anarchist

ManassasEagle, Howdy fellow Scouter from the 'Yankee' side of the Old Dominion! Depending on the amount of travel you can handle, there are many good troops in the battlefield city. Call the Bull Run District for a list or visit their web site...Hit their Roundtable (Second Tuesday night of each month, still at O-P high School -I think)and introduce yourself to the Scouters on the "Boy Scout side of things"...let them know you are looking for a troop and I'll bet you get a lot of invites...heck, one of our Scouters might even introduce themselves... "Redirecting gently" just doesn't work...until the scout families and scouts have their Eagles in hand it continues...and then some! You either need to roll up both sleeves and dive in or look elsewhere. Your boys will be your best guide...if you have more than a passing "hi how are ya" with the Boy Scout units...(please don't do just one night per troop) they will sense where the excitement is, and where the 'warmth' is... Most likely, they will gravitate to the 'normal feeder troop' for your pack (where their older friends and sibs have gone for years) It is usually close by...another plus to the parents. The program offering is best looked at in multiple years; ask to see the last couple of annual calendars....does the program appear steady, growing, expanding??? Ask to join in or camp next to them on a campout next spring/fall or at least be able to visit for the day. If they spend a great deal of time doing merit badges (look at the PLC meeting Plans) you might be in a mill. Ask the Scout Master(s) to send a patrol to do skills classes or demonstrations for your pack or den...ask for permission to visit the troop several times next year and go as observers not participants. Move around area to area during the meeting ....see what's going on, don't ask to be entertained... tell the SM upfront you want to scope it out and you might only be there for half the meeting...that said your guys need to be on their best behavior and watch whats going on...it can be very enlightening... AND BE SURE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE WEBELOS WOODSMOKE WEEKEND! good hunting anarchist

Hunt nailed this one on the head.... Our CO (church) had problem with the premise of "magic' so we asked the boys not too...but too often the boys gamble (ie losing cards to each other and then not handling the loss 'well') better let them play ultimate or regular deck of cards during "down time"(best is have something 'outdoorsy' for them to do!

Interesting question...but I wonder if it is relavent to scouting??? since we do not select the SPL does it matter what we want in an SPL??? A more revealing question would what do we do when a less than perfect SPL is handed to the SM and troop? and badgerface the boys in a troop end up deciding among those willing or wanting to do it...not necessarily the best... I would like for the boys to be able to view 'desire to serve', organizational and outdoors skills through adult eyes... but hey, what do we know...Last boy I thought was a 'winner' (demonstrated maturity, ability, friendliness and organizational skills), was at best a mediocre SPL...perhaps 'low average' but the expectations had been soooo high... but the boy did not follow through on anything that did not have a direct benefit to him. (or that the SM was not riding his hip pocket the entire time). I have seen an interesting trend that maybe others can verify...our best troop guides seem to be the better SPL later in their scout careers...and a good Summer Camp Staff experience seems to bode well also...any thoughts?

hi ho dutch ovens! Stay with the patrol method whenever you can...four boys can do it easily and even three can get by...Our troop years ago did a bunch of Troop mess hall cooking...still have two LARGE WOODEN "KITCHENS"- 'bout three times the size of a ptrol kitchen...adults no use them.... occaisionally our SPL has been known to 'combine' patrols temporarily to reach his idea of 'critical mass' for certain campouts...but doing so breaks down the patrol identity (I believe that was one of your pluses, though wasn't our experience) and then the boys have fewer opportunities to shine on their own... (If the PL and APL can't make it a junior scout 'has to step up to the plate!) economic savings and efficency are highly over-rated! Let them donate the leftover mustard to one of the families or save it in someones 'second fridge' if available...at least until it turns green! Finally, three boys can eat nicely on $30.00 with some thought and planning! Maximize your program opportunities ...don't worry about a extra cookset or three! even the smallest budget can be made to creatively stretch...a 'cook set' could be Yard sale pots and pans...(you can fill a truck in one weekend for $20.00) and cut the handles off (use pot grippers) and they can even nest "a bit"...Troop wide cooking has no benefits or economies for this troop!

