fred8033

You're in a hard situation. It would drive me crazy to have three former SMs on the committee and to repeatedly hear they did it differently in the past. I'd hope they'd wish you the best and support you as you move to more mainstream practices such as electing the SPL. Heck, that's how it's designed and documented!!! But I get concerned when you write the previous SMs say you are wasting your time with roundtable and being brainwashed. My partially informed opinion is that you have many attitudes and practices to change. Your going to be very frustrated for a good amount of time. Having been in your position, I'd suggest changing to a unit that's closer to what you want. Either help start a unit (per your previous email) or switch to one that is closer to what you expect. Heck, perhaps you can bring your one son's friends with him. To be honest, I've never heard of a troop that assigns SPL based on who's oldest.

Unit commissioners and unicorns. Two things I've never seen. Don't believe anymore that they can possibly exist.

I've seen lots and lots of adults with ebook readers. Heck, many sit in camp chairs with ebook readers. I view it no differently than if they were to sit down with a paperback. Only difference is cost. I don't really have an issue with scouts using them. We'd need to find a different sign-off evidence path. Plus, the big thing is that kids are rough on things. We don't ban cell phones. We just give parents our cell phone numbers and ask that they don't call us if their son chooses to bring a phone and it gets lost, drowned, stepped on, rained on or just broken when a bag is thrown or dropped. Most parents have the phones left at home. Kids are rough on things. I'd expect an e-book reader to not last a year in a scout's hand on camp outs.

Oak Tree - Agree with your quotes and responses. What seems to be okay in the case quoted as the IRS overlooking is that the money was never the unit's money. Whereas allocating money earned at a unit fundraiser to individuals is not acceptable. But if the scout sold cookie dough or popcorn, his sales can be treated as his sales. I'd really like to know if this is "overlooked" or if there is an aspect of the law making it okay. To be honest, I love tax law stuff. I wish I had more time to dig into it.

I think this point is key to justifying fundraisers going into scout accounts. **** Does anyone have more information on this aspect? **** "However, the IRS still will overlook individual fundraisers (i.e., each girl selling cookie dough) in which the girl keeps her own money earned. This distinction between types of fundraisers may seem obscure, but the endeavors involving participation by the group and the amount of money raised, as opposed to one individual at a time, seem to be the deciding factors." ...

Twocubdad is adding to the requirement. Video please. Seriously though, the book is not required. Same as your membership in a troop is optional too. If a troop says that's how their troop tracks and administers advancement, it's part of membership in the troop. You can always find another troop. Though it would be difficult to find a troop that didn't use the scoutbook. I must admit that I'd be gun-shy to use anything else. Ya the adults use TroopMaster and the adults use on-line software. But that's for the adults to coordinate the group. That's the bureaucracy part. The key is that the scout is responsible for his own advancement. Not the adult scouters. So he needs a clean record so he can prove what he did and, more importantly, know what he needs to do to advance. You can't get a better way to track it then the BSHB. Heck, each requirement includes a page number discussing and documenting the requirement. Ya gotta like that. IMHO, the BSHB sets the bar pretty high to use something else. I also favor the comment (though not wording) of twocubdad. If your going to fight or protest using the BSHB to track advancement, ya got other issues beyond scouting.

The avalanche has already begun. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. --Kosh Love that show though I'm sad the Vorlons turned into bad guys.

Oak Tree: I should mention that I'm close to full agreement with what you wrote. I just don't think it's a 100% definitive. It's a case by case thing. There is room to argue, wiggle and perhaps options. Also note that most every example presented is written within "COULD", not a definitive "would". Here's an okay summary I had found. Plus a great quote: "... frequently results in illegal private benefit. However, the IRS has stopped short of strictly prohibiting IFAs." That's the issue. There is some room to argue you can do scout accounts. It's a thing of interpretting insubstatial, benefit, necessary, and many other words. http://www.parentbooster.org/Default.aspx?pageId=521265 ================================ In my previous message, I provided my reasoning. Here's my reasoning to agree with you. - 2011-06-27 IRS memo - http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/booster_club_field_directive_6-27.pdf (requiring volunteering or charging more for not doing it is private benefit) - 2008-06-11 All Experts web page - http://en.allexperts.com/q/Nonprofit-Law-2266/2008/6/credit-hours-worked.htm - 2001 EO CPE http://www.boosterrules.sebengriffin.com/docs/eotopich01.pdf Here's a few cases of big penalties. Three penalties, $61,000, $30,000 and $9,000. Booster clubs raised $6.8 million from 2000 to 2005. WOW !!!! - 2008-12-16 Kentucky - http://www.kentucky.com/2008/12/16/628251/audits-trouble-bryan-station-high.html - 2008-08-10 Kentucky - http://www.kentucky.com/2008/08/10/485490/fund-raising-takes-a-hit.html - 2009-01-14 Follow-up http://homeschoolcpa.com/update-on-the-irs-and-booster-club-fundraising/ Another way to avoid IRS audits, don't have millions going thru your checking accounts. ================================ Beavah's discussion of earning PackToken's is interesting. I could see benefit to it. Just don't allow paying $$$$ as an alternative. Waive the tokens in justifiable cases ... fine. BUT don't let families buy their way out. If you do that, the pack tokens become a way to avoid a financial cost. That's the one that's clear cut illegal. Plus now you open the pack up to questions of employment relationships and taxes, etc. ================================ I'm just saying this is not a 100% clear cut.

