emb021

This is why you can purchase additional ones.

"Yep...on the Scouting.org site it says 2 years tenure for the Training Award, 3 for the keys. emb....what's up with that?" That's what happens when you go from memory. Thought it was 3 years tenure for each. I do know that if you're a Key leader, you receive the training awards after 2 years, then can get the Key after the third year. "The www.seascout.org site is privately owned and operated with the blessing of the national peoples. Great site, but I'd take nothing from there as gospel." Uh, it's operated BY the National people. AFAIK main guy running it is a member of the National Committee. Not sure about all the regional subpages, but can tell you the Southern Region section is managed by the Southern Region commodore. So, IMO, that makes it 'gospel'. The site is pretty much THE source of info as to things such as Seabadge and SEAL courses, etc.

Boy Scouts of America National Supply Group P.O. Box 7143, Charlotte, NC 28241-7143 1-800-323-0736 http://www.scoutstuff.org

"Also, just because it is a National Shop, does not mean the shop employees are any more knowledgeable." Sadly, true. I happened to stop by my local National Scout Shop, when a scouters involved with Venturing was buying items for a Venturing uniform. He had picked up the "Venture" strip and was asking the employee where it went. They didn't know that strip had nothing to do with Venturing. Thankfully, I stepped in and straightened things out.

"The biggest thing I have against SEAL is the seamanship requirements." Because of the way the course is run, the seamanship requirements are a must. The participants are the ones sailing/piloting the boat, not the staff. The participants are not just passengers. "I dont even know if allowing more councils to offer SEAL is going to help as most councils dont have the necessary equipment (a large enough boat) to even run a SEAL course." Councils don't offer SEAL. It's offered only at the Regional level. AFAIK, the equipment needs are a big reason why there aren't that many courses and its done at the regional level. The National Sea Scout Committee controls both Seabadge and SEAL, fwiw.

The forms that Argyle posted are the same forms on the Sea Scout website.

Am a little confused as to who are the members of the crew. A crew must have atleast 5 youth members between the ages of 14 and 21. It almost sounds like the crew is made up of senior citizens.

"I have a Kodiak syllabus, but the SEAL syllabus is nowhere to be found." Because the National Sea Scout Committee will only give the SEAL syllabus to SEAL CDs. "If this course is so "top flight" and the resulting leadership training so fantastic, then why isn't the leadership shouting from the mountaintops? We're having Powder Horn Course Director Conferences, we're holding Kodiak Course Director Conferences, why aren't the regions and national holding SEAL Course Director Conferences and promoting it and holding courses?" The National Sea Scout Committee is keeping a tight reign on SEAL courses. Why? Don't know. Would have to think they want to ensure quality. There are no SEAL CDCs. That's not how staff development is done. Instead, to be a future CD, you work on a SEAL course to get your 'creds'.

AFAIK, the forms on the Sea Scout website are official. 3 years is the norm for both the Scouter's Key and Scouter's Training award, regardless of if its for the Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, Venturing or Sea Scout programs.

A waterborne Kodiak course is quite doable. I am aware of Kodiak courses being done on Sea Kayak trips, whitewater rafting trips, am sure it could be done on long canoe trips, so why not a long cruise? So long as you have about 2.5 hours a day for the material, it can be done. While I am not a SEAL instructor, I've talked with our local SEAL CD several times, and have a decent familiarity with the course. Your comments show you really don't understand how the course operates. Yes, SEAL *is* a leadership development course, not a seamanship course. Due to the fact that the ENTIRE course is run 'under sail', with the participates being responsible for sailing, navigating, etc the boat (each day the duties rotate) its VERY important that the participants come to the course ALREADY knowledgable about Ch 2 of the SSM. SEAL is NOT the place to learn this material, which is why SEAL is NOT a seamanship course. Hence the need for the exams and like. There are only a limited number of SEAL courses a year (see below), and so its vital that those Sea Scouts who are truly prepared (completing SEAL and earning the SEAL pin is NOT automatic or a given) are the ones who get selected. I don't know about the reasons for the upper age limit on SEAL, other then I suspect that a big purpose of the SEAL course is to train Sea Scouts who will return to their Ships and pass on what they learn, and prehaps the concern is that the older Sea Scouts are more likely 'on their way out' of the program, then to pass on what they learned in their Ships. (ie, it should be 'one more thing I get before I age out' kind of thing). Maybe Sea Scout leaders with more insite can add to this. Another thing to keep in mind about SEAL is that it is a National Course provided thru approved Regional level courses. There are no more then 5-6 course a year, due to the resources needed (qualified CDs, boats, etc). In comparison, Kodiak, while being a National course, can be put on by a crew/ship themselves (tho I highly recommend that at least one adult involved have gone thru a regional Kodiak/Kodiak X CDC).