I Agree with Semper.... time and experience will tell...never prejudge how a scouts experience will turn out and never fall into the trap of self-fulfilling prophecy. Many times it has been shown that teachers (scout leaders?) when told a particular group of kids are 'strong' (or weak) end up with results matching their expectation...even when the 'strong' kids were average or even weak... perhaps this 'free spirit' will 'dig' being in a boy led operation...give it time! heck, I hate rules...but even an ol' anarchist can make some exceptions....

SemperParatus... leave me out of this! meamemg...Don't let it go...use it. That boy may or may not find his way in scouting (and life)... but he did give you a lesson to use for boys in the future! Scout Master Minute or just instructional for the boys you meet along the scouting trail... most likely he was just being a boy...mouthing off 'cause he was embarrassed buy being 'caught'...that part you can let go of...

hello goodbye????post goes ????

smtroop445, now thats more information.... these your oldest boys by any chance??? As SM I would have a meeting with all the boys, not just the green bars, either give yourself a full half hour before the regular meeting or on a different day altogether...you need lots of time to shake this cat out... I would ask them to tell you what went on, in their words, making no comments just asking questions to 'pull the whole story out'... assumming they did screw up I would sit there just looking at them for a long few minutes just to see who breaks the silence...hopefully they will all be uncomfortable by this time. Ask them to show you in the Scout oath or Law where they find being disrespectful, unhelpful, unkind, etc. I would ask them what needs to be done to make it up to the troop and to the ASM...who, after all, was there to help them... Then I would give them some kind of duty, service patrol for the next month or so...k-p duty for the new scouts on the next two campouts...something... and here is the kicker and I know it will create howls from some of the brethren...I would inform this patrol in writing that a future 'repeat' will result in a dismantling of the patrol. They will be dispersed to the other patrols... Hate to say it but in a few rare occaisions, a patrol can become disfunctional...I have seen it twice. A certain 'mix' of just the right boys and all they want to do is be disruptive...they seem to have fun but they are damaging to the troop and to their own progress...we broke a group of these guys up and they went on to become troop leaders...two are currently patrol leaders and two are now troop guides...all good kids but for some reason... together... they just couldn't be good scouts. I would also let them know that the next 'refusal of any reasonable request' by an adult leader will get their little butts hustled home from the troop activity...We have called parents from summer camp to come get junior,(and a four hour ride home is no fun....) In this case some form of 'flogging' seems appropriate...see what they suggest.

Acco40 G2SS says fires not stoves...as in girl scout water for starting fires...most of the BSA back packing literature has pictures of the coleman peak 1 (or two) stoves which are white gas....BSA DOES NOT PROHIBIT WHITE GAS USE. I have five white gas / multi fuel stoves and I have to say, you couldn't get me to buy a propane stove... Our troop uses 8 propane stoves and 20 gal. canisters and does mostly car camping...they take little 1 pound canisters on canoe trips or rely on charcoal... and they have one old coleman white gas back-packing stove. For peace of mind the propane stoves are winners around boys but if one 'breaks down' on a camp...it is dead for the weekend, they are not as field repairable as the white gas stoves... and if you don't read the box you end up with a set of 8,000 BTU instead of 10,000 BTU burners...all propane stoves are not equal... TWOCUBDAD, A question though...why are you looking to replace them? I have three two burners ... the newest one is 20 years old oldest is 35 years old....just not sexy enough???? foto...drink less coffee and your hands won't shake so much and you will spill less fuel! Like I tell my son be patient and don't try to fill the darn thing to the top! (won't pressurize if you do)

gosh, sounds like an ASM got duct taped to his cot!?! were the kids loud? were the kids not washing behind their ears? were they forgetting to turn their underwear inside out on odd numbered days? Did they forget to brush their teeth? did they eat too many candy bars? what was the crime? Does the ASM want them to be shot or will a simple flogging do? Sorry to be flip but without knowing what the monsters did,its hard to address what should be done. However, sort a like ..ART...don't KNOW how to describe it but I know it when I see it...bad behavior should not be routine. I am worried when you say 'expectations of behavior hadn't been reinforced in quite some time..." They are Boy Scouts not wild indians (sorry grandfather) and if the behavior tarnishes the image of scouting and is not in keeping with the Oath and the Law steps should be taken...what happened?...(hint sometimes kids are stupid?)

