emb021

"You know, really, the way to treat this thing is thusly: it's vastly better to be ASKED to be on the board, rather than strive to get yourself on it. Being asked to join gives you the right kind of credibility to other board members." Actually, I have to disagree. IMO, part of the problem with the BSA is that too often positions above the unit level are filled by people with this sort of view: that THEY will determine who will be in those positions, and no one need (or should) ask. The problem is that for every 1 person they know and pick, there are probably another 5 or 10 or 20 or who knows GREAT people who might be able to do as good OR BETTER job as the annointed ones, but who got passed over because the PTB weren't aware of them. And who says that those who are picked are in fact the best choices or even that dedicated to the position as those who are unknown but who would like to help out. Quite frankly, the BSA is kind of different from other orgs who are much more transparent as to who is involved at different levels and making it possible for people to seek out AND OBTAIN involvement in those orgs at different levels. And I think the BSA is the poorer for it. (I blame James West and some of his screw organizational decisions on this). "It certainly shouldn't be considered like getting yourself elected patrol leader. .. or U.S. Senator." Why not? If people know what the positions are that exist out there, what the duties are and there is a means of 'throwing your hat in the ring' to be considered for them, its that better for the group? Do people think that a PL or a US Senator should be choicen in the same manner you think that an Exec Board should be filled?

"New and different is usually cool to the young and not so cool to the older." Key word is 'usually'. Don't assume it automatically is. Keep in mind the kids that want to wear that old-fashioned garrison cap... When the then new Oscar DeLorenta uniform came out in 1980, few scouts I knew ran out and got it. I know I didn't until I had to for the 81 Jamboree. There seems to be some adults who are chomping at the bit to get it. Am sure there are some scouts who are the same way. And there are others who really don't care, for whatever reason. Since I'm involved in Venturing & Sea Scouting, I only care about this new uniform to the extent that it affects the programs I'm in (as well as a from a historical basis).

"Anyone notice that BSA's video clip has one image of the shirt backward/reversed?" I noticed, after re-watching in a couple of times. Kind of annoying, and you have to wonder who thought that was a good idea... Frankly, I would have liked to have a seen a little more variety in the selection of patches on the uniform, if only to shut up certain 'discussion' points about it. Wish they would have included samples with a Lodge flap, Jamboree patch, and some knots... "I too would like to know how the new uniform changes will trickle into other programs." Totally agree. Pictures taken of the sample shown at the Scout Shop at the National Meeting has gold loops on it. "No hurry, but there ARE second- and third-order effects that need to be addressed." Uniform comes out in mid-August. At a minimum, having more info would slow down the speculation. Some of the things not clear: * How does this uniform affect Webelos Scout? (assumption, not at all, they just wear blue loops, etc). * How does this uniform affect Varsity Scouts? (assumption, not at all, just wear the orange loops, etc.) * How does this uniform affect Cub Scout leaders? (assumption, not at all, they just wear blue loops, etc) * How does this uniform affect district/council/area/region/national scouters? (assumption, not at all, they just wear silver or gold loops, etc) * Any issue with wearing lodge flaps, jamboree patches, knots? (assumption, none at all. wear them as you would with the current uniform shirt) * How does the spacing of the left pocket on the sleeve affect the size of CSPs or the existance of veteran unit tabs? (assumption that you wouldn't be able to make oversized CSPs, no idea about the veteran unit tabs, as there is now no room for them). * With the new color for the unit numbers for this new uniform, will they be allowed on the current (ie older) scout shirts? Are white on red unit numbers allowed on this new shirt? (assumption is that white on red is not allowed, would think the khaki/tan not allowed on the current shirt, but no clear directive on this. white on red unit numbers are STILL needed, btw, for blue cub scout and green venturing uniforms.) * With the new color for the boy scout loops (forest green instead of red), how does this affect Venturing and its used of the slightly brighter spruce green? (really, how do you answer that?? You just know some people will get them confused...) * With the new color for the boy scout loops (forest green instead of red), how does this affect the use of red? Are red loops restricted to the current uniform? Are the forest green llops allowed on the current uniform or restricted to this new uniform? (really, how do you answer that??? I would think the loops would be restricted to the particular shirt, but you just KNOW that won't happen...) Now, some of these you can kind of guess the answer. Some are more tricky. Personally, not loosing any sleep over it. But it would have been nice if these answers were given when this uniform was rolled out, and since many of us knew this was coming, I think many of us assumed this would be the case.

"So if you serve both the Pack and Troop and the Troop switches to the green, do you have two uniforms, or just pick one or the other?" First off, as I noted they are NOT required to get this new uniform. The current uniform(s) they have are fine. What is NOT clear is how this new uniform affects OTHER programs that use the tan shirt. What do Webelos do? No idea. What do Cub Scout adult leader do? No idea. What do Council/district (and higher) adult leaders do? No idea. I would think that the only thing that one would need to do with this new uniform would be to put the appropriate office patch and shoulder loops (ie, that the blue, silver, and gold loops are ok to wear on this uniform) and you're good to go. But nothing has been said. The new uniform comes out in August. Unless these people need to get a new uniform, my view would be just don't bother. Wear the uniform you've got. Am sure we'll get more info when the uniform is rolled out then.