Gunny said: "Rule 1 - Never do ANYTHING a Scout can do. Rule 2 - Get Trained - then train the Scouts Rule 3 - See rule 1." There used to be a phrase used in WB back in the 90s that has since disappeared that I think is important: Teach Them, Train Them, Let Them Lead. At one of my (then) council's WB course, they even made pocket patches with stylized TTTTLTL on them, done in interlocked logs. Not sure why this phrase dropped out of favor, but think its a propriate here.

building on what AvidSM said, I would also say 'it depends'. An issue I've seen with some young scouters who were previous scouts (especially those who are Eagle Scouts and were very active) is their attitude. Since they have earned Eagle, and usually already attending programs like NLS, NYLT and the like, they take the view that their is nothing that WB can teach them. If they do take the course, they usually will get nothing out of it, because their attitude precluded them from getting anything from it. I have found that if you go in with an open attitude of wanting to learn (something, anything), you will, whether its a new perspective on something you had seen in another course, or the discussions with other leaders (many overlook the values gained in 'hallway discussions' at conferences and the like).

I think for most of us, we are more interested in that people are wearing the right thing in the right place. My view has always been that items like belts, hats, neckwear (neckerchief, bolo tie, etc), are pretty much up to the individual. There may be times to wear certain things (I have about 3 different hats I wear at different times depending on what program I am working with). Personally, I never carried for neckerchiefs. I started wearing bolo ties as a scout, and wore a Southeast Region one I got at the 81 jamboree for years until I got my beads. Now I wear those.

Take a look at the Daniel Carter Beard Masonic Scouter Award. This may give you some ideas on the kinds of service your lodge can do for scouting (the Masonic Scouter Award is a BSA-approved 'community organization award').

"Wnen you say that parents are "running the show" in Boy Scouts or Venturing, do you mean patrol meetingn, Troop meetings. activities and outings? Do you see this as a feature of the Scouting program, or as a probelm of leadership in the unit? " I see this as a problem of too many parents today, who feel they need to be involved with ALL aspects of thier childs life. Don't get me wrong. There is a time for parent-child interaction/activity. BUT, there should also be time for junior to be able to do things WITHOUT mommie or daddie. And too many parents don't seem to get it. A little tangential illustration. There is an excellent series of juvinile books called "Swallows and Amazons". They were published back in the 30s and 40s. They are set in England in the early 30s, and focus on a group of children in their early teens who go on camping trips/adventures without their parents. There are usually few adults who are along with their adventures, that those few who do, IMO act more like we would like our Crew Advisors do, then nagging parents. Its still a popular series, still in print. There is a large group of fans around the world. The point of this? I find it funny (or sad) that a great series that seems to celebrate, even avocate that young children should be trusted to be out on their own is used by many families as an inspiration to do parent-child activites!!! Something that is absent in the books! (it almost happened in one book, but the father got called back to active duty in the navy, the mother had to go along, so the kids went off on their own).

If it was a BSA WSJ item, it was 'made' by National Supply. They would be the source of finding out who made it for them. But I don't they've give out that info. AFAIK, get the catalogs from various suppliers of such hat/shirts, etc. You might find the same item in their catalogs of items you can order.

Getting back to the original post. A lodge should be able to achieve QL with 2 Ordeals a year. Most of the lodges in my state do so. Most lodges don't have more then 4 lodge events a year. Am not sure if its a national rule, but am fairly certain its a national recommendation. One is usually the formal lodge ordeal (one lodge, due to its size, conducts ordeal at the chapter level). Most lodges in my state have gone away from summer camp tap outs and august/sept ordeals, to tap outs at camporees and ordeals either in late fall or early spring. One reason for this is that in many of our councils, troops aren't attending their council camp. 2 councils no longer have summer camps! National rules forbid being tapped out OR going thru Ordeal with a lodge other then your council's. Due to the fact that some kids will miss out on ordeal to do things like school sports, etc, most lodges will have a second, smaller ordeal conducted as part of another lodge event. Most lodge weekends will include the Brotherhood ceremony. Most lodges have the Brotherhood conversion rate as a problem with achieving QL.

