fred8033

Very well written and well reasoned. I doubt complete death. A BSA only would be ugly. Many councils would be forced into bankruptcy. I'm thinking states like CA and NY that have many cases under re-opened SOLs. Others will survive because they don't have the deep pockets or the SOLs are not open or not enough cases. Many will be dropped because the cash will not be there to be an incentive to law firms. I doubt BSA death because many councils would survive. Some are under SOL closed states. Some don't have the cases. Some don't have the wealth. My view is the size of this bankruptcy case has perverted the law, the legal process and basic justice. Of course, I want victims to get restitution, but I'm not sure if that is possible except if funded by the federal government treasury. It is a national charter. Failure was everywhere at so many levels of society. I would rather see this litigated closer to the specific cases.

All are possibilities as as I doubt every LC scout executive is in BSA good graces. Some are more tightly plugged in than others. Generally, I think this is about customer relations. LCs want unit scouters to focus on their units and not get caught up in the ugly larger noise. So, I really doubt LCs think the unit scouters want to know / need to know / should know the ugly details of everything going on.

I've given up predicting. I'm amazed we got this far. I don't even understand how the plan is legal to give so many 3rd party organizations legal protection ... especially as BSA's assets are approx $400m (at the start) and the insurance company, CO, LCs, etc cumulatively are in the billions.

Agreed and well-said. The trouble is looking back ... 1950s ... 1980s ... I really question whether courts and lawyers then would have interpreted as broadly as now being applied retroactively. ... BUT ... that's an old argument that will require pages and pages to re-hash. Time to restructure the relationship between BSA and the volunteers. BSA as a records-only organization seems like a possible good idea. LCs could have an association that forms / authors / votes on standards and policies. One standard is that to be a registered member in a troop, you need to make a record of your leadership in that unit. An application renamed as a unit membership record. The record is maintained by some new larger common-organization, but that larger common-organization is not treating you as an agent of their larger organization. Analogy ... many companies contract out Human Resources, Payroll, Legal, facilities, janitorial, etc. That does not make the company employees agents of the HR / payroll / legal / facilities / janitorial companies. ... Similar, local councils could contract out the record keeping to an organization hired / contracted by the LC association to manage their application / advancement records. ... extension ... this could be extended down to LC / UNIT level. ... then agency is really at the unit level where it always has been. ... It's important to make the legal situation meet the reality of how the program works. BSA and LCs never have had staffing control over units.

HA non-profits? Separating is smart to legally split resources to avoid having deep, deep pockets that bait lawsuits. Creating targeted non-profits would be fine. My ideal would be that National Parks create the idea of Adventure Bases that schedule, outfit and support non-profit youth organizations that teach outdoor skills and provide outdoor experiences. Philmont National Park. Summit National Park. Each would have trek paths. Each would have outfitting. Each would have specialty sub-camps. Northern Tier is already surrounded by massive national parks with many outfitters that can easily support scout-sized groups. Sea Base ... I hate saying it as I love Sea Base, but Sea Base could be either a dedicated non-profit or it's role could be absorbed by existing for-profit outfitters. ... The last time we sent a crew down ... Sea Base contracted with a private ship to sail the scouts. Sea Base provided the food, some gear, showers and a bed the night before the trek started. So, the "Sea Base" experience was very limited. Replace BSA with LC association A strong argument can be made here, but replacements would need to be found. It's not just about standards. Associations staffed by LC volunteers We have previous good examples here such as how the 2011 GTA was created. LCs could recommend volunteers that participate in national standards and associations targeting: uniform, advancement, etc Program and standards Perfectly setup for group authoring via volunteer associations Supply Patches would need approved / designed suppliers We used classb.com for years. There are others. Provide standard artwork for official patches. Provide standards and recommended vendors. Recommend units buy from the same vendor. Google: tan tactical shirt short sleeve ... or tan explorer short sleeve shirt Google: olive green canvas tactical shorts ... or olive green canvas tactical pants Hard infrastructure ... Some things do need more than just associations. Examples Records database Background checks ... potentially could be done by each LC now Insurance ... potentially could be done by each LC now BSA Membership Perhaps we need to re-think being a registered BSA member. Rather, BSA is really a records-keeping organization (and has always been) . ... yeah, we have a record of this volunteer. Yep, they submitted an application. Yep, they had a background check. Yep, they are associated with this city / charter org / scouting unit. Yep, this scout earned XXX rank and these badges. Here's a report on the years of their involvement. The legal documents really need to reflect reality, as there is no way BSA has ever or could ever effectively treat their massive volunteer base as employees. BSA needs to re-think the structure to get the legal structure to match reality. ... side note ... It still baffles me. BSA has liability as the volunteers are viewed as acting agents (employees). But, the agents pay to be members inside BSA. So, BSA really has no employment role with them. It's really strange.

Judge is waiting for the Geek Squad to recover her password.