"Will the changes affect cub scout leaders/comittee members? Some of our members serve on both comittees." Both of what committees? The current BSA uniform will still be official. Nothing forces you to go to the new uniform. It remains to be seen if this uniform will be used alongside the current one, or if the current one will 'go away' when the stock is depleted. "Will they need 2 different uniforms?" Why would they need to do that? AGAIN, the current uniform will still be an official uniform. In face, ANY past BSA uniform is still an official uniform and may be worn. I do see, on occasion, people wearing the pre-Oscar De Larente uniform. Perfectly fine, and still official.

"As I read this post, I pulled out my Insignia Guide to check it out. And as always I respect other opinions but the only thing I find in the Insignia Guide is: Badges of Rank Are for Youth Members." To re-iterate what FScouter said: don't look to the Insignia Guide for a list of 'do nots'. Don't expect it to say all the people who CAN'T wear an award or WHEN an award/item CAN'T be worn or WHERE an award/item CAN'T be worn. The Insignia Guide says WHO CAN wear an award, WHERE an item CAN be worn, and When. Sooo, if you don't fall into that category... If you look, you will see that scouts wear patrol medallions. Since it doesn't say that scout leader wear patrol medallions, guess what? That's means they don't and shouldn't wear them. In fact, I think there are only 2-3 instances in the Insignia Guide of it saying something can't be worn.

"Perhaps you are perplexed because you are not as interested in the history of Patrol Leader Training as you are in the history of corporate and non-profit team building. " If so, why do I have a large collection of various editions of Patrol Leader Handbooks, Scoutmaster Handbooks, and old BSA training materials...

"Situational Leadership was first introduced in 1985 as a management concept in the popular One Minute Manager series of books by Kenneth Blanchard. " Not sure the source of this quote, but its incorrect. Situational Leadership was first introduced in "Management of Organizational Behavior" by Paul Hersey and Ken Blanchard back in the 1960s. Blanchard included it in one of the OMM books as a way to introduce the concept to general readers. SL is about one-on-one leadership. There is also the Team Development Model and Team Leadership Model, which is about teams, which a patrol is. Using well known leadership development models is not some aberation or nullifys patrols and patrol leadership. SL has been around for a long time, and is well used and respected, both by corporate group and non-profit groups. I have yet to understand your attitude toward it.

You get it from National Supply. The number I have for it is #14203.

"I hate to diosappoint you, but the patrol method is alive and well in my neck of the woods just as WB is. But keep tilting at those windmills to your hearts content." Likewise. Most scout leaders would have no idea what you mean by "One Minute Managers", either. Sounds like you are confusing Situational Leadership, which is a well known and well used concept in leadership development for several decades, with the idea of the 'One Minute Manager'.

From some comments, it appears that some don't understand economics or how the economy works. Please obtain a copy of Henry Hazlit's classic "Economics in One Lesson" that is a easy and short introduction to free market economics and how it works (and how governement intervention makes things worse).

"If the price was based on supply & demand, why does the price continue to go up? " Inflation. This is due to the Fed putting more worthless Federal Notes in circulation. The value of this notes is thus less, and the prices go up.

"but I will agree that a stapler works great for keeping 'em in place in a pinch or while you are sewing 'em on. " Actually, that's what I do with patches before I sew them on. I've found using a straight pin isn't as useful. "We only wore the merit badge sashes at board of review and COH. Less to lose, less to get dirty and need to wash." Well, that's really the only time you should be wearing it. Its for special events like that. I just don't understand the mindset of the kids who wear them at: camporees, service projects, jamboree, OA events, etc.

"Can a Board of Review be conducted by teleconference?" Well, I can give you an example. A young lady in my council had her Board of Review for Quartermaster (highest Sea Scout award, only about 15 a year are awarded) several years ago done via conference call. This was due to the fact she had to be out of the area for college or something. The then Council Commodore did it this way and didn't see an issue. Unless its forbidden by the Advancement Guidelines, what is the issue?

"If I were to design the boy scout uniform, it would pretty much be minimal. Take a pair of Dickies work pants, a Dickies work shirt, add some rank/insignia knots, a few identifying patches on the sleeves and be done with it. " Well, that's your take. In my part of the country, such clothing would NOT be practical outdoor clothing. Most sportsmen would NOT wear stuff like that. Too hot and heavy. What is more popular is what is called a 'fishing shirt' (many sources, including Columnia, Bass Pro Shop, etc), which IMO the new shirt seems to take some of its ques from. billowed pockets, rollup sleeves, etc. At the National Jamboree, the OA service corps used an embroidered blue Columbia fishing shirt as their activity shirt. I think the NESA people did the same thing.

