us for the reception", if the unit isn't providing the reception, the event is done. It's all the more done that the event is in the home. The unit has to have some skin in the game. To walk up and just wave the rules is going to get you a polite "Thank you, we'll miss you" from Mom and Dad. There are ways to deliver the message, but they need to be done such that the message is received and acted on in the way we desire. Then, after this ECOH, change the troop operating practices so that an ECOH in the home just won't be supported.

P212: I wouldn't argue agains Judge Paul. He really does know New York law. He really is a trial court judge. Stosh, most Troops I know provide support to ECOH's, but the event is planned, coordinated, and put on by the family of the Eagle. Those that provide a fully packaged ECOH tend to be adult run units. E: To be sure I said what I meant to say, it's possible to deliver a message in terms no one can misunderstand, but to do it in a civil manner. "Mr Jackson, as Bobby's Scoutmaster, I strongly recommend against serving liquor at his ECOH reception. If you choose to, the CC and I will have to reconsider our participation. If you choose to, we will have to inform Scouts and their parents." I also believe this particular message should be delivered by one of 3 people: The COR, the CC, or the SM. ScoutDad: IMO, it's time for the SM to publicly demonstrate moral courage. It comes with the title. If her credibility is at issue, bump to the COR.

hotdesk, Talk to your DE about access to Scoutreach funds. Look at low cost/no cost options for activities in your area.