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"But, the SM also has the ability to not allow the bully or other unqualified scout to stand for the election (?). " Don't know why you have the question mark. Yes, SMs continue to be the 'gatekeepers' to who gets on the ballot for OA elections. They certainly have the power to leave off the 'bully' et al. Either SMs don't understand this (may be the fault of the e-teams or lack of OA knowledge on the part of the SM), or wish to be seen as 'impartial' by allow all who met the other eligibility requirements on the ballot.

"I don't see the need for this knot, you have the patch for PTC. You can earn the knot for your position and, if memory serves, you need to attend advanced training for that." Have to agree. I'm all for recognizing people for the work they do. And in certain situations, I would agree for a knot. I do not see the value of this PTC knot. I do not see the value of the NESA Life Member knot. I do not see the value of the Doctor of Commissioner Science knot (doesn't the Distinguished Commissioner Award cover much of the same ground???) I do not see the value of knots people are demanding for staffing NYLT and the like. (you don't get knots for staffing courses, sorry. while I agree with recognition for such, there are more appropriate ways then with knots). The last new knot I saw a value for is the Venturing Leadership Award knot, which is actually are 3 awards, but there is only one knot (you use pins to indicate with level you got the award).

Some comments. FWIW I've attended several National Jamborees and was on staff for 2007 WSJ. from what I understand, it was fairly easy to go on staff for the world jamboree. the BSA was allocated 800 slots in 2007, and I was told that we did not fill them. Not sure why. Also, don't think the host country will fill all the main slots with their people and only those with 'special skills' can apply. Doesn't work that way. I know the BSA scouters filled many positions, both 'specalized' and 'grunt work'. I wound up working in the adult dinning hall. Certainly not a good use of my 'specialized skills', as I work in IT. : As to the Venturing Crews. The plan was that each region would send 2-3 Venturing crews. Sadly, they didn't get enought youth to fill them. I know the southern region was planning for 2 crews, but only sent 1. I think it wound up that we only sent 4 crews. I would certainly like to see more Venturing Crews at the 2011 WSJ. The theme for the 2011 WSJ is "Simply Scouting". That's the theme they gave during their presentation at the 07 WSJ. Hopefully we should learn soon where the next WSJ will be (competition is apparently between Singapore and Japan). Don gave the straight scope on alot of things. He organized an informal/unofficial group of BSA ISTers going to the WSJ which did some touring before and after the jamboree. This group did a better job of getting us prepared for the jambo then national did.

Actually, Emergency Service was once a big element of scouting. In the past (30s/40s), there was a program in which scout troop could prepare themselves to be emergency service troops. Boys, by meeting certain requirements, could be so certified, and be qualified to wear insignia for this. By the 1940s or so, Emergency Service pretty much became the preview of the Senior Scout program. Into the 1950s, Explorer Posts doing Emergency Service was seen as a big part of their program. However, by the 1960s and 70s, this started to die out, except for some Post that might specialize in this. The current 'emergency prepardness BSA' pin is kind of a throw back to that era.

"When I was the Council JLT Chairman (In Beaver's Council by the way) we were developing what was then our council leadership development (JLTC) ladder that funtioned as one of the stepping stones in the whole BSA Junior Leadership Development Program." Eagledad- good post. HOWEVER, you need to get a copy of the current Leadership Training Committee booklet, as it give the CURRENT and CORRECT Youth leader development cycle. Yours has some problems in that some courses no longer exist. Off the top of my head, the 'ladder' is: Troop Leadership Training (#34306A)- done by troops National Youth Leadership Training - done by Councils National Youth Advanced Leadership Experience - done at Philmont Den Chief training should not be viewed as a first step in leadership development for scouts. Its TLT. Not all youth leaders will become Den Chiefs. JLTC is no more, its now NYLT (nilt). NJLIC is no more (by about 2 years), its closest replacement is a regional-level course that I think only the NE gives. NAYLE (nail) is NOT a NJLIC replacement, as its NOT limited to future NYLT youth staff. There has been articles in Scouting about it. Other courses you overlooked is the OA's LLD (Lodge Leadership Development) and NLS (National Leadership Seminar).

