fred johnson

I'm talking about the adult leader application that we've all signed multiple times. What you described in your posts does not match the intent or explicit content of BSA publications. It's bad as you are holding the scout accountable for something you created by not being accountable to BSA. But each to their own. I choose to follow the program I put my name under. Per BSA GTA if a scout completed the time, he's completed his POR. There can be reasonable extensions, but a six month duration made into a year is not reasonable. It's doubling the expectation. Not finishing the POR is not an issue as the requirement was fulfilled before giving up the POR. As it was already completed, it should not be used as a penalty for not finishing troop level time in position expectations. Troops get stuck all the time trying to enforce things they have no right to enforce.

Nice job. I thought LDS announcement was clear and well written. This forum just had the same thing happen that political protesters use: grabbing onto anything they can to promote their agenda. BSA has been changing in sensitive ways. It cropped up in the LDS discussion.

As much as I get queasy every time this happens. I agree with Stosh. My interpretation of the PM is that the patrol should plan their own camp outs and their own activities. Maybe within a larger troop camp out. Maybe on their own camp out. But in an ideal PM world, the PLC does not plan patrol activities as it contradicts the heart of the idea of the patrol method. The answer I would use is that the patrol plans their own activities such that they cover their members. For age constraints, they work as a team (patrol) to figure out what to do.

So ... You expect the scouts to fulfill their commitments. Yet, you put your signature on a BSA application that says you choose to lead and represent BSA's program. BSA clearly documents the requirement is fulfilled at six months. Done deal at that time. Not to pick a fight, but isn't there a contradiction there. Do I say, but not as I do?

Fully agree. It just comes down to finding adults that are robust enough, experienced enough and healthy enough to do a year round program.

Ok. I chuckled.

Welcome. Refer to Guide To Safe Scouting section 1 sub section on "Adult Supervision/Coed Activities". http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf Short answer, yes. Long smart-alec answer, but if you remove all youth boys making it only youth girls and thus not co-ed, then it is okay for only male adult leaders. Hmmmm ... Sort of like now with Boy Scout troops where SM and other adult could be both female while camping. With the more complex subjective definitions of gender, it seems wrong to require adult leaders of multiple genders. I say multiple as following the same logic there is not just two genders anymore. Honestly, I'm pretty smart and I can't find consistency anywhere anymore.

Ahhh ... So there is something that LDS did better than everyone else. I'd absolutely love to see just a 3 year cub program.

Not true. We are chartered by a Baptist church and I receive emails from national Baptist organizations (even though I'm not Baptist) reconfirming their commitment and their value in the scouting program.

Money is the biggest worry in my mind too. How much is lost in registration fees? But then again, to be an organization of integrity, depending on fees from those not using the program is questionable. I think a key issue is as others wrote BSA's vision and goals. BSA actually has a great core model that does keep getting screwed up, both by local units and by national organization. By local units that become so perversely focused on how to teach leadership and how to teach other lessons that it damages the experiences for the scouts. By national that keeps trying to find the next pet rock to solve the issue. The program is best when units focuses on getting scouts back to nature camping, canoeing, hiking and having adventures that safely push their comfort zones. In my opinion, everything comes from that focus. Life lessons. Leadership lessons. Opportunities to teach faith. Also, I think that is what will drive membership.

I'm not so sure on this. Camp fires and ceremonies and new experiences is the perfect environment for a young faith based program. Perhaps it's Varsity and Venturing that did not serve well as a youth faith program.

I think we'll continue to see changes like the LDS because BSA has played a grey area trying to be all things to everyone. Open but filtering membership. Faith based but recruiting from public schools. Boy only but needing adult female mom help. IMHO, BSA will always have a faith based component at the heart of the program. It will always have citizenship. Always have outdoors. Always promote skills and responsibility. Getting to a more consistent core program is important. The rest is noise and BSA will survive it. A hundred years from now BSA will look very much like BSA. Even with girls. Even with irrational liberal democrats.

I'm with Stosh on this. It is possible that the article should be taken on face value. Varsity and Venturing are hard to implement and do not meet the objectives of the LDS church. Beyond $$$, I'm not sure this is that big of news. I know several LDS Eagle scouts who value scouting because of scouting ... not because of the LDS youth component. There will be a membership hit, but I bet it's not that bad. Lost varsity and venturing membership will be seen as some troop growth. I doubt troops will be affected as those over 14 in a troop would continue in the troop. In my opinion, this could be good. Varsity is an unknown and poorly supported and poorly understood program. Venturing is usually not a real long term option. BSA might save money not having to describe Varsity scouting yet again. BSA might do better to ditch the Venturing model and create something new and different ... like troop young adult partners ... or college reserves.

GREAT USE OF TERMS !!!!! Patrol box pallbearers. So many people swear by patrol boxes. I swear at them. Some people test camping supplies by if they are good for backpacking. I test them by if they are good for canoeing. Patrol boxes don't work with canoes.

