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"A lot of the new training's seem to be very similar to Wood Badge (OJ attended a OA Officer Training which was very like WB, even having the participants write goals which they were to meet before they received their patch) If we are not careful, the course might become very much a been there, done that sort of thing. " You're speaking about the OA's National Leadership Seminar. Actually, what happened was that some elements of NLS was incorporated into the new WB. Other elements are the same because they are providing the same leadership concepts (Situational Leadership and Team Development Model/Team Leadership Model). Keep in mind that NLS is MAINLY for youth lodge officers, who would probably not take WB for several years, IF they become adult leaders. As to the goals. In NLS you make 3 goals, to be done within 6 months (i believe). The setting and achieve goals is not something unique to WB. I personally feel its one thing that makes ANY course better. "I have not seen or had much to do with the new course that replaced JLTC -Heck I can't even get the name of it right NYL? There was talk in our Council of inviting Venturers to attend. Even though I didn't know the course I wasn't keen on mixing the two groups." National Youth Leadership Training (NYLT). Go get a copy of the syllabus. Again, NYLT does cover the same leadership concepts (SL, TDM/TLM), and using new terms for the different stages that have now been moved into WB. I've heard people say the same thing in my area. I disagree. Why? Because NYLT is all about training BOY to be Troop-level leaders. A Venturers (are you going to allow the girls to also attend) would be lost with all the troop terms that are meaningless to a Venturer. "Quarterdeck Training is real big in Sea Scouting. Sadly the Sea Scout Manual does make mention of it being needed but that's about it. The National Web Site directs me to the Sea Scout Skippers /Leader Handbook which has been out of print since BP was a Boy (Well almost!)" Actually, its only been out of print since the 70s. There is a softcopy of what is supposed to be the next edition. I know here there is going to a CD with the Skipper Handbook, and maybe the long rumoured Crew Leader Manual (which hasn't been inprint since the 50s...). I would think they would have info on Quarterdeck training at the Sea scout site. I think I've also see it at the National Quartermaster Association site. Sea Scouts can attend VLSC, Kodiak, and Kodiak-X. Also, work to get your Sea Scouts to attend SEAL. That's Sea Scout Advanced Leader Training. "I'll admit the temptation to "Borrow" a few bits from WB did occur to me but the Angel on my right should beat the devil on my left. I have managed to put together a fairly decent course borrowing stuff from other Sea Scouter's, the old course, venturing courses, and some stuff from White Stag. " Go for it. Nothing stopping you. In my home council we put together elements of different courses to create an 'advanced JLTC'. Sadly we only did that once. But they've also been successful with a great University of Scouting program that includes a College of Scouting Arts degree program, College of Commissioner Science degree program, and a new Advanced Outdoor Training program.

"A lot of the new training's seem to be very similar to Wood Badge (OJ attended a OA Officer Training which was very like WB, even having the participants write goals which they were to meet before they received their patch) If we are not careful, the course might become very much a been there, done that sort of thing. " You're speaking about the OA's National Leadership Seminar. Actually, what happened was that some elements of NLS was incorporated into the new WB. Other elements are the same because they are providing the same leadership concepts (Situational Leadership and Team Development Model/Team Leadership Model). Keep in mind that NLS is MAINLY for youth lodge officers, who would probably not take WB for several years, IF they become adult leaders. As to the goals. In NLS you make 3 goals, to be done within 6 months (i believe). The setting and achieve goals is not something unique to WB. I personally feel its one thing that makes ANY course better. "I have not seen or had much to do with the new course that replaced JLTC -Heck I can't even get the name of it right NYL? There was talk in our Council of inviting Venturers to attend. Even though I didn't know the course I wasn't keen on mixing the two groups." National Youth Leadership Training (NYLT). Go get a copy of the syllabus. Again, NYLT does cover the same leadership concepts (SL, TDM/TLM), and using new terms for the different stages that have now been moved into WB. I've heard people say the same thing in my area. I disagree. Why? Because NYLT is all about training BOY to be Troop-level leaders. A Venturers (are you going to allow the girls to also attend) would be lost with all the troop terms that are meaningless to a Venturer. "Quarterdeck Training is real big in Sea Scouting. Sadly the Sea Scout Manual does make mention of it being needed but that's about it. The National Web Site directs me to the Sea Scout Skippers /Leader Handbook which has been out of print since BP was a Boy (Well almost!)" Actually, its only been out of print since the 70s. There is a softcopy of what is supposed to be the next edition. I know here there is going to a CD with the Skipper Handbook, and maybe the long rumoured Crew Leader Manual (which hasn't been inprint since the 50s...). I would think they would have info on Quarterdeck training at the Sea scout site. I think I've also see it at the National Quartermaster Association site. Sea Scouts can attend VLSC, Kodiak, and Kodiak-X. Also, work to get your Sea Scouts to attend SEAL. That's Sea Scout Advanced Leader Training. "I'll admit the temptation to "Borrow" a few bits from WB did occur to me but the Angel on my right should beat the devil on my left. I have managed to put together a fairly decent course borrowing stuff from other Sea Scouter's, the old course, venturing courses, and some stuff from White Stag. " Go for it. Nothing stopping you. In my home council we put together elements of different courses to create an 'advanced JLTC'. Sadly we only did that once. But they've also been successful with a great University of Scouting program that includes a College of Scouting Arts degree program, College of Commissioner Science degree program, and a new Advanced Outdoor Training program.