It's not that clear cut. I'm not saying your wrong. I'm not saying your giving bad advice. Your giving the play-it-safe answer which is always a good choice. I'm just saying it's not 100% clear. The following 2002 IRS article explains my reasoning. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/02-0041.pdf I had read the 1993 article you quoted. That same 1993 document you quote also says: "As indicated in GCM 39862, the inurement proscription is aimed at preventing dividend-like distributions of charitable assets or expenditures to benefit a private interest" The 1993 article example has a gymnastics booster club. But there are significant differences between the scouters and the example booster club "A". ---- Booster club "A" supervisory board included gym X owners (i.e. insiders) who directly financially benefit (i.e. dividend) ---- Booster club "A" purchased equipment that was installed at gym X giving the owners commercial benefit. ---- Booster club "A" gymnastics were 100% taught by gym X paid staff. ---- Booster club "A" did not work work with the broader class of gymnasts. They worked with gymnasts training at for-profit gym X. The article hits at organizations that want tax exempt status, but were created more for the profit of those involved than for a public good. A good number of the IRS articles talk about physician partnerships that go after non-profit status. That's why I think this is all clear as mud. Scout groups are created for strong public good and don't have the direct dividend type of ownership or of fundraising. There is no cash draw and the money pays for that which is directly part of the public good. As for scout accounts, the 2002 IRS article raises key points. A few more key parts are these - Popcorn sales have a 1/3 of sales go to the local councils and benefits the larger scout population. Without scouts earning credit, many scouts wouldn't sell. That would directly affect money available to pay for camps. - The funds spent directly hit at the public benefit. Educational Preventing delinquency. Public good. It is also a personal benedit, but it greatly benefits the public. Many service hours donated. Better strong citizens. I wish I could find a 2011 or 2012 article. Your advice is good. I'm just saying it's not 100% clear and very very much depends on the nuances of the specific situation.

Gunny2862 - Nice comments. Beavah wrote "For da Citizenship badge, the purpose of the service is to help 'em see how a particular organization contributes to their local community, and a bit of how organizations like that rely on folks in the community steppin' up as volunteers. The point is to build connections to their community, eh? And understandin'. Not to tick off 8 hours with their head down not payin' a lick of attention or cross-countin' hours unrelated to da purpose of the badge." That's exactly the view the Citz of Community MB counselor. That's what he should communicate. That's how he should evaluate the requirement. Nice work.

Brewmeister wrote: "I also predict that, sooner or later, the BSA is going to say it's ok to be untrustworthy, disloyal, unhelpful, unfriendly, discourteous, unkind, disobedient, surly, unthrifty, cowardly, unclean, and irreverent as well." Democrats ???

Nights of camping - Also if you define the activity as having ## number of nights of camping, you can over-ride that for individual scouts. Very necesasry if the scout did not stay both nights. ScoutNet - We've been using this continually lately. We treat that as the master. Our TroopMaster is just for the lower details. i.e. who was on what camp out. what activities did we do. etc.

basementdweller: ".I was look for a single sheet summary for a scout...." Troopmaster -> Reports -> Awards/Advancement ->Individual History. - Get used to TroopMaster paging feature for multiple pages. It looks underwhelming if you don't page between pages. - Play around with the options. I like to include everything and ALSO CHECK "Omit details on completed ranks". That gets really long. Troopmaster is a piece of software that we've used for years. Hasn't changed at all except minor features. I would love for us to switch to something else. But I have not found a good option worth the work of changing.

bnelon44 - I probably was unclear. If the scout is 2nd class (or what ever class) and working on the MB, fine. I'm just saying that the MB counselor should pay attention to the words in the MB requirement as written. The troop pays attention to the advancement requirements as written. If the service matches the requirements, I'm okay with it. If anything, it's a coordination issue the scout needs to take care of solving. Describing it as "double dipping" or "gaming the system" is just poor sportsmanship.