"Actually, I like Ordeals and Brotherhood Ceremonies during Scout Camp... far, far more intimate than the hundreds of folks at a pop of Induction Weekends. " In Florida, it used to be that Ordeals were held just as summer camp ended. (Lodge work weekend to setup camp, elections and tap outs each week of camp, ordeal to take down camp). Later on, most Lodges moved ordeal away from summer camp because: 1) too hot, so ordeals during spring was better' 2) do more meaningful service work instead of scut work putting tents/platforms away. So typical schedule is something along these lines: Ordeal around spring time, summer fellowship to setup camp, work day to take down camp, fall fellowship, winter banquet.

SctDad- building off what kb6jra said, the purpose of NCS is to training those who will be camp directors for boy scout and cub scout camps. For councils to run approved Boy Scout Resident Camps (ie Summer Camps) or Cub Scout Day Camp, they must have people who have attended various training at NCS in areas such as aquatics, shooting sports, heath/safety, camping, etc. NCS is NOT for the rank and file. For better or worse, info on NCS isn't really well known. But if your council leadership has selected you to be a camp director, you will be given info. Not sure what you're looking for, but if you are looking for training beyond what you get within your council, you're probably better off check out what is offered at the Philmont Training Center. That training is known and available from the National website, and many of the courses ARE aimed at unit-level people. You just have to get approved by your local council, which should be easy.

The source for BSA materials in Spanish (and other languages) is Scoutreach: http://www.scoutreachbsa.org/ They have a whole section for Hispanic/Latino stuff: http://www.scoutreachbsa.org/hispanic/index.html This includes general brochures, training for youth and adults, etc. There is also an award to recognize those are involved in bringing scouting to this community called the Scouting ... Vale la pena! Service Award. (again, info at the website).

"I will go read a book as soon as any one of you can describe how you used Servant Leadership to train even one of your Patrol Leaders to use Patrol Meetings away from the Troop to plan a Patrol Hike, Patrol-based Advancement, and a Patrol Overnight (if only 300 feet from the adults on a monthly campout). I might be convinced by Stosh if he has gotten that far, because he uses more Traditional Methods." Oh, please. Servant-leadership and all other forms of leadership development have NOTHING to do with the specific job skills for a position. Its a mistake to assume that AND a mistake to condemn them for that. Its like condeming a screwdriver for not being a hammer. Teaching any form of leadership development deals with teaching people how to be a leader. Being a leader is all about getting people to do what needs to be done. WHAT needs to be done is a different thing. LD is the HOW. You've been talking about the WHAT. Developing a patrol leader means you need to cover the HOW (servant-leadership, situational leadership, team development, etc etc) AND the WHAT ("how to use Patrol Meetings away from the Troop to plan a Patrol Hike, Patrol-based Advancement, and a Patrol Overnight" etc). The failure to do both this IS an issue I have with many leadership development programs. Too often they get into the HOW (servant leadership, situational leadership, team development et al), but FAIL to do the WHAT. Then the participants flounder because no one went over what they need to do for their job. For instance, no one sat down the PLs and taught them how to do their job or the SPLs or Scribes, etc. Now, if your argument is that the current LD program for youth fail to adequetly teach them HOW to do their jobs, then say so. Stop attaching the leadership development part. That wouldn't be the problem. And on the flip side, ONLY teaching the WHAT and not the HOW (which you seem to want) is also bad for the personal development of the individual. They don't understand how to be a leader in other situations. They don't have leadership skills they can take to a new situation. I had that problem when I went off to college. I knew very well how to be a PL and SPL, but couldn't apply what I learned there to being a club officer. Because I didn't understand basic leadership concepts.

Central florida Council has an active Venturing Committee and does a lot of stuff to support Venturing. You should be able to get your youth and adults to training, as well as upcoming Venturing events in your council. Go to http://venturing.cfcbsa.org/ for more info.