OGE and purcelce covered a lot of point that I was going to. So I'll only add this. Why is there 'confusion and anxiety from other scouters about venturing'? Sounds to me like a lack of training. New Leader Essentials, which all of them should have taken, is supposed to cover Venturing. Also, if they would bother to take Venturing Leader Specific Training, that might answer a lot of their questions. (of course, I'm assume that 1) your council is offering it, and 2) they have qualified VENTURING trainers giving it, not some bozo reading from a syllabus). The National website provides a lot of materials on Venturing. There are also several videos available (which your council should have, either on VHS tape or DVD). One of the videos is aimed at Scoutmasters. Also, as a High Adventure Crew, I recommend that you look for and take a Powder Horn course asap. Sounds like your council probably isn't offering it, so look at the powder horn website for a nearby course and take it (www.powderhorn-bsa.org). Also, as a new crew, I would recommend that you and others in your crew joing the 'venturinglist' Yahoo Group. They knowledgeable people there can help you out.

First off, the word is "Webelos". Do not drop the 's' off it, its incorrect. National does not make anything for past Denners. This does not prevent you from doing something. Ideas: * I would give the past Denner his cords to keep as a memento item. * create a nice certificate for them. Maybe add a digital picture of him in his uniform with his cords. * you could easily get a patch made that say something like 'Past Denner' or the like. Put a button loop on it.

The outfits that your lodge & chapter would use for ceremonies (in my area we don't like to call them 'costumes', they are outfits or regalia) should be based on the native clothing of the tribes in your area. You (and your lodge & chapter) should do research as to the appropriate clothing in your area. I know that there are many within the OA who do this (there is a whole section at NOAC for American Indian Activities on this, and in some sections there are people in other lodges who can help you). You should be looking to MAKING your own outfits, based on the research you do. I know that there is information out there on the Delaware Indians. (I can't help you, because my research is on the Seminoles and other Southeastern tribes)

I hand sew all the patches on my uniform, because I don't know how to use a machine. The local scout shops will sew the patches on, for a per-patch charge. I find that stapling them to the shirt works better then using pins. Also, I always find that going thru the patch between the border and patch works fine. I get little resistance.

In most councils I've been involved in, the District Camporee (and other District events) are planned and organized by the District Camping/Activities Committee. This does not preclude them calling upon unit-level scouts and scouters to help out, or getting the local OA Chapter to have a function.