Not knowing where you are is tough to know what organizations are around... If you just need something for data spread sheets, light word prcessing etc. you could contact any large company and ask for assistance ( what is your CO? Tax exempt?). Local police sometimes have systems 'recovered' but not claimed that a local family can pick up in a police sale for next to nothing and donate to the CO or just 'lend' it to the Pack... Check with local computer stores for trade ins...who knows...let the whole community know what you need...never hurts to ask...

I'm with Cajuncody. call around find a "hero"...better to relocate for a night than let it screw up the plans... good luck!

Hi! I'll just jump in here with my boat load of negativity! I am one of the tough nuts on this topic not one of the feel gooders... I firmly feel that each achievement, activity or rank 'sign-of' is just that... an 'each'! I find something inherently wrong with letting boys take two 'credits' for one effort...Is it wrong? Probably not...but a better question would be ...is it right? It is 'double dipping'... sorta like getting paid twice for doing one job. If our program is about character and doing right (rather than positive strokes and feeling good about ourselves) What is the harm in saying TWO AWARDS = TWO PROJECTS???? Expediency? Efficiency? Just what do we want the boys to learn here? I know it is hard to find time, it is hard to get the boys out for two projects with all the other things in their lives...but isn't that the point of all this??? just muddying the water some...

Sibs, ah yes...I would recommend slow roasting over apple wood with a dash of pepper sauce...er sorry dreaming here.... First, a simple hand out to parents...with a schedule of snack rotations...each family should provide the sncks in turn...unless you collect dues/money for snacks...then sibs families need to 'belly up to the bar' and pay for sib snack...(I always had a 'set' of snacks and fruit juice in the truck for the inevitable 'we forgot' excuse...but then the 'we forgotters' were told to do it next week and restock my truck emergency box. Mostly it worked. Disruptive sibs were not a problem... Most of my parents stayed and chatted over in the corner...my den rule was this: Wednesday night was a cub scout den meeting... not a play date ...Parents were to bring materials for the sibs or ask me to provide materials and repay my 'den fund'...one warning for noise or disruption was acceptable but a second time- the parent and sib could wait in the car...I guess I had great parents 'cause I only had to do that once in five years...drew a complaint to the CM but he told 'mommie dearest' it was my den and she could 'shop' for another pack if the rules didn't work for her. JUST REMEMBER BSA does not mean Baby Sitters of America! Sibs can not be allowed to be a drain or a distraction...it is just not fair...firm hand, firm requirements result in quality experience for the cubs... one side note here, as my boys became Webelos many had brothers only a year or two younger...In many of these cases the younger boy was a wolf or a bear and I did let them sit in on my meetings...in a couple of cases they turned out to be stronger Boy Scouts than their older brothers...they had two den meeting a week to learn things! hope it helps!

MIscouter, Great to hear it went well! Now that you have made contact with a group of Webelos 1s keep it up. Send a couple of scouts to help the DL during den meetings occaisionally(with his/her ok). Heck provide them a Den Chief. Invite them to observe one of your camps (day visit). Have a scout skills training day for them...When they are ready have them camp along side your unit ...make them comfortable with scouting and your boys...'LOCK THEM INTO THE TROOP'. We hear lots of 'woe is me' tails about Webelos retention...this is the best thing you can do to keep those boys in scouting! good luck!