In my copy of "Three Boy Scouts in Africa" is given a list other books, under the collective series of "Boys' Books By Boys": David Binney Putnam David goes Voyaging David goes to Greenland David goes to Baffin Island Deric Nusbaum Deric in Mesa Verde Deric with the Indians Robert Carver North Bob North starts Exploring Bob North by Canoe and Portage Bob North with Dog Team and Indians Bradford Washburn Amoung the Alps with Bradford Bradford on Mt. Washington Bradford on Mount Fairweather Halswy Oakley Fuller Halsey in the West Indies Robert Dick Douglas, Jr David Martin Jr Douglas L Oliver Three Boy Scouts in Africa Robert Dick Douglas, Jr A Boy Scout in Grizzly Country Fifteen Boy Scouts The Scout Jamboree Book Scout Jamboree 1933 Douglas L Oliver A Boy Scout in the Grand Cavern Clarke Crichton, Jr Frozen-In David Martin, Jr A Boy Scout with the Sea Devil Five Boy Scouts Boy Scouts on the Oregon Trail Paul Siple A Boy Scout with Byrd Exploring at Home Why Twice (Note- never heard of this book. Is this really "Scout to Explorer"??)

"On the home front, we have the well known THREE SCOUTS IN AFRICA, ones to do with national park work, sea journeys, and the saga of 800 scouts who reenacted a trip from Wyoming to Oregon on the Oregon Trail back in the 30s." I just got a copy from eBay. It lists several other similiar books, many I was not aware of. Paul Siple's are the only ones I already have, but they list a book by Siple titled "Why Twice" which I've never heard of. I wonder if that's the book on his second trip to Antarctica (titled "Scout to Explorer"). His 2nd book is interesting: "Exploring at Home", which tells of his natural history explorations with another former scout of a nearby wetland area. Certainly something that most scouts could do in their own area, vs having to travel hundreds of miles to someplace else. "More recent books are also out there, such as the story of the Koshare group, or the history of the Hmong scouts." Never heard of either of those! Title and sources? I've like to get them. "Wonder how many scouters even have heard of some of these things. And wouldn't it be great if some of these true adventures could be made into a series for TV?" I think few are aware of them. I've love to see some articles in Scouting magazine about them, and prehaps some inexpensive reprints as well.

"Possibly we would have a better, certainly different group if some of the prominent people involved at the start who withdrew had stayed the course. We need to look back with respect, but also recognize the shortcomings and try to learn from their mistakes." Your comments about all the various founders and other early figures are well taken. None were perfect. I think West did some important things for the BSA. He also did some detrimental things for the BSA. I think of the people you mention, I can only thing of GBB has not having any faults, per say. As we get closer to the 100th Anniversary, I really hope that we see more and more bios (as well as reprints) of these founders and early pioneers of scouting, so that others can know and appreciate what they did.

"I seem to recall from the book that originally the charter was given to the SM. I suppose changing that was one of West's dictates. That doesn't bother me as much as the lack of real democratic process in elections as you mention. At least it gives volunteers a reason to cultivate the COR." Keep in mind that West wasn't our first executive director, but our third. So things were done a little differently in the first year before West came along, and further changes occured under him. While I think the idea of having CO is a good one, the last of proper democractic/parliamentary process is something I don't think is good. As well as members have any say. Having to cultivate the COR is not a good method, because keep in mind the COR is not there to represent the units (and its members/leaders), but the chartered org. "Sadly, there are no more GBBs around, nor are there ever likely to be again. That's one of the reasons I'm writing the book. People should be able to look back to a time when such men were in the program." Too true. I always wished the GBB has been proclaimed Chief Scout. He was the only person at the time worthy of the title. And I can't think of anyone who could replace him.

""he did a lot of bad things, many of which IMO we are still 'paying' for" "I'd guess you're referring to the entrenchment of "rule by executives" which was his major accomplishment and indeed his major philosophy." The so-called 'volunteer run/professionaly directed' nonsense? In most other non-profit membership orgs, the professional staff are clearly understood to be employees of the org, who could be hired and fired at will of the org, and not the bosses of the members. Plus stuff like: * power/vote in the organizaton given to chartered org reps, not the membership. (what other membership organization does that?) * selection of 'elected' leadership done by a single slate of candidates voted on as a single group with no nominations from the floor nor voting on each single candidate. (real democratic?) And, IMO, the boy scout program as it began deviated quite a bit from what B-P had set down, and thru the efforts of people like GBB, was brought more in line with what it should have been.