I just re-read the MB requirement. It says "While working on this merit badge, volunteer at least eight hours of your time for the organization." That puts a boundary saying you can't count hours before you started working on the MB. Other MBs fall into the basic GTA rule stating that you can't credit work done before becoming a Boy Scout. ... IMHO, this comes down to the MB counselor is responsible for the MB. The scoutmaster and unit are responsible for rank. The MB counselor is not responsible for rank advancement and the scoutmaster/unit is not responsible for MB requirements. If the MB counselor believes the scout has met the requirements, it's a done deal. The MB counselor is NOT responsible for rank advancement and NOT responsible to check if "double dipping" has occurred. That's just not his responsibility. Similarly, the scoutmaster (or his designated authorized signer) is responsible for rank advancement. Other than consulting on the choice of the MB counselor, the SM is NOT responsible for how individual MB requirements are completed. If he, or designee, approves a requirement, it's done. MB are NOT a unit responsibility. MB counselors are registered with the council/district. MB counselor is not a unit position. Troops are completely off base when they start doing things such as tracking individual MB requirement details ... OR ... allocating individual units of work to rank OR MB advancement. It's just not their job. Soapbox... This happens when people start thinking the program is too easy on the scouts. Or that scouts are gaming the system. That's just bad attitude. The program is the program and the requirements are what they are. We don't need to find a way to make them more difficult. Just do a good job on each requirement and do a good job supporting the scout. The "double dipping" debate is just noise.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Our "approval" is more like .... SCOUT: Scoutmaster ###, I'm going to work on ###### this weekend. Okay? SCOUTMASTER: Sounds great. Look forward to hearing about it.

Focusing on no double dipping is just noise. I agree with previous comment that most scouts have performed service many times over. I know that if I say "There's no explicit rule saying you can't count the same service for both rank and the merit badge", someone will respond that of course not every single possible rule combination is documented. Or that it should be obvious you can't do both. Or why have such low standards. Or .... one of many other dozen rules .... But if we apply the no double dipping rule, it should be done consistently. ---- Camping nights used for both first class rank and the camping merit badge. ---- Cooking meals used for both rank and the Cooking merit badge. ---- Hiking for both first class rank and the Hiking merit badge. ---- Interviewing a community leader for both first class rank and citizen of the community. ---- Lashings for first class rank and pioneering. The list can go on and on. Arguing for "no double dipping" is the first step to get ready to track many requirements and which was already spent to complete a requirement. ... A key issue is that scouting focuses on experiences. You earn the fishing merit badge by catching fish. Not by trying to catch fish. But on the other side, if while a Boy Scout you already caught the fish, you completed the requirement. You've been there. Done that. I view it the same as the service requirement. You did the quantity asked for. So what if it was counted elsewhere too. Do we start auditing school and church too? ... IMHO, focus on that we do service because we are scouts and we value helping others. It's part of who we are. If the hours look at all reasonable to meet the requirement in front of you at the time, credit it and move on. Heck, there is no BSA published guidance saying you can't. If anything, we have the option, why not support the scout.