Sometimes we try to make things too easy, too neat, too efficent...and forget that we all learn by thinking 'on the problem' not having it spoon fed to us. Socrates liked to answer questions with questions...and gently guide the student into thinking about the problem at hand... And yes, there are going to be things we just have to tell the boys 'cause they have never experienced it before...but especially when it come to eating they know more than even they 'know' they do...by talking and walking them through they end up 'owning' the problem and the solution! And think of your pride when a boy hands you a 'menu planning form' that he discovered and/or improved...'all by himself' (with your guidance. of course!). If you really think about it, most of us learn better by kicking around a problem in a group setting. We evaluate what others say...(johnie eats only one egg at breakfast Matt wants four, Chris and Dan think their Mom usually gives them two eggs for breakfast...hey wait a minute if we average two eggs per boy...) You get to see the 'light' go on in their heads! The first couple of times our NSPs go shopping ( and we do make them shop as a patrol for a while) many of the Moms want to 'do it' for the boys. Mom feels the boys don't know how to blow through the grocery store like a Super Shopper and are wasting time...but if Mom does it... the Scouts never will learn... It is not easy, or pretty and it sure isn't fast but within reason try not to short change by short circuiting. I have an exercise I try to get parents to run through with the boys...I make up two versions of the same menu (goofy patrol is doing scrambled eggs - what do they show on their plan - bunch of eggs/ eagle patrol wants mountain man breakfast so-16 eggs, 1 pound of sausage, pound of fryed potatos, one large onion, pound of grated cheese, pound of butter for cooking etc, hot peppers and texas pete sauce, salt, pepper etc.) template , not a complete list but a place to start...We do this for a whole weekend meals plan. The last page of this 'program' is a shopping list we want Mom, Dad and 'Junior' to do this as a family project... We ask the parents go through the 'menu' with the boys at home right after cross-over and before our first shake down campout, and we explain that we would like them to go through the local paper and 'shop' the list so junior starts to think about feeding eight boys...Most of our parents think it is a great place to start. GOOD SCOUTING AND MAY A FULL PLATE ALWAYS BE YOURS!

Back packing is ok too, but I bet if you tested them, 80% would not be able to "run the knot boards"...Most boys do not learn their knots in one or two or three sessions....They place the lesson in short-term memory and after ten minutes of x-Box they have replaced that memory with video garbage... If you get a chance make a couple of games for them to test this...First, get a small dowel and suspend the required lengths of rope (for number of knots being taught)...ask each boy to identify the knots. Keep score. Second is to make knot boards...small plaques with four holes drilled ...(two on top side by side, and two on bottom). Thread two pieces of rope through the holes; top rope you tie the 'demo' knot, in the middle of the board write/tape card with name of knot. Bottom piece of rope is for them to copy the knot...time them...make it a game with a piece of jerky or candy as a prize! ....that is, if they can tie (remember)the knots to begin with... Teaching is usually an on going activity... repetition ...repetition...repetition...but make all lessons (in this or any other topic fun) ... One more thing VAordeal...I just (MOnday night) sat on a Board of Review for young scout (for his second class)... When I asked what his troop (youth leaders) could do better to help him advance...he answered "more hands on classes, not just telling us things". So often when we teach we fall into the 'lecture and show' trap! Try to always include a participation aspect to your teaching...a 'hands on do it yourself' segment. He had just come from two classes on pioneering skills...In the first, a life scout had 'lectured' about which lashings to use for a tower or bridge project and in the second class (camp gadgets) the star scout let them try to do it themselves while he demonstrated the lashings...hands on building! And our young second (new) class scout knew which lesson was better! Try to learn from this... If you choose to teach back-packing; let the Webelos pack your bag, let them touch and inspect the gear, have them roll or stuff a sleeping bag into the stuff sack. Let them do it not watch it being done! Have them 'heft' the full pack up on their own backs for a few minutes. Have a mis-packed backpack (with the weight in the wrong place) so they can feel the difference...do it right! Make it fun!

in our area 55 gallon bag of crushed cans nets about $2.00 after paying for a heavy duty bag...not much for a lot of effort. If you want to do this contact local schools and see if they would be willing to let you set up a can/bottle 'can' in their cafeteria and teacher's lounge...be sure to pick up cans as need 'requires' or they will end cooperation fast. Frankly, I'd rather sell donuts, have a dinner or pancake breakfast or even write a check than try to do can drives/bottle/paper...good spaghetti dinner can raise $500 dollars with just a few signs, support from your CO AND having the boys pre-sell computer printed dinner tickets ...a few weeks before the dinner... lots of work but sure-fire return (just avoid winter time dinner...snow storm can cripple the effort....)