I'd have to agree with Beaver. Some who has gotten 3 beads and been on staff for WB21C seems strange to want to be a participant. I, too, had gotten my beads doing BSLWB back in the late 80s, and finally got my third as a staffer on WB21C. The policies regarding who can be participant, staff, etc for WB21C seems to have been changing over the years. When WB21C was rolled out, no one who had participated in the old WB was allowed to be a participant. This was done to allow new people the change to be on the course. I had heard of a weekend 'WB refresher' course that would give us 'oldies' the new stuff, but I could never get a straight answer if this was a National thing or a local thing with National approval. Obviously, old participants/staffers had to be the staffers on the new course. As noted, I believe it was this year (2006) that they allowed old participants to go thru the new course, and also require that any staffers either be participants in the new course, or a past staffer on the new course. I also know that the rules for who could be CD was changing. To be a CD does require one to have experience in different positions of a WB course. On the course I was staffing, the guy who was going to be the CD on the next year's course was serving as a TG, because of these new requirements, while our course's CD told me that he didn't have to do this, because he was still under the previous rules. I can feel for the 2 people you mentioned who wanted to be on staff and got snubbed. I never sought out a staff position on the old course, but wanted to learn more about the new course, and so for several years tried to get on staff in my home council, only to be repeated rebuffed (all the while getting form letters from our SE to be a participant on the new courses). I finally got a staff position with my new council, but still am not happy with how my home council treated me. I can see the idea behind old participants being on staff for the new course. I had a learning curve as a staffer on the new course to find out how things worked and fit myself in. I think that is part of the concern.

"I have a question though, if any of the supply folks are still reading this thread. Will these pants be coming out for the Venturing uniform as well? I am starting a new crew and I don't want to even buy the standard style if these will be an option." It really doesn't matter if National Supply is going to make them for Venturing or not. Its the color of the pants/shorts, not their source that matters. You are NOT required to get Venturing pants/shorts from National Supply. You can go find charcoal gray pants/shorts from other sources and STILL be 'in uniform'. Go check out Bass Pro Shop, Cabelas, or other on-line vendors. The make shorts, pants, and zip offs in charcoal gray. All of the shorts I wear for Venturing I got from Bass Pro Shop.

"I dont think the intent of fitness in the scouting concept was for kids to necessarily excel at fitness, but to make an attempt at it and to stay active. " Actual, fitness doesn't just mean physical fitness. Its also mental, moral, and spiritual fitness. But I have to agree with the poster. We are not trying to turn scouts into jocks, but to instill in them fitness in the sense good eating habits, hygiene, and being physically active. A lot of the things we do in scouting (swimming, hiking/backpacking, cooking, etc) ties in with that.

There is no such thing as "venture scouts" in the BSA. The young lady seen last week is a venturer. The Boy Scouts of America is not SOLELY for boys. We have many female ventuers and many female scouters. Should we ignore them? (and frankly, I think there would be a lot of boy who might WANT to join if they knew there were girls in Venturing and Sea Scouts...)

After reading over this thread, let me add something. While I have been a troop guide/ticket counselor, I don't claim to be an expert on WB tickets. * some people say that currently you create 5 tickets. This is incorrect. its ONE ticket, composed of 5 goals. Even with the old WB (which I did) our ticket was composed of multiple goals/activities. * there is no need for ticket secrecy. the ticket is a contract/agreement between the participant and their troop guide/ticket counselor. No one else is involved in it. Now, I DO like the idea of having sample tickets to show participants. I know that when I have been faced with similiar things (come up with goals, etc), I really like to see examples of what is expected, so I know how to come up with something that works/is meaningful for me. I recall someone on another list saying that on their course they had WB ticket samples for cub scouters, boy scouter, and venturing leaders. I really wanted to see those, as I fealt it could help others. * as the ticket is between the participant & TG/TC, most TGs will allow for changes in ticket items IF there are reasons. (I did) If a participant changes position, the items might need to be changed. Personally I prefer they they remain in the same 'spirit' as the original. Say, if one item was for training, the new version should still be about training, but be relavent for the new position, etc. * also, in my area if one says they are doing something 'for their woodbadge ticket', that can really open doors to get things done. people understand the importance of the ticket, and so won't throw needless barriers to getting things done. * as noted, ticket items should be relavent for that participant. Some things I like to see are, or think should be avoided: ** training. training is always good, and getting the participant to seek out additional training is great. ** diversity is now a big theme in WB. On our course, one ticket item was expected to be tied to diversity. ** avoid having all your ticket items be tied in with the same thing. You don't want to create a 'house of cards' in which all the items are tied in with, say, establishing a new unit. If something happens to prevent this, then all the items can't be done. Bad idea. * while I don't see a problem with soon to be participants getting info on what a ticket is, etc, I recommend against coming into the course with an almost pre-written ticket. Each council may be a little different about how they handle things. Nothing wrong with going in with some ideas, but allow yourself the change to experience WB and taking with your TG/TC before putting together your final ticket. hope this is of use.