For those who keep score ... ... Today is July 15, 2022 BSA filed bankruptcy - Feb 18, 2020 ... 2 years 5 months ago Court hearings ended and waiting ruling - April 15, 2022 (?) ... 3 months ago Appeals, creating and administering the trust, etc, ... TBD years

Yes. ... from my limited following, it seems BSA wants the bigger bankruptcy. I'd argue it's definitely also the plaintiff side too. From my understanding, if it was a BSA only bankruptcy, the pot of money is much smaller and would be distributed to the victims. Instead, the bigger bankruptcy effectively lets the BSA money finance getting money from insurance companies, LCs, etc. ... This is the part that's sort of creepy to me. In large class actions, law firms often finance the suit as part of getting their own windfall. In this case ... at least in my view ... firms are getting hourly payments ... and will also get a large windfall as a share of the settlements. ... I could be wrong. It seems wrong to get both the hourly rates and the windfall.

Agreed. At some point, it's a matter of perspective too. For example, arguments can be made from statistical broad patterns and others are using a selection of legal cases. If you look from legal case wise, BSA is guilty. It's how the system works now. Many view that system as corrupt and as a self-serving legal system. i.e. the $185m in proceedings against a bankrupt company that had $400m in assets. If you approach the arguments from statistics, the IVF files might have a different conclusion. Then consider that BSA had 100+ million youth and 10s of millions of adults. You will find ugly legal cases in any organization of that size. ... If you look at statistical broad patterns to define, then there may be a different conclusion. ... i.e. did BSA have a higher incident rate than others. I've been reading the IVF files and amazed at the numbers that I'm seeing that do have press clippings and/or police involvement. I was actually trying to do see what the percentages were. Take ten random cases from every five years. Were police involved? Was there press? Did parents know? I wish I could have finished last night.

Shame on you. Eventually every discussion ends with bringing Hitler in. I'd argue against devaluing other people by associating them with trump or evil or racism or genocide. It's just not scout like. The opposition would point out the badgering, bullying and attempts to overwhelm and devalue the opinion of others. We should avoid this association so we don't become yet another set of hypocrites sitting on a Jan 6th house committee on unamerican activities.

Thanks Johnsch322. ... Last night just to remember ... because this has been going on for painfully long time ... I re-read 20(???) of the files. The files are painful to read. I ran into one or two where LA times (or lawyers) highlighted parts they thought were significant; a thread of comments about confidentiality and media coverage. It took a lot of though on what those words meant and the context of the comments. The highlighted parts dealt with confidentiality. The case had prosecutors, police, parents and press (word chosen for alliteration ... a media representative that as also on the local council executive board) not pass the information onto the local newspaper. All parties agreed on the action course. Press were involved. It really begged a pre-existing judgement to decide if it was noise or damming evidence. To be honest, where the IVF files really creep me out is just how many times everyone (parents, police, council, etc) push for the perpetrator to get treatment or that it's treated as a morality crime. Or that the conviction is dealt with a really short jail time or even just probation. ... To see parents write letters asking that their son's abuser get treatment just creeps me out.

Many of us have read dozens and dozens of files. It's not that the files are hearsay and innuendo. It's that the interpretation people are applying is often twisted by decades of time having passed or ignoring context or simply begging the conclusion people want to present. Of the thousands of files, you will be able to find ones that are not handled well. From what I've read, most (not all) seem like they were handled reasonably given the time and place.

Printed materials from 1960s/70s were still the believe your government / trust authority. The street protests of the late 1960s were opposite. The printed materials were 20 years behind. I'll track down the referenced examples.

I just can't imagine. What a hell of a caricatured childhood to grow up in. Dumb question - I fear even asking. What was a soft hands contest? That makes no sense.

@ThenNow ... As always, I respect what you say and appreciate your writing it clear and well. I agree BSA has improved over the years. Some on it's own. Some by court. I don't accept BSA had a higher standard. I saw your earlier post quoting the BSA handbook. It was the same post-war marketing rhetoric we often saw talking about people in position. I often think about the TV show MASH episode that mocked the rhetoric when the episode was about making a pre-movie war news reel. Hawkeye and Trapper John entered the tent with narration about sainted doctors in surgical garb. ... That was the time. Same with Disney school documentaries or the Mr. Science hour or many other different videos. That does not automatically create a higher expectation. I think about about groups that clearly failed that explicitly did have higher standards. Police. Courts. Schools. etc. I also don't accept the conceal statement. But, we've been thru this many times. I guess this discussion is who-posts last.

STEM ... Trades ... Traditional MBs ... Perhaps the best way to decide the direction to go is to just measure popularity. A summer camp should see which are popular ... probably a result of the camp offering a great program / experience. Those that are popular are the ones that scouts probably enjoy and benefit from. Perhaps just minimize naming / categorization into STEM / TRADES. Any MB can be categorized different ways. IMHO, do scouts enjoy and benefit. Perhaps the real issue is special STEM marketing and special groupings of STEM into special awards that feel like marketing.

