emb021

"So yes, each person will register on their own. Not sure what coucils will do that already have troops filled and another youth tries to register via on line. Could be a problem for those councils that started collecting $$$ already. Council still has must approve all scouts attending" Well, I don't see it as necessarily a 'problem' for the council, other then a scout is out $10 who isn't going to Jamboree. It's more accurate to say you are APPLYING for Jamboree, and that you still need to be approved, etc. The same thing had been done for NOAC in the last few years (tho I don't think contingents had their people signup on-line, it was mainly for staff), tho they didn't charge $10. National probably did that to scare off the silly applications.

"The issue might be the the scouts are trying to do the sewing. Or it might be that the parent sewing does not know where the stuff goes. Try to help out and be a part of the solution. Uniform inspections and guidelines are something that can be passed on. " I think the issue is more that the scout parents don't know where it goes. Tied to it, there seems to be a problem that many people 1) don't bother to find out where things go on the uniform 2) some don't educate themselves in where things go, and pass on bad information 3) those that know too often avoid point out errors for fear of being 'attacked' Its not rocket science to get a copy of the inspection sheets (they're on-line. I was given a copy as a scout.). Getting a copy of the Insignia Guide is VERY easy. (I collect them. When I got my first copy as an older scout, I thought it was NEAT. It was like a catalog of all possible scout awards, many I never even knew about). We had a thread in the past on bad uniforming. I've collected a list of what I see as the top bad uniforming gaffes, and heard a LOT of 'urban legends' of wrong info on where some things go.

"As far as the lack of program structure being a part of Venturing's weakness, you copuld be right. I think the biggest problem is the misuse of the program as an extension of a troop's program. most Crews are started using the same leaders from a troop as a way to keep older scouts interested. "But if they can't deliver a troop program that interests older scouts how will changing the name from troop to crew make the leaders better at delivering a program? So the crew rarely lasts more than a year or two or survives with the minimum number of scouts and never really develops as a program. " A lot of what you say is true. However, there are not as many Crews as you think that were formed that way. There are some crews that are really nothing more then glorified Venture Patrols (which is your main point). These Crews are too often too tightly coupled to a troop to really get their own identity and purpose, and you rarely see these "Venturers" really use the program. There are some Crew that form as 'split off' from a Troop, but usually have separate leadership and identity, and so are more successful. Before the days of Venturing, I saw the same phenominon with Explorer Posts being formed out of Troops, usually for those youth/adults who wanted to focus on high adventure stuff. I think part of why you're see more of this stuff today then you saw the Explorer Post in past decades is that most leaders in the 80s and 90s usually thought of Exploring (if ever) as just a career awareness program. With the higher profile of Venturing, you're seeing more Venturing Crews that are nothing more then Venture Patrols.

"Venturing is still quite new." IMO its not. In many ways Venturing is nothing more then a continuation of the Explorer program that goes back to atleast the 1930s. Many of the 'flexible' elements of Venturing (define your own program/identity/uniform) has been a part of Exploring atleast since the 1960s. "BTW, why did they go from Kodiak to Kodiak X, shouldn't they have done Kodiak II, Kodiak III, Kodiak IV etc first?" the "X" of Kodiak X is for "eXtreme", not 10!

BW is correct. Some of the incorrect things I've seen that have been "approved by the SE" has been nonsense such as: * allowing Venture Patrols to wear the green Venturing shirt * allowing an OA Lodge contingent to NOAC wear the gray Venturing shorts * local knots * allowing the wearing of the Good Turn for America patch where the Jamboree patch goes. * allowing for non-Jamboree patches where the Jamboree patch goes. * allowing district patches to be made and worn on the left sleeve. * approving incorrect Ship/Crew patches. (a patch saying "Venture Crew 123" would be incorrect)

This is getting off the topic of the original thread. "Venturing has the worst retention by percentage of the three programs." Is it poor retention or youth aging out (or leaving area to go to college)? The problem I see with Venturing that causes drops in membership is untrained leaders which lead to a poor program. I also see a lot of units struggling with poor program. A support structure (Venturing Roundtable, training, Venturing events) can help with this. If support is non-existant in a council, small, struggling crews will go under. Only those crews that are larger and better leadership will survive. Another issue is that too often crews are formed around a small group of youth, who treat the crew as their own private club. They never recruit or promote themselves or in any way try to get new people to join, so that when that original group ages out (or leaves for college), the crew may very well die. Many crew struggle with promoting themselves to bring in additional membership. Some do a great job, others do a poor job. Again, support from the council/district can help crews promote themselves. Too often if the council leadership isn't aware that certain crews are out there with certain programs, they aren't able to point youth to them that are interest in that program. (example: if you had a model railroad crew, and the council doesn't even know about it, they can't point youth interested in model railroading to them). "A good unit program keeps scouts in loonger regardless of which program it is in." True. The problem I see is that the Boy Scout program is very clearly defined AND supported, so that most troops have a decent program. The flexibility of the Venturing program, where each crew can (and often does) have a unique program is both a strength and a weakness. Too often if a crew as a different program then most other crews, they may find it hard to get any support from district/council. If the crew leadership isn't able to provide that program support (either themselves or thru consultants), then that crew will struggle.

