fred johnson

I'm part of the six percent. I have not seen this asserted 94% survey. "QUANTITATIVE" to earn a palm ... same old and new Active ... 3 months ... effectively registered. Unless troop has their own long-standing active standards for all ranks. Merit badges ... five ... usually earned years in the past ... We can hold a scout accountable to fulfill this explicit requirement. SMC ... one Spirit ... not measurable Leadership ... not measurable ... "satisfactory" ... hard to say they did not meet this "EFFORT" to earn a palm ... same old and new 5% effort is the SMC 10% to 20% effort is the leadership 75% to 85% effort is earning the five merit badges IN THE PAST ... I've cringed with palms as ... The number of palms reflected the age Eagle was earned. Palms rarely did not reflect any significant "NEW" extra effort. Reasons Effort was usually long in the past. The rare exception was a newly earned MB. Three months was mostly a "wait" and not reflecting any new effort. Little leadership beyond being a good example to other scouts. Mostly, palms were mostly a "showing up" award Scouts seeing someone get more bling with little effort ... worst part. People getting awards without earning new MBs or having a formal leadershp role. NEW CHANGE RESULTS No more "I've got enough merit badges to earn Eagle" ... There is always a reason now to keep doing more merit badges ... both before and after earning Eagle. No more earning eagle, mostly sitting around and getting more awards. Now, if you want another award after earning Eagle, you are actually doing measurable effort.

Yep. BSA for young adults would very much be an overlap with Outward Bound and other adventure trips. Almost a camping club.

You are right. When I was college age through mid 20s, I would have loved a Boy Scout program where I could canoe, hike and build skills. IMHO, the BSA youth program would have worked great for this age ... especially as those new adults would want to really learn the skills and build the experiences and explore the MB topics.

Yep. I just don't think BSA will ever remove the age boundary. The program is for youth. Maybe 18-21. But not all ages.

The "strenuous life" program is co-ed. Just same standards.

IMHO, the best advice is to let the scout figure out what is best for himself. Encourage him to think through options and the impact. Then, choose. IMHO, it really doesn't matter project or MB or ... It more matters that the scout has grown enough to own his advancement.

Can you point me to that survey ?

Scouts do learn from their role models. But they have way more time and more role models outside scouting than in scouting. We can emphasize and teach in our own troop, but our scouts interact with other scouts and other troops. Plus, sometimes we get lucky and have great kids who make our lives easy. Sometimes we are challenged by scouts who want to push limits and use scouting as their own "freedom" zone to get away with what they can. I disagree. Boundaries and separation promote bad behavior as those on the other side of the boundary are bad or less. Clubs that had membership criteria based on race or gender or orientation were associated with discrimination and bad behavior. Similar to the "boys only" nature of car maintenance of twenty years ago. Back then, it was almost 100% male and unquestioned for part vendors to give posters and calendars that we would never show our moms. "Boys only" has some benefits, but we also have to work to counteract natural consequences.

Sadly. I can see this happening. Multiple times I've overheard scout "private" conversations with inappropriate statements. Boys trying to be men. A "boys only" environment does enable it. Young men are learning how to communicate new interests in a "boys only" environment. I'm not against a "boys only" program, but I do not think "boys only" has anywhere near as much value as people assert. IMHO, the troop program has value by getting scouts outside in new situations that expand their comfort zones. Learning new skills. Dealing with sleeping with spiders and thunderstorms. Solving issues and learning to work together. Little value is from "boys only".

I find this interesting and very similar to our boy scout troop. Some troops are more structured, regimented and advancement focused. Our troop is more activity focused and more relaxed. Our troop program is about finding things the scouts want to do. We've had huge luck retaining scouts. I almost see us similar to a venturing crew in may ways. If scouts want to pursue advancement, we'll help them. But we treat advancement (merit badges) as an individual scout choice. Rank advancement is almost automatic by getting the scouts out and doing things. The troop program is structured around getting the scouts out and doing things. Often the adults are reminding the scouts that they can get things signed off for things they've done.