Belladonna ... Congratulations to your son. I'm sad for your son that things turned sour with his existing troop. Sadly, it happens. But I agree. If it is as you said, they have no right to deny recognizing the leadership or the activity. Even if your troop did document standards for attendance, etc, your son's outside involvement and commitments would have been viewed by the council as acceptable reasons and would have fulfilled requirements. IMHO, it sounds like your troop wanted to promote higher standards and then got stuck enforcing what they promoted. Trouble is you can promote a higher image, but you can't enforce those as laws. Congratulations. It sounds like he truly earned it. Perhaps this is a good lesson for your son to reflect how he would support those that he has authority over.

I'm used to SOAR. When BSA bought Scoutbook, I looked at it too. It's lacking from what we need in so many ways. If we tracked advancement like so many troops do, we'd use TroopMaster. But we don't. We keep it thin and only use BSA Online Advancement. Made me wonder why BSA bought ScoutBook? I recently sat in a ScoutBook presentation and heard the reason. BSA back-end database is going away. It's out of date and not supportable. They are upgrading ScoutBook's database to become BSA's backend database. That was part of the ScoutBook presentation. So I guess in the long run, our troop will be using ScoutBook. It's years down the road, but it will happen. Not sure we'll use the site or some cheap front end. But it will be BSA's main tool.

20 nights camping is the requirement. More nights camping is just a comment on his experience and what he got out of it. We have had at least two scouts recently who had trouble two twenty nights. One had severe allergies. The other was on major medicines and had a drug port. (not diabetic) Getting 20 nights camping was hard. One won't make Eagle. The other will. So for some, 20 nights is a big hurdle in itself. Each kid is unique.

Everyone's definition of "uber" scout is different. Seems like one night camping would promote the opposite. Seems like adults creating an excuse to have their Sunday's free. One reason we leave in the morning is so that we don't start thinking about leaving on a main activity day. I guarantee you our troop switches into the mode of "let's pack up" when we realize we will be leaving soon. Heck, I'd be packing as much as possible around 7:30am Saturday. Scouters need to focus less on "patrol method" and "slowing down" or "speeding up" requirements. The right focus is on program. Let's camp. Let's canoe. Let's get out there and do things. Then, let the requirements naturally follow.

Absolutely camping is a center piece of scouting. I'd also like to see something similar such as 21 merit badges with 20 nights of camping or 14 with 50 nights or 12 with 100 nights of camping. I'm not sure what, but my sons each have easily had 100+ nights of camping. My first son probably had 150+ with the troop (every month plus summer camp plus high adventures plus jamboree) and 300+ when you add years of camp staff. But, the requirements are the requirements. It says 20 nights. If you meet the requirements, you are just as much an Eagle scout as anyone else. Sadly the scoutmaster could use his option to deny the badge if he doesn't think you earned it. But talk with him NOW. If he at all indicates he would use this option, switch troops NOW. Don't wait. Don't put advancement at risk because of a non-supportive leader.

Who owns the building? Who has the bigger purse?

This is one of the hardest issues. Scouting is very much about friendship and fellowship. When people switch units, it is very very hard to not take it personally. It's similar to a divorce followed by an immediate marriage. It's really hard to not take it personally. You can wish everyone the best, but personal feelings are hard to avoid. Be sensitive to feelings.

Agreed. Same with us. I just have a hard time reconciling that the scout shop verifies the merit badge counselor name on the advancement report. If they are not current, they won't sell you the merit badge. In our council, the scout shop and council advancement staff have no idea which merit badge counselor was used. It's verified in the troop. No verification is done at council level. AHHH ... I see what is confusing ... I left a partial edit. "respecting that process" .... What I meant by "having a hard time respecting" was a process that requires me to report the merit badge counselor name. It's really none of the council's business after I've submitted my BSA online advancement. Now, if the council wants us to hand-in all blue cards and the council types the data into BSA Internet Advancement, fine. They can verify the merit badge counselor. But if they want us to submit it into BSA Internet Advancement and it's official, then it's to late for a council to review the merit badge councilor. It's just noise at that point. What would they do? Go into the record and un-record the merit badge? I suspect instead the scout will have it officially recorded, but they won't get a merit badge. That's just a bad process. Plus what's the fix? The fix would be me as a scout leader to go find a registered MBC and have them sign it. No scout involved. Unless it's out-right fraud, the scout's already done and I've accepted the badge. Instead what is really going on usually is the MBC fell off the list because he has to re-register every year or two.

The process seems strange. Something just doesn't add up. If your troop does BSA Online Internet Advancement, the award is recorded and official. Now that it's official, you just need to pick up the badges. In BSA Internet Advancement, use the "Advancement Report" and print that out. It's BSA's official report that is formatted for the scout shops to use. The scout shops are not council owned and operated. They are BSA owned and operated. As such, they should accept their own report consistently across all stores. That's what they use at our store. The only thing I could imagine is if your scout shop is so small that the council employees are also BSA employees and staff the scout store. The BSA Advancement Report even has a pick-sheet telling how many of each award to purchase. Internet advancement has an "Advancement Report" who's main purpose is to bring to scout stores to buy awards. To be honest, I'd have a hard time respecting that process.

We use ScoutBook to retrieve and present a pretty picture. But in reality, it just doesn't add value for us. Reporting is very limited. We use online advancement because it does provide a few key formatted reports that are very useful.

We have an advancement box. Advancements are directly entered into BSA online advancement.