fastbow- I have no idea where you got this idea of separating "badges of office" into 'leadership patches' and 'job patches'. That is just incorrect. SM, ASM, JASM, SPL, ASPL, PL, APL Bugular, Scribe, Quartermaster, Historian, Librarian, Den Chief, Chaplin's Aide, Instructor are ALL "badges of office" and as such, are worn on the left sleeve. Here is a link to the Uniform inspection sheet: http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/Youth/~/media/legacy/assets/forms/34283.pdf.ashx Note that is says "badge of office" goes on the left sleeve. It shows a "Musician" patch on the right sleeve, which, as others have pointed out is NOT a 'badge of office'. (the sheet notes that this is worn if the scout is a member of a troop band or drum corps). Get a copy of the Insignia Guide!! I am uncertain how much insignia placement is given in the current edition of the Boy Scout Handbook. In my day, the inside covers (back and front) gave the position diagrams to the 2 sleeves and 2 pockets, and there was an illustrated uniform shirt with all possible patches pointed out. There is no excuse for putting badges of office patches on the right sleeve. One big mistake I see (of many) is that too often scouts have too much space between the patches on the left sleeve. This can cause problems with wearing all the patches they need do, for scouts with shorter sleeves. All patches on the left sleeve (as shown on the inspection sheet) need to be tight together. If a scout has half an inch space between the patches, it looks sloopy and sometimes makes it hard to get everything on.

"If the SE only has authority to authorize a temporary patch, then where does the authority to authorize alternative CSPs and JSPs come from?" SE can approve more then just temporary patches. They approve CSPs and JSPs. They approve Ship and Crew patches (which must be within a certain size and not include certain things because these will be worn on the uniform on the right sleeve).

I'm like GW. Several shirts, some with one CSP, some with the other. For years I've used velcro for my OA flaps (I use a wide strip). This makes the changing of OA flaps easy (most of the lodges in my area change their flaps every couple of years, and prefer that members wear the CURRENT flap. So, new flap, add velcro to that ONE flap, and I'm good for all my shirts. Simple!) Depending on which council I'm doing stuff with/for, I wear that shirt with my flap.

"Have we forgotten that the Boy Scouts were designed to help soldiers in the military have a better understanding of survival. That was many years ago." Um, we can't forget something that isn't true. Please read the early writing of the Founder to have a better understanding of the 'original' purpose of Scouting.

FScouter is correct. There are many people (including some SE) that think the SE can approve a wide range of uniform/patch varience. Not so. There are in several council locally produced square knots for various local purposes (local awards, etc). This was 'allowed' because the local SE had 'approved' it. The National Committee for uniforming said NO, and there was an article in ProSpeak (the newsletter for professional scouters) that basically said NO local square knots are allowed. In one council I'm in, there are a lot of people who wear the Good Turn for America patch above the right pocket (were Jamboree emblems go). I bet this is because the SE 'approved' it, which, again, is wrong.

I'm involved with 2 councils. To my knowledge, you have to pay in both councils. The concept of dual-registered only works within a council. I'm registered with ONE lodge, so I wear the lodge flap on my uniforms regardless of council. I've had a couple of people in the 'other council' question me about why I wear a flap of another lodge. I explain why. What I find interesting is I've never been asked to be involved with that council's lodge (even tho I know many arrowmen in it).

In reference to BW's posting, this is the classic 'chicken and the egg': no support until Venturing grows, but how can Venturing group without support. This is why in many council, Venturing leaders who want to see Venturing grow have formed Council Venturing Committees to provide support for crews (youth and adult training), some program stuff (council venturing activities, etc), promote the program (single Venturing booth at scout shows with all crew participating, promoting what those crews do and promote/explain Venturing), etc. Ideally, they will get formal approval and support, otherwise they've do it on the sly.

BW pretty much coveres it. I will add that I see shadow leadership used a lot in the OA, where every youth officer/committee chair has an assigned advisor. At best, this just means that the youth has a specific person they can go to to get advise/information (because ideally that person would be knowledgable in the task the youth is doing). At worse, these means that if the youth is having problems, or just not doing the job, that advisor can quickly step in to make sure it does get done.

