emb021

HEY! You're just going to scare the kids away making us sing nursery songs!

I've heard it say that "tradition is when we've forgotten why we do something". There is a reason why we doing things. Too often that's forgotten and good things get turned into bad things because people forgot (or don't try to find out) why we doing certain things. Sometimes the things we call 'hazing' started out as good things for good reasons, but the reasons are soon forget and things get out of hand, and so must end. I'm also reminded of a recent book called "Last Child in the Wilderness". One of the National venturing guys was reading it at a training event I attended. The author looks into what he called "nature deficite disorder", which he descripes as the urbanization of children who have lost touch with nature. Something that they can rediscover thru programs like scouting. I haven't gotten the book yet, but its now out in paperback. I think they mentioned it in a recent issue of Scouting magazine, but I think it deserves a larger book review there.

"I would love to see our council have a one day class that is just scout skills.... Kind of a piece of the outdoor skills with out all the patrol stuff. We could get people to take that course... then maybe ease them into the outdoor... then WB.... you know... hook them and reel them in **smile**. " It can be done. Back in the 70s and 80s we had an event called "Show'n'Do" with this purpose in mind. You can also use the set of Outdoor Skills Instruction syllabi to put something together. Also, some council add a lot of outdoor skill classes to their University of Scouting event. Dutch Oven cooking, camp gear, backpacking, etc. As I noted, my home council has added an entire "Advanced Field Operation" section of courses to their University of Scouting Arts event consisting of Backpacking & Hiking (3 hours), Pioneering (3 hours), and Leave No Trace (2 hours).

"So if the new WB is suppose to be leadership training... and for people that don't interact one on one with the boys and camp....and doesn't include scout craft... (like knots, first aid, backpacking etc) then I took the old WB and I want credit for doing it!!!" Uh, I took BSLWB, which was leadership training + scoutcraft skills. I got credit for taking it because I earned my beads. "I wish they did have a separate scout craft training." Its called Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills. Your council should be offering it. "It would be a good training to do every other year. Shoot, do youth protection one year and scout craft the next." Nothing stops your council from creating new courses. YPT is given on-line, btw. "It could even be part of the camporee and be something the adults could be doing while the boys are doing their thing! It should be offered at summer camp for the adults that are there (our camp did offer postition spacific training this year)." Ask your council to do that. Many councils do University of Scouting events. My home council recently added an outdoor skills component.

Kudu- Your description of the awarding of WB beads (which I am familiar with), AFAIK, only occured during the early years of WB, and was soon replaced with the method that we are familiar with today: receiving 2 beads upon the completion of your ticket, which was the practical application of what was learned in the course. (and afaik, BP was alive when this change was made) Things are not static. Things change. And not all changes are wrong. BP's first idea was to wear the beads on your hat. He himself, changed this. The Scouting Milestones site has a good page on the history and development of WB.

"I have noticed that the troops in our area with an active program - going somewhere AT LEAST once a month and interesting activities during weekly meetings - those are the troops that are doing well with recruitment and retention. " That, to me, the basics for all troops. weekly meetings and one camping trip a month, plus atleast a week at summer camp. When my troop was in trouble with numbers, etc, we STILL made sure we camped once a month & did summer camp. When we couldn't camp due to mosquito issues (banned in our state a few times), we STILL did something that month as a day trip. When I hear of troops that aren't doing at least that, there is a problem troop.