My youngest son took a combined welding and metal working summer camp session. Acetylene torch welding. Blast furnace. Anvil, tongs and hammer. ... Scared him to death initially, but then he really got into it. ... The "gifts" he brought home got wrapped in a blanket so they would scratch my car or puncture the car seats. I never really understood if it was just "trades" or STEM. IMHO, these types of classes were the best. REASON: He will never get these experiences elsewhere. It's eye opening.

There are many reasons. ... Though over 100 years and 100m+ youth, you will always find examples to criticize BSA, in most case files I read there was a reasonable good path taken by BSA. From what I've read, BSA was far from minimizing and hiding. The last file discussed had the unit committee (parents of the scouts), state attorney and state police involved. This is a common pattern in many of the files. The direct purpose of the IVF files was to block dangerous volunteers. The very same volunteers that cities, police and parents often did not do anything about. Basic humanity is often very ugly, and often large groups blame individuals for the group's failure.

committee = BSA is the "legal" interpretation. Morally, labeling "BSA" because it's the unit leaders is just manure. There were tens of millions of unit leaders and millions more. To call that "BSA" is calling all of society BSA. .... But that would be more correct as BSA has traditionally been a large cross-section of our nation ... with a congressional charter and a presidential review. ... It's why I still strongly assert the response was a sign of the times. committee did not want publicity is more accurately stated as Mayberry USA did not want the publicity ... AND also the kid's parents did not want publicity. That would be a statement I could accept. ... I'm not sure what is in page 4. It could be very private information such as membership cards of the youth and all youth involved. IMHO, obscured content is usually to protect youth. ... three perpetrators ... yeah, that sounds abnormal. I'm not sure what it means either. ... That's the trouble from trying to understand the context from 50 years ago. I can guess, but it would not be useful.

It's a partial statement from years ago with little context and virtually zero detail. I asked @johnsch322 for the IVF case file name. Thank you @johnsch322 Who requested that the boys not get too much publicity? ... From other pages in that file, it references the victims parents did not want state attorney to press charges. ... The IVF file also lists a state police file number and how BSA national can get more information from the state police. It also lists the state attorney general and the investigating officer (officer Potts) ... The reference to "services of State Trooper John Simms" (according to other pages) refers to Simms stepping up as SM for the coming year to help a troop really damaged by this incident. There is no inference Simms covered anything up. ... Rather, Simms (an Eagle scout) stepped up in a really ugly situation. ... Which begs asking how many people knew ... "committee" knew according to the file ... Most committees are staffed 90% by the parents of the current scouts. ... So, this may or may not have been in the press. It was in police investigated and well known. Yeah, the file does reference trying to preserve scoutings name too. But generally, this file seems to be a good reflection on the IVF files working as they were intended and shows many people did the right actions. A real sign of the times was a short phrase: Police filed no charges, rather the perpetrator was under doctors care and being treated. Yeah, it was treated as a disease and treatment centers that helped alcoholics also treated these individuals.

Posted in another thread. A good example of why the original rule might not have been sinister at all. Given the parental passions and volunteer conflicts, I could understand why an organization wanted to triage out the noise. A great cost savings was when BSA updated YP to route all calls to a government public organization. Let that organization handle a large share of the noise.

@Cburkhardt ... THANK YOU !!!!! I suspect I've seen this path happen a few times in the recent years. The triaging was probably the reason the original YP policy said to call the SE first.

I remember that training. It was before scout leaders were considered mandatory reporters. There was some view that a professional was needed to properly handle the reporting. It did not look weird. That appearance was far worse than any intension. ... but then again ... I've seen multiple abuse complains from mothers submitted due to shoe throwing, etc. ... So, I could see early opinions that a professional was needed to triage out bickering volunteers. BUT, yeah it should have always been call the police.

It's not that simple. Many troops assign their ASMs special roles / forcus areas. That does not automatically make it two positions. @SPG above had a well written answer that aligns with my view. The job(s) should align with how the troop works, and it can change over time. For me, the big question is whether the scouts work with the person. Is the job to be scout-facing? If yes, ASM. If scout's won't know the person's name, committee. If the youth know PERSON X is who they go to for advancement ... if PERSON X attends summer camp to help the scouts get to MB classes or helping scouts learn skills or handing out MBC names and blue cards ... that smells like an ASM job coordinated with the SM. If the youth have zero idea who PERSON X is or what they do AND in-the-background PERSON X gets paperwork from the SM; tracks what needs to be purchased; purchases; prepares awarding cards for the COH, then it is a committee role. Also, why does advancement have to be a single person? How about a tag team? Scout facing ASM and background supporting committee member. Do what works best with the adults you have.

This really begs deeper and deeper analysis. the Scout's Honor article pointing out that BSA started warning about CSA back in 1986 in the official BSA scouting leader magazine seems telling. I was not a leader in the 1970s or 1980s. Outside of individual cases, it seems that actions were occurring.