I've seen a lot of great scouting artwork over the years (Rockwell is at the top of that, but there are others). I've also seen a lot of poor scouting artwork. I recall a couple of examples from the early 80s. This is around the time the first Indiana Jones movie came out. National did a piece that was loosely based on the Raiders movie poster (Indiana Jones in the center, with hat on, around him various scenes of action): a scout centered, with various scenes of scouting action around him. However, the execution was poor, being done in the ugly green watercolor style typical of most of the artwork coming out of National. Then I was visiting the Florida Sea Base and saw a piece of scouting artwork that echoed the above piece. HOWEVER, this piece was done more in the style of the movie and thus was more successful. AFAIK, it was done NOT by National, but by one of the large councils in Texas. When I go thru my old scout handbooks, I really love the fine pen and ink artwork in the older handbooks, but really hate the more loosel watercolor artwork that appeares in the handbooks of the 50s, 60s, and 70s. I didn't like the artwork in my handbook of the mid 70s, and really like the later Green Bar Bill 9th edition that included all that Rockwell art (which I was not familiar with and really liked).

"I think most people are wearing it over the top of the pocket because it is easier to sew there. Not that it is right, but probably one person in the area sewed it on and it "became" the right(wrong) place to have it. " Getting back to the original thread. Actually, no, I don't think that's the reason. The area above the right pocket has for decades been reserved for Jamboree patches. Every so often I see people wearing other patches in that location, usually because they think they are 'important' patches that 'deserve' to go up there (as well as the fact they've never been to a jamboree, and so probably want to 'fill the space').

I earned skill awards when I was a scout. Because it took me so long to earn Citizenship (required for Tenderfoot), it took me awhile to advance. Once I got it, I quickly moved to First Class because I had all the other requirements (except time). I recall being at the 1981 Jamboree with my scout belt on with the skill awards, and some foreign scouts (Japanese I think) were marveling at them. Skill awards were go if you are for instant recognition. Most troops kept a supply of skill awards on hand so that they could be handed out at the end of meetings (or at the end of a camping trip). When they got rid of skill awards, they replaced it with the 'instant recognition kit' that was the leather belt tab with the beads. Not sure how well scouts like them. We had several of our older scouts that didn't want to use them. I had to explain that since they were already past First Class, the kit had no purpose for them, so why would they need to use or wear it???

She turned me into a newt! I got better.

GW is correct about where the GTA patch is worn. Sadly, in one of the councils I work with, many scouts and scouters wear it about the right pocket. No idea where they got this idea from.

Totally agree with GW about sending out the info. If people don't want/can't go, so be it. Better that then be damned for NOT informing them. I can't understand why someone would complain about you sending this out, but I never stop being amazed by some people. OGE is correct on consultants. They are outside knowledge experts who come into to your unit to help them with a particular activity. The idea is that you can't expect (or demand) that the Advisors/Associate advisors be experts in all the things the youth want (this applies to both Venturing and Sea Scouts), so you make use of consultants to fill that knowledge gap.

One council I work with used to do VLSC on an annual basic. We did this because most Crews were small and couldn't run VLSC themselves. (note- VLSC is normally done by a crew for the entire membership of the crew. Unlike courses like NYLT, its not intended for JUST the officers). We've had problems doing it at the council level, and now some of the districts are doing it (but open to anyone from any district). Kodiak. Keep in mind that Kodiak can be done at the council level, district level, or by a crew. I highly recommend that before you attempt to run Kodiak that you either A) attend one of the Region Kodiak CDCs, or B) participate in a Kodiak course. Kodiak is an add-on to a high adventure trip. A crew could do it as an add-on to a week-long summer trip, or your council could do it as an add-on to their Venturing week program at camp (so long as the follow the rules of Kodiak). In my area, we've only done about 3 or so Kodiak courses. Kodiak X. MUST be done at the council level and MUST be done by someone whose gone thru a Kodiak CDC (AFAIK, you aren't supposed to just pick up the syllabus and do it, but I hope I'm not wrong here). As yet, we haven't been able to do a Kodiak X in my area, tho I've tried to lay the ground work to do is (we need enought Kodiak participants to make it doable).

"As you know a Venture Patrol has nothing to do with VENTURING. Am I misunderstanding something? " Nope, you're not. If someone is suggesting that the Venturers that might attend NYLT be organized into a 'Venture Patrol', they really misunderstand how these programs work, and would confuse the youth. Its really important in many councils to get it into peoples heads that venture patrols have nothing to do with Venturing. You get people saying stuff like 'a venture patrol is just Venturing in a troop' or thinking that venture patrols can wear the green Venturing uniform shirt. So doing this (organizing Venturers into a Venture Patrol @ NYLT) would really undermine what we're trying to do to get people to understand these programs that are very different.

You can see the logo a little better at the National website: http://ww2.scouting.org/100years/100years/content/NationalLogoContest.aspx

I find the logo a bit... dull. I'd like to see the top 5-6 runner up designs. For instance, my lodge issued as a year set of patches the proposed designs for our state quarter that weren't used. Might make a neat year set for a council or lodge to use the proposed designs that didn't make it.

"For example, why do we need a "Trained" patch? Your CC should know if you are trained and there's no need to broadcast it to the rest of the world." Its nice to show other scouters we work with that we have completed training. There has been a "trained" patch since probably the 60s/70s. There was a period of time where certain adults leader patches where done in solid mylar threads to show trained leaders.