"You can have a real cruel boss, so if you say your boss is acting like "Darth Vader", " Yeah. Uh, we have a problem. Yeah. I'm going to have to disagree with you, yeah. In the corporate world, we are more like to use Dilbert, Office Space, or The Office to compare our bosses to. We're more likely to say we have a Pointy-Haired Boss (PHB) or a 'Bill Lumbergh' or the like.

"His 4th Ticket item was to "post my personal thoughts about how to modernize Scouting." His 5th Ticket item was to "promote my website nationally through forums and letters to the leadership." I hate to ask what his other 3 items were. I wonder how these two ticket items are SMART and relate to his vision for his current position in his unit. " I didn't see his ticket items being posted, but I have to wonder as well, having been a TG/CC. My own criteria is that ones ticket should take between 6-18 months to complete. If one has most/all of the ticket done before 6 months, I would find it unusual. And, of course, 18 months is the deadline. I believe on another thread he claimed to have complete 4 of the 5 items in a month or so. Don't see how that could be possible. None of the people in my patrol could have done that, just due to the nature of their items. Also, how are these measured? How can they be defined as being completed. In our council, we want WB participants to do ticket items to be related to their current role, with one being tied to diversity. Some of the typical items deal with things like additional training, pushing/achiving new things in their role, etc. All can be verified as being done (get the training, doing FOS presentations, kids earning awards, unit doing activies, etc). None can be done sooner then 6 months or so. The first person in my patrol to complete his ticket got it done in about 8 months and really pushed to do this. But he had a reason: he was moving out of the area and wanted to complete it before he moved. Another patrol worked their tickets so they all got beaded at the same time, about a year after the course was over.

"I can spend hours reading comic books such as: Asterix and Obelix Tintin Lucky Luc Nero Smurfs Gaston Astro Boy all in French of course, back whence ... " Astro Boy is Japanese, btw. For those interested, you can get all the Tintin, Asterix, and Astro Boy comics in english. All great stuff. As to other comics. Many Disney comics are great. I prefer the Barks Ducks stories, and those by other artist/writers in the same vein. Gemstone is doing a good job at keeping them in print, and finally introducing American readers to all the great work created overseas for Disney. Don't forget that Donald's three nephews are members of the Junior Woodchucks! In Italy, some of the most popular comic (all aimed at adults, not kids) are titles like Nathan Never, Martin Mystery, Dylan Dog, and DIABOLIK. Some of their adventures have been translated into English. Diabolik is one of the most popular, and there is even a movie (available on DVD) about him. Diabolik is an anti-hero, a thief and killer who always outwits the police (and other criminals) in his thiefs. Great role model! But he only kills bad people. The rest he just knocks out.

"If Scouting is supposed to be a boy lead movement, why don't boys have control over the national organization and program?" Well, there is some, but not as much as I would like to see it. Only the OA, Venturing & Sea Scouting have any youth at leadership roles above the local unit. In the OA, council-level lodges are run by youth elected by the youth. Lodges within Sections get together and elect (by the youth) youth to serve as Sectional officers. The Section Chiefs gather onces a year and elect amoung themselves the National Chief, National Vice-Chief, 4 Region Chiefs. Depending on what other National-level OA events are occuring, the other Section Chiefs will be elected to "Conference Vice-Chief" positions. In Venturing, some councils have VOAs (or the like), hopefully run by youth-elected youth. These VOAs are hopefully planning and running any council-level Venturing events. There is also 4 Regional Venturing Presidents and a National Venturing President, HOWEVER, these positions are appointed by adults. In some Regions, there may be Area-level Venturing groups. In Sea Scouts, some councils may have a Council Boatswain. But these may be either youth-elected or adult appointed. There may be Regional Boatswains, but are most likely adult appointed. The National Boatswain is adult appointed. These youth officers sit on the OA, Venturing, or Sea Scouting committees at those levels. I am not aware of them setting on the top committees of their particular levels. So the youth have some influence at the National level, but its limited to their particular program. I think in some countries that have some kind of 'national youth advisory committee' which gives input at the national levels.