I think it's great. IMHO, BSA should focus less on guarding wrongly purchased patches and focus more on timely recognition. Heck, if anything, it would increase BSA sales of patches.

Yeah, I agree. I think it's the right way of doing things. I wish the scout store let troops build up a stash of patches without having to work the system to circumvent limits. IMHO, I think it's important for scouts to be able to wear their patches ASAP.

Just for those with large scarlet letters.

Great answers so far ... Just a few details to re-peat. Critical date is the BOR and/or MB signed date - The COH date means nothing. The COH is about receiving the decoration. So receiving the next rank and/or other progress is measured by the BOR date. Hopefully, the BOR date matches the date signed in the scout's handbook for the rank. I say this because many parents just don't realize the COH means nothing for advancement. It's just ceremony. It's tricky to use dues to hold back awards at a COH - Yep, things are expensive. If someone is not paying up, I can see holding them back from camp outs and/or receiving advancements. But it would be hugely demoralizing to not get your awards because of dues. If holding back awards because of dues, you better make sure the scout knows in advance and you better not put the scout on the printed COH program If the scout's mom shows up with a check that day,do you then add the scout to the agenda or make him wait for another court of honor? What about the case mentioned in the original post?If a scout is expecting the award at COH #1 ... and the scout was current with dues ... but the scout could not attend ... so then at COH #2 ... the scout attended ... but dues were not paid .. is it right to not present the award? He was current at the previous COH when the award was planned and the troop spent the money. It's just been in storage for three months. Personally, I'd disconnect presenting awards and whether the scout is financially up to date. IMHO, if a scout is repeatedly late, I'd be "tempted" to use a scout spirit or other similar requirement to get it fixed. Do some type of ceremony - I really hate holding back awards if a scout can't attend. I'd get them the awards as soon as possible at the next troop event / activity / meeting. But I also hate the "envelope" and "Here's your advancements. Sorry weren't at the COH." ... Just make sure there is some type of call-out. ... "Jimmy couldn't be at the last COH, but I want to make sure he's recognized for the work and progress he's made. Jimmy could you come forward ..." "REPLACEMENT" - So that's how you do it? I'd like our troop to have an awards chest ready to go so that we can recognize scouts with patches immediately. Then, the COH would be the paper certificates and/or recognition and handshakes.

I've had the same exact thought many times. Heck, we already skirt the rules. Other troops do too. We've had daughters on canoe trips, moderate-adventures and other things because they want to go on these adventures. It's just not an issue and doesn't impact the scout's program.

I recently watched this video. I was extremely impressed with the quality of the analysis and the presentation. https://www.glaacbsa.org/Scouting_Accessible I was impressed, but disappointed in a few ways. Impressed Proposed cub scout choice of boy only pack, girl only pack and family pack with gender based dens. Taking on a hard topic that made BSA an anachronism. Concerned (aka disappointed) "Family" is really being used to obscure "co-ed". It's a stepping stone term. I'd like to see the proposed Troop structure parallel to the proposed pack structure. I could see groups wanting purely single gender troops. But I could also see units wanting to create a "family" troop (aka co-ed) troop because numbers are low. It will happen. If we don't allow this, then groups will create work arounds that will be a big headache. Troop 123B for boys and Troop 123G for girls. Same leader. Same committee. Same schedule. Same camps. Two checking accounts. Two sets of re-charter paperwork. ... The solution is to keep it parallel to packs. Single gender patrols as the proposed pack structure is single gender dens. Double down on the "patrol" is the fundamental unit of scouting. I'd hate to see a new set of requirements or a new program created. Adult leaders have enough trouble managing all the existing requirements and structure and rules. ... What ever happens, keep it simple. ... We won't be moving out of an anachronism unless it's the same program (requirements, structure, rules, etc) for both genders. Even these comments, I am extremely impressed with the proposed ideas. I hope these changes don't take years. I know several 15 year old young ladies that would jump at the chance to be in Boy Scouts and to earn Eagle.