""Standing around singing squirrel" Sorry, what do you mean by this? "really don't know this one? When you lose something you have to sing this silly song to get your stuff back... heard it in many troops." In my area, we don't call it that. Its up to troops to have such a tradition, and some might not. Its NOT part of the scouting program (ie there is nothing in the SM handbook or any training that says we are to do it). Some camps do it (mine did), but we did not call it that. My troop never did it. The point is to make the kids responsible for their stuff, as oppose to leaving it around, thinking that mommie will pick up after him. ""Take a look at Venturing. "Sitting around a campfire singing nursery rhymes" Sorry, but I don't recall learning ANY of the campfire songs in nursery school. "Boy, we must being going to different camps and Woodbadges. That "2nd story window" song.. haven't you hear it... full of nursery ryhme stories... look in the Woodbadge song book. "the window, the window, the 2nd story window..."" Yes, prehaps so. I don't recall this song you mention. Not in my WB song book. And as a I said, all the campfire songs I am familiar with I learned in scouting, not nursery school. And many of them are traditional, widely used campsong (ie not just at boy scout camp, but at chuch camps, private camps, world wide, etc) ""Then its up to the adults to introduce these characters so the Cub Scouts can understand them. Tossing them out is not the solution. And updating them to recent 'flash in the pan' characters who are do not match up is silly. There are no characters in Ice Age that matches to Akela. "Superman has been around and "cool" for 50 plus years. That is not my idea to use him, but just an example." No, Superman has not been 'cool' for 50+ years. I collect and read comic books. He's also a copyrighted character. ""Neckerchiefs are a traditional scouting item world wide. "I don't think so. I spoke to someone who attended the last worldwide Jamboree and some class A's were tie dye t-shirts! And look at the link on my website to the ad about scouting.. showing it "cool" and appealing! Not one single neckerchief that I could see! You can wear mine for me.. and my "turks head" woggle. (I am conservative, anti-9-11, but turks head, come on!)" Yes, they are. Someone else answered this. If you go to Kanderstag, ALL the staff are known by their pink neckers. Also, its called a "turks head" knot because that is its name. We are NOT going to change the name of a knot because of a single event. And I don't wear neckerchiefs. Too hot down here. the only time I've worn neckerchiefs in the last couple of decades have been when I've been required to, and that's only been my wood badge ones. "It is this : What would YOU suggest be done differently to grow scouting, not lose 10.9% of venturing in a single year. The same things are not working when 1 out of 20 units completely close down in a single year. What things would YOU post on a website as things that would revitalize scouting? As the new president said, to "make scouting relevant in the lives of boys today" (or something like that)." I would first not assume that the problem is with the scouting program and making it more relevant. You need to find what the root cause is. Have you done so? There may be many causes, and they may not be related to program issues. Someone failing to implement the program properly is not a failing of the program. Many units fail because the program is not being use correctly. Sometimes there are adult issues involved. You can't solve a problem unless you know the cause. I don't think you know what it is. Oh, and you mentioned "Pulp and Paper" merit badge, as an example of an 'irrelavent merit badge'. Well, per the stats at National (Merit Badge Program Fact Sheet: http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-500.html), 2878 Pulp and Paper Merit Badges were earned last year. Beating out Plant Science, Veterinary Science, Surveying, Stamp Collecting, Theatre, Fly Fishing, and several others. The smallest number earned was American Business at 541. And we all know how irrelavent that topic is. I am 'short on ideas' because I just do not agree with your premise. I have my issues with scouting, but nothing like yours. I wonder what some of our more traditionalists will say about your ideas.

I was at an OA ceremony (believe it was a Vigil Tap out), and they played the soundtrack to "Dances with Wolves". Doing so really made the ceremony more meaningful, at least for me.

"Baden-Powell awarded one Wood Bead for his Theoretical course and one Wood Bead for what he called the "Practical" outdoor course. The BSA awards two Wood Beads for theory." No. The BSA awards two Wood Beads for completing your practical, AKA, your ticket. The course is the theory, the ticket is the practical.

Actually, the BSA does that currently. Many changes in the program, etc. are tested at the local level for up to 2 years. Varsity Scouting was tested for almost four years before it was rolled out as a National program. The change in the office and rank patches from the very colorful backgrounds from the 1970s were changed in 1989 to the tan background after testing them, etc. Many kids prefered that to the more colorful versions. But I also know of kids who wanted to keep the colorful versions. Can't please them all.