"I honestly think that although the new 30% new staffers is a good thing, I can also see the need for -some- flexibility, especially in areas where you just can't hold the course often enough to provide a pool of new staffers or that there is just a general lack of available staffer to put on the course regularly." As previously noted, the guidelines do give exceptions for allowing a CD to be on staff again. Most councils nowadays will hold 1-2 courses a year. Most councils will have enough staff already developed that they will have lined up the next 2-3 CDs. Part of this is because a CD must staff a minimum number of courses AND in certain positions, you have to have this level of organization. Even in my home council in the past when they were doing courses every 3 years they only had 2-3 past CDs on staff. If a council can't pull this off, something is going wrong.

""But SL and the OMM concept should not be confused."" "I can't be the only one, because some Councils give out copies of his One Minute Manager at Wood Badge." Since the books cost about $15-20, I find this strange. We staff had a couple to pass around and read. I already had my own set of the 2 need. "The distinction may be moot because I have heard that the BSA is not going to renew its license with Blanchard. " So? The BSA is still using the concepts of SL & TDM/TLM in the OA's National Leadership Seminar, National Youth Leader Training and Wood Badge. the concepts are not copyrighted. What is copyrighted are the TERMS used. By BSA coming up with their own terms (first rolled out in NYLT), they can stop with the licensing. Same is true in my Fraternity. We use SL & TDM/TLM but without the Blanchard OR Hersey terms. We DO site our source for such information.

"I've talked with people who say that they got as much from a week at National Camp School as they did at Wood Badge, some Sea Scouters will claim that Sea Badge beats the pants off Wood Badge. "Other will say that they learn as much from spending time with old time Scoutmasters. "I'm not going to say that they are wrong. "I do worry that at times we hold Wood Badge up as the be all and end all of all training's. This can be a mistake. It is just a course." I agree. There are some out there that try to make WB to be that 'be all end all' course. And some get pissed because its not the advanced scoutcraft/leadership course they think it should be. As you noted, there are other 'advanced' courses out there. They are excellent courses at what they do. They do not take away from WB, or 'compete' with WB, because their focus is different. National Camping School is aimed at those provided program at our summer camps. Sea Badge is the advanced course for Sea Scout leaders. Having been to it as well, I can say that it doesn't 'beat the pants' off WB in terms of leadership, but for providing advanced information on the Sea Scout program, nothing else comes close. There is also Powder Horn, which is the High Adventure Resource course for Venturing AND Boy Scout leaders. I wish there was an official 'advanced scoutcraft skills' course out there. But you know, there is NOTHING stopping some scouters to make it happen at the local level and having National adopt it. Stop whinning and complaining about WB not doing it, and come up with a new course.

""Are you confusing Situational Leadership & Team Development Model/Team Leadership Model for OMM? "Perhaps. It was my understanding that Situational Leadership was first introduced by Ken Blanchard in the One Minute Manager series, and that the BSA pays a royalty to Blanchard for its use in Wood Badge." Nope. A little history on Situational Leadership (SL). SL was developed by Paul Hersey & Ken Blanchard back in the 1960. This was put forth in their book "Management of Organizational Behavior: Leading Human Resources" (now in its 8th edition in 2000). Each of them would go their own direction with SL. Paul Hersey formed his "Center for Leadership Studies", which provides SL training. Ken Blanchard started his own company, and extended SL as "SLII". He would co-author "Leadership and the OMM" in the OMM series as a general introduction to SLII. But SL and the OMM concept should not be confused. Blanchard has since extended SL to apply to teams (which he calls "Highly Performing Teams" and introduced in "The OMM Builds Highly Performing Teams") and to individuals (in "Self Leadership and the OMM"). Blanchard's company provides training in SLII, HPT, Situational Self Leadership and the like. ""He only relutantly gave in for countries like France who have different associations broken down by religious background. "Scouting is divided by religious background in the United States as well." Not like it is in France, when there are separate scouting associations for Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and other religious groups. In the US, ALL these groups are part of the BSA. "The BSA has declared itself to be a religious organization, and it describes itself as "faith-based," the code word often used by fundamentalist Christians who advocate discrimination along the same lines as the BSA." And the BSA is wrong to do this. "To join the BSA you must also sign a religious statement affirming the god named "God" as the ruling and leading power in the universe and that the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings is necessary for the "best type of citizenship." If you refuse because your religious background leads you to reject these religious values as repugnant, then currently our government establishes religion with the power to bar you from Scouting." Such an intepretation is incorrect, and I feel WOSM backs me on this. ALL scouts must subscribe to some religious belief. What that belief is up to the scout to decide. There is no list of approved religions, and just looking at the list of those that have BSA-approved religious awards includes several that DON'T use the term "GOD". People who get worked up about this on both sides of the issue are wrong.