"that's a really good book and one I've relied on heavily in my treatment of West. Always wondered why he wasn't regarded more reverentiallyin the BSA. Now I know. They were glad to be rid of him and didn't want a cult following." Having also read the book, I have to agree. West was a real piece of work. While he did many good things for the BSA, he did a lot of bad things, many of which IMO we are still 'paying' for. Strangley enought, there are some who have read the book and whose opinion of him has apparently improved greatly.

Gunny's posting is a decent overview of servant leadership. Servant Leadership is a principle or philosophy of leadership. Its a way of looking at leadership, and isn't a concept that should be seen as a replacement of other leadership concepts that can and should be used. Greenleaf is created with coining the term and defining it. Yes, the concept has probably been around for hundreds of years before hand, but he was the first person to put it down in a concrete way. Others try to tie it into the ideas of empowerment and stewardship as well. I think one of the best overviews of SL is the introduction to the book "Practicing Servant Leadership" written by Larry Spears that I've also seen on-line. Tho reading Greenleaf's essay "The Servant as Leader" is one that should also be read. In my Fraternity when we teach servant leadership, we touch on 10 characteristics of SL: Persuasion, Conceptualization, Foresight, Stewardship, Listening, Empathy, Building Community, Healing, Awareness, Committement to the Growth of People. "The bread and butter of servant leadership is that the two greatest minds in the history of Scouting (Baden-Powell and Green Bar Bill) are "old-fashioned" (they dug trenches around their tents, didn't they?) and therefore their training techniques must be replaced with the theory of leadership "experts." " I have no idea where you're coming up with cr*p like this. I know of no one who really understands servant leadership would speak of BP or GBB as 'old fashioned'. What does servant leadership have to do with trenching tents??? (tho am sure LNT would have an issue with that). "My problem with servant leadership is that its gurus seldom talk about objective accomplishments in terms that the followers of B-P and Green Bar Bill can understand." And what gurus of servant leadership do you know? Anyone who understands and teaches servant leadership could talk of objective accomplishments such that people who understand leadership could grasp. Many of the excellent books on SL speak of its real world use and value, in both the non-profit and the for profit worlds. Your repeated posts show a grave lack of understanding current thoughts in leadership development. Ever new idea is to be used to insult people. White Stag is evil. Later its the One Minute Manager, later on its Situational Leadership. Now its servant leadership. It seems clear to me that if it wasn't invented by B-P &/or GBB, as far as you're concerned, its of no value. There doesn't seem to be any idea that current leadership development might not be a total change in leadership concepts of B-P et al, but prehaps a refinement and extension.

"if the OA Troop Reps are not even showing up for Chapter meetings, they need to be removed from their POR as well." Since it's the SM who selects the OA Troop Reps, with usually no oversite/input of the lodge, good luck with that...

shortridge gave some good advise. I'll add and amplify a few things. * time and location of a chapter meeting is important. In many areas, its at the same time/place as the monthly roundtable, to help with transportation. Not sure if that works or not, but its used many places successfully. * program, program, program. There needs to be a reason for having the YOUTH to attend chapter meetings. Its vital that there be some attraction to come. So its vital to have a program or purpose (more then just chit-chat). Have a program that will attract them. Doing chapter activities OUTSIDE lodge events and chapter meetings is also a good idea. Doesn't have to be big or major, but something to bring the kids in.

Servant Leadership was thought up by Robert Greenleaf back in 1970. He wrote extensively on the concept, and founded an institute now bearing his name (The Robert Greenleaf Center for Servant-Leadership). In the past decade Servant Leadership has become much better known. Many non-profit groups have latched on to the concept, especially those of a religious basis. Many companies have also adopted the concept and have been very success because of it. Several leaders in leadership development (Blanchard, Bennis, Covey, et al) have incorporated SL into their teachings. If I have one issue with the BSA's use of servant leadership is that they 1) do not cite their source for the concept or make it clear the many works one can read to learn more about it and 2) frankly do a poor job of clearly stating what servant leadership is. I hear the term used a lot in the OA, but never an explaination of what it means. In contrast, my Fraternity incorporated servant leadership into its leadership development program at the same time the OA started to toss the term around. However, we clearly stated were the term came from, quote Greenleaf, AND clearly teach what the concept is all about. In our basic leadership course we spend a good 40 minutes (of a 3 hour course) going into what is servant leadership and the elements that make it up. Something I have yet to see in any BSA training program. If you want to learn more about servant leadership, I recommend the following works: "Servant Leadership" by Greenleaf (collection of Greenleaf's classic essays on servant leadership, including the first one, "Servant as Leader"). "The Power of Servant Leadership" by Greenleaf "Reflections on Leadership", "Focus on Leadership", "Insights on Leadership" ed by Larry Spears. Collections of essays on servant leadership by many writers on leadership. "Practicing Servant Leadership" ed by Larry Spears. Collection of the first 11 "Voices of Servant Leadership" series. "Case for Servant Leadership" by Kent Keith. New book from the Greenlead Center. I expect it to be good. "Leadership Jazz" and "Leadership is an Art" by Max DePree. "The Servant" and "The World's Most Powerful Leadership Principle" by James C. Hunter. The website for the Greenleaf Center is: www.greenleaf.org The former Exec Director of the center now has is own org- the Spears Center for Servant-Leadership: spearscenter.org/