I've looked over your site and I think you need to re-think things. While I will not dispute the number drop, you're ideas of the causes (and their solutions) needs some work. You're so called Myths. Uh, yes, many boys when they reach the age of 15 or so are lost to other interestes: job, cars, girls, etc. This is why the BSA has worked for decades on programs that will appeal to that age bracket, the latest of which is Venturing. "Standing around singing squirrel" Sorry, what do you mean by this? "participating in cheers and chants does not appeal to most of the older boys". Oh? And what do kids do at 'pep rallies' at school??? "The reality is that kids make time for what appeals to them. This tells us that there are too many things that appeal to kids more than scouting does. The solution is to update scouting to be appealing to todays kids without loosing the values or principles that make scouting great." Uh, true. Take a look at Venturing. "Sitting around a campfire singing nursery rhymes" Sorry, but I don't recall learning ANY of the campfire songs in nursery school. Personally, I'm not big on sings, but I recall some fun I had AS AN ADULT, singing some of those old songs. "We have trained leaders. Each year hundreds of new leaders get trained. " Actually, what we have are people who AREN'T trained because they think they know it all and don't need it, as well as those who have gone thru training, but didn't learn anything. And we have some who ARE trained, and put that training to use and have successful units. As to "Your Ideas" "It starts with Cub Scouts with references to characters in the Jungle Book. Most Cub scouts look blankly when they hear of Akela for the first time." Then its up to the adults to introduce these characters so the Cub Scouts can understand them. Tossing them out is not the solution. And updating them to recent 'flash in the pan' characters who are do not match up is silly. There are no characters in Ice Age that matches to Akela. "And the animals as patrol names. The Bobtails, the Moose, etc. How many sports teams or other groups would attract young folks using names like these? Imagine the NFL opener as the New York Bobtails vs. the Miami Moose. I don't think so!" There are a WIDE range of patrol names available to the kids, and NOTHING stopping them from coming up with their own. My patrol as a kid was the Shark Patrol. BSA didn't come up with a patrol patch for that until decades later. But that never stopped us. Oh, never heard of the Chicago Bulls or the Chicago Bears. And I know of a small college whose mascot, DEMANDED by the students, is a banana slug! "For adults, at Wood badge we had to determine our patrols Totem. Again, using 1910 references sometimes alienates younger folks. Why not modernize terms and call it a mascot or team name or icon? " Why not educate them in what a totem is? Hint, its a little more hten a mascot or icon. "And the Gillwill song, how does that start again? (Is there a beaver in the house?) " Uh, that's not how the Gilwell song goes. And you mispelled Gilwell. "Wood badge we spent over 2 hours singing about working our tickets as we can. Again, a reference to 1910 British army transfers." And your point is? This is relavent how? "Update the Uniform. We need a uniform. That is what makes scouts special. But it needs to be a new, affordable, in style uniform! Out of style pants and shirts, colored neckerchiefs and patches." Neckerchiefs are a traditional scouting item world wide. There are scouts in many countries whose only uniform is that neckerchief. And there is nothing stopping your troop from NOT wearing one. I have my issues with the uniform, but I see no concrete ideas in what you state. As to updating the merit badges, 'pulp & paper' would be dropped if few were earning them. If you think new merit badges are relavent, get to work on them. We just got a new one in composite materials. But 'cool merit badges' aren't going to attract & retain kids. My advise is that you really need to rethink your ideas. What little good ideas are overshadowed by some that are just bad. By biggest advise is learn more about scouting, its history, and its traditionals. You seem to have NO respect for any kind of tradition, which is sad.

"THe training is suppose to be standard. But I know that there were people in our WB that didn't have the training. Shoot one of the guy's tickets is to take his position training!" As someone else noted, AFAIK, its standard across the board that one must have completed basic training for your particular position. Now, one thing I found on the course I staffed was that some scouters were taking WB in between switching their positions. Many were coming to WB as fully trained cub scouters, but planned on moving over to boy scouting within the next 3-4 months, which means that one of their ticket items was to take the new training for their new positions (I also know of some that got asked to be unit commissioners, etc, due to their involvement at WB). Personally, I would have preferred these 'transitional scouters' to wait a bit in their new (and probably more long-term position) before taking WB, but that's only a recommendation.