I always enjoy seeing what other units do. We are similar, but try to target 10 weekend trips (2 nights), one summer camp (7 nights) and one adventure program a year. We try to have one activity available per month, but that's 100% up to the scouts. So it's pretty easy to get 25 nights camping a year and possible to get 33 or more nights a year.

Personal view ... not BSA interpretation ... ... At some point, it's a utilitarian issue. If you have a roof over your head, you don't need to wear a hat. I also take my jacket off when I go into a heated building.

AFTER Eagle ... little difference. MBs earned before Eagle ... I guess it's what you want to emphasize. I really don't like the gaming of the system that happens now. Scouts, parents and leaders near (before or after) almost always calculate how many palms the scout can earn ... WITHOUT doing any new MBs. Whether you like it or not, Eagle palms are mostly about MBs. I like the change as it clears the slate. Future awards are based on future work. Your troop solves it by treating the Eagle palm leadership requirement effectively the same as the Star, Life and Eagle leadership requirements even though they are worded drastically differently.

I am not sure where the double dipping discussion came from, but I agree with the double dipping should not happen. Didn't before. Should not in the future. Scout has 26 MBs, that's 21 for Eagle and 5 for a palm. Pretty straight forward. "3 months of POR" ... There is no three months of POR with palm. Never has been. It's 3 months active. You could have one day of leadership and fulfill the palm requirements. ... I do sympathize though. Palms awarded with Eagle avoid the extra "active" time. I'm just not that concerned with that part as most scouts are active far longer than the 16 months critical to earning Eagle. I'm more concerned with giving awards years after the work was done. The new change makes recognition closer to when the work was done.

Old requirement never stated a POR duration or even the requirement to hold a leadership "position". The requirement was "Make a satisfactory effort to develop and demonstrate leadership ability". Pretty much anything positive fulfills this requirement. The new requirements are similar "Continue to set a satisfactory example of accepting responsibility or demonstrating leadership ability" Your troop may be requiring more, but the wording is different that you stated. One day of helping a younger scout pretty much fulfills what BSA states as a requirement.

I did similar when my son sent. It effectively was $200 to $250 for the trip. My general rule ... Most scouts spend what scouts have. Give him $10 and he'll spend $10. Give him $200 and he'll spend $200. He won't starve, meals are covered. Same with lodging and travel. Of course this is my "general" rule. I have a few kids who if they have $200 on them, they will go home with $200. I have some kids if you send them with $200, they will go home owing people money.

Yeah, I really don't care what you call it. The old system was bad in that Eagle scouts would regularly get awards for doing essentially squat. I'm not saying the new approach is perfect, but at least the post-eagle awards are tied to something current and not just work done before they earned Eagle. I had grown to dislike palms as they seemed more about scouts manipulating than doing work. "Oh, I complete my ECOH on this date and I have a chance to get three palms." but the catch is what does the scout have to do after the ECOH to get those palms ... close to nothing. At least the new approach better ties the work to the award.

I can understand the frustration. I had to think on this one. Here are the reasons I like the change. Life scout with at least the needed 21 merit badges ... With old approach, why keep doing merit badges? They can make Eagle. They got their job done. ... With new approach, two more and you get a palm at the Eagle COH. Eagle scout with 45 merit badges and one year left in the program. With old approach, why keep doing merit badges? You can't earn more palms. ... With new approach, you can do more work and get more awards right up to 18. IMHO, the new approach provides and incentive for scouts to work merit badges. What I disliked about the old approach was scouts were regularly getting awards every several months for badges they earned years in the past. It was almost comical. I've seen scouts stop doing merit badges at 14 but then calculate how many palms they could earn until they age out. The key focus was on submitting paperwork on the right days. I like the new approach as the scouts standing up at troop COHs will now be recognized for current work.

That was the right decision.