"How was it possible for the Lodge Adviser to change the dates of the Ordeal, and for the second Lodge Adviser to change them back? It's not up to the Lodge Adviser to make these decisions - its up to the Lodge Youth Leaders." That is true. If you have a 'youth-led lodge'. Just as you have issues between boy-led and adult-led troops, the same is true in OA lodge. Some are heavily adult run, others youth run/adult advised. "Is being a "Quality Lodge" a goal of the Youth Leadership or of the Adviser?" It should be the goal of both. In my area, most Lodges work toward QL, and I think few youth would not be behind it. "And who really cares what "Section" wants anyway. The Section is there to offer opportunities for fellowship and training - it has nothing to do with the operations of Lodges." Sections are more then just fellowship/training. In my Section, the Section officers visit all the lodges sometime during the year, work to help out the lodges, etc. This is, I think, the norm. So, yes, they do have something to do with the operations of the lodges, especially when it comes to helping ensure the lodges run properly. AFAIK, its part of their job! "A few years back, a young fellow couldn't go to his ordeal because he was ill, very ill. He was going to be spending the summer working at a camp where they did call outs and ordeals every week. I tried to get permission for him to do his ordeal at the camp. The Lodge Chief had no problem with it but one of the adult advisors said, "nope. no way. uh-uh. ain't gonna happen." And that was that." Not clear on this. Was the summer camp he was working at in his council, or was it an out of council camp? If the later, then the Lodge Adviser was correct: you are NOT allowed to complete your ordeal with another lodge. I am not aware of any situations where this is allowed. MOST lodges, if they are smart, have a 'make up' ordeal. This helps those who, for whatever reason, could not attend the first, regular ordeal. Pretty much all the Lodges in my section do this, because too often there is some conflict for some people with the regular ordeal and they miss it.

"Sadly, that usually isn't the case and most adults in OA are like the youth and do little other than pay their dues." Uh, we should be so lucky if these people paid their dues. Many are what we call 'sash and dash', get the sash and flap, put the flap on their uniform, then be involved in the lodge or even pay their dues.

"IF they are married, and one is over 21 and one under 21, then only one of them can be a member of the crew. " NOT TRUE. I had a face to face conversation with Bill Evans, the #2 guy of the Venturing division several years back about this topic, since it was one that had recently been a big discussion on-line. Marriage trumps the issue of 'fraternization'. If they are married, both can be involved. The issue of fraternization applies ONLY to those not married.

"He crosses over in Spring 2009" Not to be a wet blanket, but a newly crossed over Boy Scout may not be able to go to the 2010 NSJ. There are minimum age and rank requirements to go to Jamboree. Not sure what they are, but I think its 12/13 years old and 2nd or 1st Class. Furthermore, there will be a limited number of scouts who will be able to go, and your son will be competting against other boys in his council, many of whom will be older and more experienced. Best if he looks forward to the next NSJ which should be in 2014 (tho I've heard rumours it might be moved to 2013).

To piggyback off of Beavah's post, course like WFA and LNT can now be done with the BSA. The BSA has partnered with both Red Cross and LNT to make their courses more accessible to scouters. I know with LNT, that the BSA has made available LNT Master courses available in several venues in the regions, with the hope of training BSA scouters as LNT Masters, who can then provide LNT Training within the BSA.

Yes, all 3 High Adventure bases have their own grace. The Philmont and Sea Base Graces have been given. The Northern Tier's Wilderness Grace is: FOR FOOD, FOR RAIMENT FOR LIFE AND OPPORTUNITY FOR SUN AND RAIN FOR WATER AND PORTAGE TRAILS FOR FRIENDSHIP AND FELLOWSHIP WE THANK THEE, OH LORD AMEN

National Supply. But it may be one of those OA things that you really only see for sale at NOACs.

"What other training leadership training would be on par or superior to Wood Badge for BSA application?" Within the BSA, there is nothing. WB is THE advanced leadership course for all scouters. Can you find courses on par to WB outside of scouting? Yes, but you will find that 1) they wouldn't give you info on how to apply what you learn within scouting 2) you will miss out on the connections/comraderie you will get with your fellow scouters 3) you will pay 3-5 times as much! "With all of the bashing of wood badge I was hoping to find out what the alternative is." There isn't one. Go to WB. Ignore the basing. 99% of it is for the wrong reason. Some people are still p*ssy that WB has (again) changed from what the course was when they took it. So what?!? WB has actually changed several times since it came to the US. Some of the bashing is due to the experiences in their particular course. They either didn't like the people running it or how it was run. Each cource, while they follow the same syllabus, will be a little different due to who is running it and the staff. Almost all CD work hard to ensure a great course and a great experience. But you can't fix things if someone comes in with a wrong mindset or wrong attitude. If you come in with the attitude that you want to learn, something, anything, and not with a chip on your shoulder, then you will probably have a pretty good experience.