"The obstacles as I see them are: " "1. Around here the second WB weekend is always labor day, which doesn't work well. (I realize this is a tough one to get around) " I assume by this that in your council they do WB such that the second weekend is on labor day weekend. In most councils, they seem to schedule their WB courses around the same time each year. The thing is, if that doesn't work for YOU (or other Scouts), and you can't get your council to consider a change DO WB IN ANOTHER COUNCIL. Its no big deal. Find out the WB schedule in the surrounding councils. On the course I was staffing, we had someone from a nearby council coming, who was supposed to be in the patrol I was guiding. He didn't show up, never found out why (he had paid, etc). There can be some logistics issues, and I don't know how you handle the ticket, but it is done. In fact, there exist WB courses that will draw from an entire Region for specific ethnic groups (certain asian cultures) or religious groups (kosher WB). "We had a young man that had just gotten his Eagle and turned 18 in our WB patrol. That was way too young IMO. He didn't pay a lot of attention to the programs. I think he felt like as an Eagle he knew it all." I would have to agree. Having gone from a scout to a scouter at age 18, I don't think I would have been prepared for WB. I know of several fellow scouts who are Eagles at that time that took the attitude that 'I'm an Eagle, what do I need WB for?' which I think is bad. There is a difference between being an Eagle Scout scout and being a scout leader. "I agree that the person should be in scouting for about 2 years and very involved before WB." Not quite what I said. I said they should do WB, at a minimum, DURING their second year. By that time they've gotten basic training under their belt, hopefully done a year's worth of scouting events (scout show, summer camp, etc), several roundtables, camporee, etc. They've put into pratice the training they got, been exposed to scouting thru events like scout show, etc (cubs, boy, venturing, etc). At that point, the're ready for the next step. (This message has been edited by emb021)

"Each Region is only sending one Crew of 36 youth members and all Venturers must be under 18. " The Southern Region is sending 2 crews. I have no idea about the other 3. What I have been hearing is that in the SR, the troops are pretty much all full. The crews aren't. There is concern that boys that didn't get into a troop will full up the crew as Venturers.

Background: I attended Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge in 1988, and staffed Wood Badge for the 21st Century in 2004. As others have pointed out, there have been several "old" WB courses. Originally (1950s), WB was a course for council-level trainers, as you could only attend it at Schiff or Philmont. Also, during the 1950s there was Explorer WB, as the Explorer program was more of an advanced BS program then it later became. In the 1960s, WB was finally made available to Scoutmasters and those scouters supporting troop ops, from either council or cluster-council courses. In the 1970s, leadership skills were added. Further revisions produced the 1980s course which balanced scoutcraft skills and leadership skills. Also, about this time Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge was developed, then Varsity Scout Wood Badge. Explorer leaders, left out of WB, developed Explorer Leader Institute, and Sea Scout leaders developed Sea Badge. (I should note that Cub Scout Trainer WB was NOT for Pack-level leaders, but for council-level Cub Scout Trainers, and was given at the Regional levels). There was a minor revision the 1990s, adding in Ethics in Action and the concept of 'teach them, trust them, let them lead' or something like that. 21st Centuary WB was rolled out in 2001, for ALL scout leaders, eliminating BSLWB, CSTWB, and VSWB, or the need for ELI. Sea Badge still exists, btw. Now, there have been a lot of changes, big and small, good and bad. Some of the changes have been on the back end, in how the staff is dealt with, etc. Participants don't know this, but in the old days, by policy, it was very hard to get on staff. local council policies could either make this easier or harder. Plus, staff had to do a ticket to earn their third bead. Now, courses are mandated to have 1/4 of its staff be new. And once you are a CD, you're out. No more 4 beaders continuing to run courses and preventing others from being CD. Some of the changes have been due to the audience. WB is no longer aimed solely at Boy Scout leaders. they have Cub Scout and Venturing people. Hence the incorporate of Cub Scouting stuff at the begining and Venturing toward the end. Because not many Cub Scouts are strong in scoutcraft skills (true for some Venturing people), you can't emphasis this as much as in the past. Leadership skills are the focus, and leadership development has been brought up to date with the current thinking on both leadership and teamwork. Much of the traditions of WB have been kept (song, wb patrols, beads, etc). I have my issues with how they revised it, but I'm not a 'hater' of it like some of the 'old guard' are. I staffed a course and would like to staff again. Hope this helps.

A couple of comments. Some councils may have Wood Badge Scholarships to help people attend their WB courses. Mine does (it gets funded out of our annual WB Breakfasts and stuff we sell there). I also have to agree with Eagle-pete's comments. I think that too often people are encouraged to attend WB too soon. I personally feel that for a new scouter they should: * get fast start within a week or two of joining (which on-line and video delivery, this should be easy). * get basic training within a couple of months. (most councils will have courses in both fall and spring, in different districts, so if its not available in your district in a timely fashion, go to another). * attend WB AFTER getting your basic training under your belt AND some experience. I personally feel one should be attending WB during their 2nd year as a scouter. At a minimum, 6-9 months after starting. I found it a little annoying when I was staffing a course how many people were ignorant of what I felt were basics of Scouting (ie, had never heard of: Venturing, OA, Jamboree, etc). My view on training is that it should be: training, put into practice, more training, put into practice, repeat. too many think its: do all your training, put into practice, end.