TAX IMPLICATIONS - I've read on this repeatedly. Generally, the whole topic is clear as mud. As with many legal issues, it is an argument of nuances. How much is the private benefit of scout accounts necessary to achieve the public good of the exempt status? http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/02-0041.pdf Gosh, we had eight eagles who did a total of 2400 hours of community service for their projects. Plus we do service projects at camp (i.e. for a non-profit). We help in the community thru food shelters and local service. We help keep kids from being delinquent. Plus selling grows character and confidence. Good arguements for individual accounts and keeping exempt status. But if the scout has $10,000 in his individual account and buys tickets to the next three world jamborees with first class airplane tickets, that's a strong arguement toward personal benefit and not tax exempt. I wish everyone the best deciding. Generally though, the IRS doesn't go after scout groups. PACK Question #1 - We don't have scout accounts. If scouts want to go to BSA/council/district run camps, the parents pay. For everything else, the pack pays ALL. advancements. pack family overnights. b&g. pinewood derby. everything. The pack spends $135 to $165 per scout. We try to make all "pack" (not den) activities be family oriented (parent, child, siblings). Question #2 - Percent? Zero. Question #3 - Our dues are minimal. We want people involved. If we don't get successful fundraising, we scale down the program. Question #4 - Only push back we find is from parents who know Boy Scouts. They want a scout account to bring forward. TROOP Question #1 - Scouts pay fees for each camping event and activity. Troop pays for advancements, banquets, etc. Question #2 - Goal is 100% of profit. Question #3 - Budget. We find the troop has lower overhead than the pack. About $75 per scout at most. Question #4 - Pushback? If you like or tolerate the other person, invite them to join the committee. If you don't, then don't sweat it. If they push harder, give them the list of other local scouting units.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I think the viewpoint is wrong on this. It's absolutely great if the pack can choose, prepare and switch den leaders. But, from my experience, that's rare. It's just too hard to find spare leaders who are just waiting for new responsibilities. Instead, view it as you just got a group of new scouts joining as Tigers. They have parents. One of the parents needs to step forward. If none of the parents step forward, you don't have any new Tigers. Hand them back their applications and thank them for inquiring into the pack. Sort of like the youngest leagues of sports. Parents sign up their kids for baseball and soccer in 1st grade. They are put in groups. One of parents signs up as the coach. If none of the parents will sign up as coach, they don't have a team. Same for existing dens. View it as the parents in the den provide the leader. If the current den leader wants out, then the parents in the den need to choose a new leader. If they don't, then the den foldes. Same with accepting new scouts. It's the den leaders choice whether to grow the den. I've only met one den leader who said no to new scouts. But that's their choice. Personally, I'm okay with this. If the entire set of new adults won't help, then perhaps the pack shouldn't take on the extra work of more scouts.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Slusher - Quick clarifications. - He was BSA employed in Germany. I don't see any record he was employed by BSA in US. - Could not bring 1972 issues to local USA police attention as it was not in the USA. - The 1972 case was discussed with the scout parents. The parents didn't contact the police either. - He was registered in a different troop then his original troop when he returned. That troop was probably not notified about him. - Later he was unregistered / removed in early 1976. Police arrested him in 1977. Given how old paper records were handled, I could see issues like this happening. But it sounds like the council / BSA did a good faith effort to get rid of him.

... Mind you all the events surrounding this discussion are sad and creepy.... I am fairly pleasantly surprised with the detail in the files and the effort to handle. It's still creepy stuff, but it does look like BSA was trying to do something. Not always making the best decisions, but clearly making the effort. I was also pleasantly surprised at the timeline included in the documents. http://documents.latimes.com/boy-scouts-youth-protection-timeline/

Gotta admit.... I felt a slight thrill hearing we have a new insignia guide.... I need to get a life. Then ... I started looking for the PDF. At the scouting.org web site I found the following: "A printed copy of this essential reference may be purchased online at http://www.scoutstuff.org or through your local council Scout shop." Why can't documents like this be available? Why do we have to purchase them? Why re-write extracts as a series of web pages that are often out of date compared to the official published document. Just make the PDF version available online. Or save the document as a HTML document.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Another discussion point. http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2012/08/03/task-force-proposes-moving-to-one-oath-and-law-for-all-programs/comment-page-2/#comment-11017

Beavah wrote: "Average troop size nation-wide accordin' to JTE materials is 14 boys or so. " Yeah, I just don't believe that number. In retail sales, you compare store sales on existing stores and excluding stores that are new or closing down. I think that should also be applied to troop size. Exclude troops that are essentially dead or dying. Exclude troops that are less than three years old. It would be easy to exclude new troops. It would only be possible to exclude dead or dying troops by waiting a few years and then looking backward. ... Part of being a healthy troop is recruiting and teaching new scouts. With a troop of five to seven scouts, your only getting one or two scouts per year. IMHO, that's just not sustainable. With a troop of 14, your getting two or three scouts per year. More sustainable, but difficult. Small troops are fun when your growing them. But small troops that are not interested in growing are probably not really focused on being a traditional Boy Scout troop. Too susceptible to being just like a Cub Scout den. Too susceptible to dying out as scouts age out.

twocubdad wrote: "But given the relationship between the troop and pack, for the Webelos to pretend they then have to give every other troop in town an even shot offends my sense of loyalty. " I fully agree. It also helps from another direction. Right now, families flock to the most successful troop. In our town, the most successful troop will get 20+ new webelos. And then lose 50% of them in the next year. I'd rather see the pack/troop linkage stronger such that there is a continual set of new families that feed into each unit to help refresh it and make it a good program. Right now, with the flocking to the most popular troop it can be running away from what your charter org has done for your for four or five years. I fully believe there should be an assumption that you continue thru the aligned troop. BUT that you can switch if you want to switch. ... I originally thought troop shopping was good for everyone. I don't think that's true anymore. I think it's fine to see how different troops work. I think it's fine to switch if you want. But it should be assumed you follow in the units from your charter org. ... I agree it's a loyalty thing. You dance with the partner who brought you. If the partner is a jerk, fine ... ditch'em. But ya don't show up at the dance and then start shopping for the best dance partner.