check archives here for lots of pack camping ideas. some suggestions: for first camp- stay away from 'in water' activities like wading, swimming and boating...safety afloat and safe swim may overpower you...better stick to basics for first time... Fishing is great but many kids loose interest five minutes in unless they are fighting blue marlin two minutes after casting their leftover hotdog into the water. Perhaps a dry land casting competion with spin cast outfits, rubber casting plugs and targets, for the yoounger kids!?! I would recommend that if you are doing Friday and Saturday... Make Saturday the over nighter for the "one nighters" they have more time to set up (less frustration) and for first-timers who are late...plenty of time to 'discover' their tent and run out for the oft times -'forgotten' stuff. Just make it early Saturday check in 7-730 AM so the lack of bodies does kill the program... Let the hardier members set camp Friday and after a few games sit around a quiet campfire feeling more ever so more adventurous (and slightly smug)! plan with different age groups in mind...a hike, things for the older boys and arts/crafts for the younger boys (and sibs?). But do not "over" do it. Plan some 'do your own thing time'. 'Rope' some Local Boys Scouts to help you out...especially with your FIRST CAMPFIRE...they can show your parents what fun is all about! (do the 'muffin man' to get the parents involved)! good luck and great camping!

VAordeal, Y not KNOTS? one of the best ways to learn is to have to teach! Just turned in the paperwork for a scout who two years ago wanted to help me with a new scout patrol shakedown campout...wanted to teach anything but cooking and KNOTS...so I gave him the...KNOT classs! Oh, by the way, did I mention the paperwork was his Eagle package?! don't run from difficulty, embrace it, it makes us stronger and wiser...

Good Gosh ps56k, I have never seen a really detailed form...most cooks are not really big on specifics (ie a dash of this a bit of that) let THEM do it THEMselves...mMke it a learning experience for your scouts. Most of THEM are better with computeres than you are. Let THEM check web sites and let THEM generate the form. 'Dutch oven meals' on most search engines will generate days of reading including detailed dutch oven basics (like 24 briquets...not 20 lbs of charcoal) They can start with the cooking section of the Handbook and then go to the Cooking merit badge book and then on to glory... The best you can do for them is set them down with an older scout....ask them to plan three meals...favorite Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner. have the Older scout lead them through a step by step of prep and cooking (ie Fried eggs...how many eggs per scout? what kind of pot are you going to fry them in? what goes into the pot to make it easy to cook and clean {three pounds of bacon fat)...all the way through to clean up...by thinking their way through they will learn more, and faster than having a form to fill out...sometimes forms lead to 'mechanization' but not to knowledge. we like to sit our NSPs down with a sale flyer from the Sunday paper to plan meals....and watch the lights come on.

We hit the Jackpot with two crew assignements!-Out Island Adventure! Wish I was going! My youngest LOVED it...This kid (who appears to be on a 'natural narcotic' most of the time- HE IS REAL laid back!) was so jazzed by Sea Base Last year it took two weeks for him to 'come down'...by far his best BSA adventure yet! Now he doesn't want to go to 'regular' summer camp.

East coast = Del Mar Va Council camps Henson and Camp Rodney...Both camps... our boys loved! Rodney was the first camp (for which)I ever heard our boys making plans to return to, before even leaving for home...in my book, an impressive endorsement! Florida Seabase is another winner for older boys.

We beat this horse every few months to no avail... Almost never wear BSA pants to meetings or camps...have some nice BDUs and 'wife who makes all this possible' found some nice BDU shorts at a yard sale...it makes being outdoors comfortable and practical (pockets and room). Have some 'O.D.' nylon Columbia zip-offs for canoe trips. Sorta hate having money tied up in BSA 'pant' but CoH and district meetings makes it tolerable... Hope one of these days we will get a good pant design out of Texas...but not holding my breath. good griping with you. anarchist

Depends on which program you do at Philmont... Vs. BWCA? - major difference would be learning to portage...carrying a canoe is different than carrying a pack..(and most portage packs are not the same as what you use for hiking/camping. Philmont- hills...tall, tall, hills...Hiking in Mountains is not flat land hiking...FIND SOME TALL HILLS AND PRACTICE HARD... Some crews have guys who never get out of Base camp due to altitude sickness...find hills...make sure your adults work hard with you...if they are going...good luck it will be a memory you will carry for life!