AFAIK, the requirements to join is 14 and finished 8th grade OR 15. There are no 'ranks' in Venturing. Venturing does have an advancement program and several awards, but unlike Boy Scouts (or Cub Scouts) we really don't build our program around getting the awards or push them like those programs do. We would rather encourage the awards and just make sure the kids are aware of them. The basic advancement program consists of the Bronze, Gold, and Silver. Silver is the highest Venturing award, so it gets a knot. There are 5 different Bronze awards for the different speciality groups within Venturing: Outdoor, Arts & Hobbies, Sports, Religious Life, and Sea Scouts. Crews can modify the requirements for A&H, Sports, and RL WITHIN CERTAIN BOUNDS to make it more relavent to their crew specialty. Yes, a Venturers can earn all 5 Bronze if they want. In addition there are 3 "expert" awards that build of one of the Bronzes. There is Ranger, which builds off the Outdoor Bronze (which is half the award); Quest which builds off the Sports Bronze; and TRUST which builds off the Religious Life Bronze. In addition, there are other Venturing awards such as their own World Conservation Award (different patch and different requirements then the one for Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts), Venturing Shooting Sports Award (builds off that requirement in Ranger), and various awards available to both Venturers as well as Boy Scouts. Also, ps, our program is "Venturing", not "venture", so its "Venturing Crew", not "venture crew".

If the info you need isn't on Wikipedia or WOSM's website, your best bet would be to contact WOSM themselves.

"I have felt for some time that Scoutmasters struggle today with leadership development because National emphasizes formal training over the scoutmaster guiding the scout in actual practice. I really dont think the folks at National understand how to do effective leadership development," Actually, as a former Scoutmaster & ASM, I would disagree. I think many SM struggle with leadership development because they DON'T understand or know how to guide the scout in actual practice. These people need a 'canned' program that they can deliver to their scouts. And I have a preference for a 2nd-level, council-delivered program (today that's NYLT) to ensure that scouts get good LD training because I think that even with a canned program the SMs can deliver it will be inconsistant. Whether NYLT is the best that could be done for this 2nd-level training is another matter.

Well, I have to wonder also about the idea. Not too keen on it. There seems to be some out there who feel that the youth staff who put a lot of time in preparing to be staff should be recognized in some way. But I think many of their ideas just don't fit how we do things. In my council, they do a round wooden bead for staff, which I think is a nice idea. Similiar to, but different from WB beads. I don't like the idea of a knot for being on NYLT staff. You don't get knots for that. (also many of us would have a chestful of knots for staffing stuff...) I also don't like the idea used in some councils of some permenant patch (patch on sleeve or what have you) for this. Again, you just don't do that. More appropriate would be a special staff patch (different border, etc) that would be worn on the right pocket. A belt buckle (they do that for NLS staff), bolo tie or even special neckerchief are all appropriate. Kind of wish National would look into something that would be recognizable nationaly, and would stop some of the nonsense out there.

Crazy Crow (indian craft supplier) gives discounts to scout groups. You do have to register as such before hand. Something like 10%. Get idea for your OA lodge or the like. http://www.crazycrow.com/ Wandering Bull (http://www.wanderingbull.com/) has something similiar. (they usually have the craft store setup at NOACs).

"The boys need a uniform, not a fashion statement and something that would be functional as well would be bonus." Man, you just get the craziest ideas on-line...

Scouts don't wear green uniforms. They have been using tan shirts since around 1980 or so. However, Webelos Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Varsity Scouts all wear tan. So the loops do show who is what. At one time Explorers wore the tan shirt as well (due the periods they dropped the forest green shirts).

There is no such thing as "class A slides". There has never been any rules as to what slides you wear. Many prefer handmade slides, whether something the boy carves or a woven turks' head (these make great friendship gifts!). Some scouts prefer to wear special ones sold for their council, camp, OA or OA event, jamboree, high adventure, etc. The only 'rule' I am aware of is that one should only wear the WB neckerchief and slide together, and never mix them.

It sounds like the problem is the members of the troop don't see what the OA does. This is stuff that both the chapter and the lodge can and should address: * Make the Lodge visible at your scout show. My current lodge has a big booth and does a pig and turkey roast (this from when we had 2 scout shows, and at one we did a pig roast and the other a turkey roast). This includes displays of lodge stuff and the like. * Make the Lodge/Chapter more visible at council/district events. Stuff like being event staff, running a grill or food vending, and the like. * Consider doing Scoutreach or the like in your council/district. "Operation First Class" is another event I've heard done, that is aimed at helping kids get to to First Class. All of this kind of stuff puts the lodge in front of scouts/scouters AND doing stuff that will have an impact on them.

"Not saying that the Venture groups should not have their own uniform. I am simply saying we need to to give the 11-15 age group a uniform they feel proud of, not one they want to hide. The one I have heard my guys keep talking about is the Venture uniform. I have no axe to grind in this. I will enforce the uniform requirements that National hands down. But I really want the guys to feel proud and not "dorky" in their uniform." Please stop calling us "venture". Its "Venturing". The only difference between the boy scout uniform and the venturing uniform is the color. The boy scout shirt is tan. The venturing shirt is spruce green. please explain how a spruce green shirt is 'not dorky' and a tan shirt is...