"When Cisco was around, did he also bring Pancho?" Ha Ha. Actually, I meant Crisco, but was more thinking about Cisco, the networking equipment company, as opposed to the Cisco Kid.

One thing I have to ask is 'are they trained'? Have they gone thru Troop Committee Training, etc. Some of the problems may be due to their not understanding how things work. I also see an issue with what sounds like some going off and 'doing their own thing'. This may be solved by them learning (and understanding) what their job is verses your job.

"Wonder when the scouts mothers bought any lard around here, this updating thing may make some sense." We bought Cisco for campouts when I was a scout.

"Combining the two courses is probably common, but in some Scouting associations you can take just the Theoretical course and be awarded the one bead Wood Badge. Do you know of any other country in the world that has traded the Wood Badge outdoor skills for The One Minute Manager? " Maybe in some countries they do it that way, doesn't mean we have to. I DO feel that participants who complete the theortical part of the course get something more substantial then to just wear the participant neckerchief. All I got was a pocket card. The people on the course I staffed didn't get that, AFAIK (and they should have). At most they got the special course coin. Currently in the UK they give them a pin to wear. Also, as far as I can see, we did not trade outdoor skills for the One Minute Manager (OMM). I'm familiar with the OMM. Have a copy at my desk at work. I do not see any elements from the OMM in WB. Are you confusing Situational Leadership & Team Development Model/Team Leadership Model for OMM? They aren't the same. SL, TDM/TLM are widely used leadership concepts used by both companies and non-profits. (my fraternity uses them in our leadership development programs as well). ""Things are not static. Things change. And not all changes are wrong." "The only "wrong" I am working to correct is the lack of choice Americans have in Scouting. " Sorry, but AFAIK, B-P himself wanted only ONE Scout Association per country. He only relutantly gave in for countries like France who have different associations broken down by religious background. I have NEVER felt that having more then one scouting association was a good thing. I have my issues with the BSA, but I don't agree that setting up so-called 'traditional scouting' programs that want to ignore 100 years of development in camping, psychology, social change, leadership, etc, is a good thing. And I have to think that B-P would agree. If someone wants to do a more traditional scouting program, they can doing it with the BSA.

"It is obvious you did not read or understand my website. The stats were from the BSA's own website 2005 v 2004, not from "a few observations you have made." It is about as "scientific" as it gets.. actual enrolment numbers direct from the BSA in Irving Texas." brianbuf- No one is disputing the numbers. The point that campcraft was making (and which I have made) is *have you identified the cause*? You can't come up with a solution until you know what the cause is. And several of us don't believe you have done so. I myself tried to get a discussion going on one of the Venturing lists regarding the CAUSES (ie, not coming up with solutions per say) as to the drop in Venturing numbers. Which I know that people at the National level ARE looking at. So please don't assume we are ignoring the drop in numbers. Its being address at several layers. Most of us feel the solution is delivering the promise of scouting. Too many units fail to do so. This is why many of them go under (or at best, just lose membership). Just changing elements you think is outdated/dorky isn't the right approach. I can tell you as a former scout, it was the adventure of scouting that kept me in. Not wanting to wear my uniform to school or wear a neckerchief or not liking the socks were not reasons for missing out on the great times I had in scouting. I earned the merit badges I wanted to earn. "Look at men's fraternal oraganizations, they are not what they used to be either. Do you think it is becasue they have dorky meetings at restaurants or silly names like Elks, Lions and Kiwanis ( what does that word mean?)" I have no idea about those groups, but I can tell you that there has been recent discussion in the Toastmasters magazine about changing the name of the organization. TM is a group of men and women dedicated to improving their abilities as public speakers and leaders, but the term 'toastmaster' bring to mind other concepts. So some feel we should change the name to increase our numbers.