So am I correct in thinking that the number of GS councils will now be reduced to 100 or so? Over what period of time?

"I think that they are using the old way and not the new way." That's what it sounds like to me. (BTW, I went thru BSLWB back in 88, and staffed WB21C in 2004, just so you understand I am familiar with both. there has been a new revision to WB21C, but I don't fully know what changed) "We had to do all our own cooking the last weekend." Yes. That's normal. First weekend the staff cooks for you, 2nd the patrols cook on their own, and have a couple of staffers at most (but not all) of the meals. "We had meal evaluations and site evaluations, but we didn't get any feedback until it was too late to improve." I don't recall any such evals, but I could just be forgetting. "We had a hike Saturday night to a campsite where we had to use orienteering to get there." Hmmm, don't know the purpose of that. I don't recall that in the syllabus. "During the presentations we were never given more than 5-10 minutes for potty breaks and drink breaks. It became a joke that when they finally gave us time for the potty they put us in a place where there wasn't one!!!" Well, I seem to recall that we made sure to give breaks at appropriate times. And there was always a potty near by, so that was never a problem. Again, sounds like bad logistics. "During the sessions we were often told not to take notes since it would slow the session down.... I did read the web site about learning involves listening, taking notes and applying... hummm... should I send that on to the CD???" Hoo boy. I never recalled us saying something like that, and we tried to give out ample handouts. I know that on my original WB course our TG told us that and I was shocked. "The TG and TC are not the same people. My patrol has 6 different TC. It will make it harder to continue to work as a group, but not impossible. I would love to see something that discribes how the new course should be." They should be one and the same. We organized the patrols so that the members would be nearby. Not necessarily in the same district, but close enough. Plus the TGs were assigned for the same reason. "During one of the sessions, they asked us what could be done to increase training participation. They said that they will now be evaluated as a council on training. My comment was if you keep doing the same thing time after time and get the same results, why would you think that doing it the same way one more time will give you different results?!?" There is a quote by, I think Einstein, who said that "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"... "The biggest complaint I've heard from people is that the info is great but the piddly stuff is frustrating. I didn't want to go to WB as it was described to me until I heard that the "NEW WB" was so much less frustrating... I still think it is odd that we did not get an evaluation form!" Having done old and new, a lot of stuff has changed. Some for the better, some not so. But each person is different as to what they think is piddly stuff... "I actually have an e-mail from my CD saying that she took an oath to follow the syllabus and that is what she is doing.. of course she didn't specify WHICH syllabus **smile**. " Yes, they do. And I think I can say that the CDs in my council walks the talk. "My husband said that probably some of the council has been reading my posts. Being a good scout, I wouldn't say anything here that I wouldn't and haven't said to them." Undetstandable. "As a matter of fact, some of these comments is what made the CD send us an e-mail calling us the whiny bears... (helpful, friendly, courtious, kind... ) and another saying we were irritating." Bad form... "Oh, and I talked to the council person that is in charge of the WB course.... better to talk to a brick wall. He thinks I just want the cd punished.... NO (What do you want?) I want the course to be improved so the frustration factor is cut." Always a problem. You complain because you are unhappy and want things to change, but others only think you're a complainer and ignore your legitamate issues. Been there, done that, got a kick in the seat of my pants instead of a t-shirt.