"what about meds? one is on OTC allergy meds, but the other boy is on Adderrol. I'm assuming there is a procedure in place for this- anyone know what it is?" Uncertain about that. I know that National is being very concerned about the health conditions of staff and adult leaders, and I would assume the youth. There are medical staff at all subcamps. I would think they would be able to handle this, but am not certain. This is really something you should speak with your local council Jamboree folk, who would have the more accurate info. "And do you think the kids would be humiliated if the parents came by for the day (or several days) to visit? Are thier often parents wandering around?" A lot of kids have their parents/relatives visiting. There are a large number of visitors who come, many of which are scouts and their parents who, for whatever reason, did not go as jamboree participants. It all depends on your kids and if they will be embarrased, as well as would they want to hang around with the folks, or speand time on the many activities at Jambo.

Participants must be 12 and First Class. They will mature between now and then, so don't assume they will be the same as they are now. If you think this is too soon for them, the next jamboree will be in 2013 or 14, when they will be 15/16. To answer your questions: "1. go as 'visitors'- would the boys be able to participate in any of the events?" Going as a visitor is an option. NO, they will NOT be able to participate in any event. The Jamboree activities are for Jamboree participants. National really only wants scouts to visit for a couple of days, no more. You can see all the activities and the shows, but don't expect to participate. Further, being a visitor does NOT entitle one to wear the Jamboree participant patch above the right pocket. They have, at the last couple of jamborees, made a visitor patch. Its worn ON the right pocket, like any other temporary patch. "2. sign them up, pay the full fee, but keep them in a nearby hotel/ family campground with us most nights so they don't 'forget' to return to thier tents, wander off in the woods because they aren't paying attention, ect. " No, no, no. Doesn't work that way. Scouts go as part of a troop contingent. They will travel with that contingent and stay with that contingent. What you are proposing will NOT be allowed. This will be 12 yo 1st class scouts, not 10 year old Webelos. They will also be buddied up with other scouts, and be carrying id with them. This sort of stuff shouldn't happen.

"It is sad that in a youth oriented organization, that there are few youth who sit on the executive board." Its interesting (or sad) that apparently youth have much more of an involvement in the organization. They will have youth sitting on their boards, even setup a youth representative group to ensure their feedback. Also, the adult leaders are usually younger then in the US, with people in their 20s and 30s being the typical age, instead of the 40s 50s that we seem to lean toward. Something to think about.

"Do Girl Scouts have to be dual registered?" The BSA and GSUSA are separate organizations, thus for a girl to earn the Girl Scout Gold Award, she will need to be registered as a girl scout. The Boy Scout Program and the Venturing Program are just separate programs within the BSA. This part of how boys who are only registered in a Venturing Crew can earn Eagle (and still be in the OA, etc). They are STILL registered in the BSA. Also, since Explorers are NOT registered in the BSA, if one is ONLY an Explorer, you can't earn eagle or be in the OA.

"I seem to have heard something about a Doctor of Commissioner's Science Knot too. Anyone know anything about that one? " No idea if its been approved, etc. I did see a document on-line that gave the requirements for it. A LOT more then just getting a Doctorate in Commissioner Science. There is also commissioner tenure and service as part of it, so its very similiar to the Distinguished Commissioner Award.