"You know feedback is a gift (It truly is!!) but only if it is timely. We didn't get any meal or site evaluation until Noon on Saturday so we couldn't even use the evaluation to improve! We did just fine so that isn't the issue. But again, walk the walk!!! " Uh, don't understand this. Did you not get breakfast? This is strange. "One of the last things they had us do was to leave the training area and be told by the SPL "Follow me".... okay... we walked about a mile, up hill, down... and 3 people had problems with walking distances. One man had a cane. But heaven forbid they change any of their plans do to someone elses limitations.... Hummm can we all say diversity together? When I got back from the hike, I was quite ill. My ticket COuncilor came to talk to me. I told him that the hike was just cruel. He appoligized. He realized that they knew there were people with limits and they didn't think about it. He said he will bring it up to the group. THe man with the can talked to the SPL and she also said they just didn't think but that was the way the CD wanted it." Uh, what's up with this hike? There is nothing in the syllabus for this. And to not be mindful of the participants ability is strange. On my course we knew we had a few people (include one of the staffers) who can't walk well, so we had a gold cart for that. I know they had a hike during the end of the old course, but nothing in the new. "At least I really like my Ticket councelor. He was the first one to notice when I was frustrated (before my own TG did) and he helped me more than once! I can't wait to get to work on my tickets!" Again, this is strange. Your Troop Guide is supposed to be your Ticket Councelor. These positions are no longer separate, as they were in the old course. As TG I was the ticket counselor for all the members in the patrol I guided. Some of the things you've mentioned makes me wonder if your council is fully using the WB21st syllabus, or if they are still using somethings from the old course.

"Do they usually have a course evaluation? Does it go to national? I've heard conflicting info on this. We didn't have an evaluation so far. May be it comes in the mail?" On the course I staffed, we did evaluations on the last day. I know that many of us on staff reviewed them. I have no idea if they go to National. I guess if the info deals with the syllabus they might.

"Studio 2B - This crazy thing was never "supposed" to be a GS level. It is a type of programing for "Girl Scouts 11-17". Since GSUSA has dumped tons of $$ into this, I doubt it will be scrapped. It will most likely be part (all? ) of the programing for Cadette, Senior & Ambassador Girl Scouts." really? The whole program wasn't clear to me as to whether it was an alternate program for GS 11-17 or the new/replacement program for Girl 11-17.

First off, scoutmom11- a CD can be CD only ONCE. So you need not worry about your present CD being involved with a future course. Most councils have already decided the next 2-3 CDs. And each WB course MUST have a percentage of newbies on staff (25% or 30%, I think). So its usually pretty easy for good, new people to get on staff. Find out who the next couple of CDs will be. If there is one of them you really like, that's the one you'll want to be on staff with. Eamonn makes some good points. I was picked in October to be on staff for a course starting in Feb. Every month we had a half day meeting to review the syllabus and practice our sessions. EVERYONE was involved in at least one training session. All TG had to do their 2-3 with their patrol. The month before the course began, we did a shake down weekend. Then we all had to be at camp the day before the course both weekends. Us newbie staffers got our third bead the night before the course began. Yes, its a lot of work and very exhausting. But if you have a good staff and everyone works together, it can be a great experience. If you get an experience to be on staff, do so. I've only done it once. I had to turn down a second opportunity due to person issues. pluses & minues? Minus- exhausting, lot of time spent, maybe monetary cost, may had issue/problems to deal with (we had a couple of problem participants on my course) Pluses- get to meet a lot of great people, both participants & staff, a lot of great people get to met you, you learn more from stuff.

A couple of questions: How does Studio2B fit in this? Will it still exist, or go away? How does Campus GS fit into this?

"The worse cost was when we were told to make gifts for up to 4 guests per meal at 4 meals, plus the flag, plus the new name tags, plus embellishments for others, plus a centerpiece, plus making a miniture flag for our SM, plus gift for the staff, plus the cost of our patrol project, plus the cost of our conservation project" Be aware that none of these costs are mandated by the course syllabus. This is all stuff mandated by your local council and its WB traditions. I can tell you that on the course I staffed that we: * left it up to the partrol to have or not have gifty items for staff. Those that did, all were inexpensive little doodads, and I was fine with that. * There were only 2 guests with each patrol at meals, not 4. * name tag was part of the course materials, and most people WANT them because they are special leather WB nametags. * patrol projects were all inexpensive, consisting of poster boards and the like. * there was no cost for the conservation project. * the centerpieces was left to the patrols to make or not. * no idea about the flas you mention.

"Profit margins? I believe we are a non-profit organization." yes, but that means that we don't turn over our profit to, say, stockholders or the like. Any profit stays within the organization. An org must be financially sound. It must at least operate in the black (break even or 'make a profit'), and not be in the red (lose money).