emb021

Building off of what FScouter stated (note, nothing he posted is incorrect). There was a period of time in the 80s and 90s when we were allowed to wear a National and World Jamboree patch side by side above the right pocket. At some point (mid-1990s?), they decided to drop that practice, and if you want to wear both a National and World Jamboree patch on your uniform at the same time, the National one goes above the pocket, the World on the pocket. If you want to wear just ONE Jamboree patch (whether National or World) it goes above the pocket. At the recent World Jamboree, there seemed to be some confusion amoung some scouts/scouters about wearing the World Jamboree patch and the BSA Contingent patch. The WSJ was to go above the pocket, the BSA contingent on the pocket, but some got confused and I saw a few with the BSA contingent patch above the pocket and similiar nonsense. I have also come across stuff now and then where people were wearing other patches above the right pocket (not speaking of the intepreter strip or the Venture or Varsity strips, which are ok). AFAIK, they aren't always allowed: * various "International Jamborees". If its a Jamboree of a foreign country, I think it would be ok to wear above the right pocket. Nothing says that the 'National Jamboree' patch you wear must be from the US. An 'international camporee' IMO doesn't count. * Gettysburg Historical Trails patch. I've run into people wearing it above the right pocket, claiming that 'someone' (no idea who) got permission from National (uh, and this is stated WHERE?) that these patches can be worn above the right pocket. Never seen proof of this, so am doubteful.

"The first thing I'd do differently is to recruit people who have experience with running trainings in their day jobs, whenever possible." I would disagree with that. There are many people who do training as their 'day job' who are frankly poor trainers/teachers. I know of many people who do training/presenting not as their paid job, but as part of what they do with various orgs. There are many opportunities to becoming an excellent trainer (Toastmasters, etc) for such people. You would eliminate many BSA trainers (many of the best) with such a policy, and strickly limit who could be a trainer. Not a good idea. "The second thing I'd do differently is to insist that they be brought onto the training team well in advance, rather than 2 days before, or worse yet, the day of the training." Would agree. Training events go on the calender several months out. By that time the staff for the event should have been lined up and ideally, a good percentage of these people should be experienced with the materials. (always good to have a mix of experienced with new people, so the new people become experiences, but with enough experiences people that they can step and help so the participants get good training). Sadly it seems some training (usually the lower level basic stuff), seems thrown together at the last minute.

Well, the term I would use is 'stewardship'. In my Fraternity, we teach a set of characteristics that go along with servant leadership, one of them being 'stewardship'. The big point I make with our members is that while the chapters are 'owned' by the student members, they really should think of themselves as stewards. Those who came before them have passed along the chapter (and its care etc) to them, and they are responsible for maintaing and preserving that chapter and passing it along to their successors. Whereas if we speak of 'owning it', then we can do whatever we want to with it, including destroying it. So there should be a higher level of responsibility.

"What gave anyone the idea that you could only have one Venture Patrol?" Well, part of the problem is the lack of much info on the Venture Patrol and how to properly run it. I agree with the admonition of training, but afaik, there is very little training on how to use the Venture program. This lack of clear understanding of it has been a major problem with it almost from the begining, and not helped in the last few years with even less information.

"EMB knows what he's talking about and I seem to recall he's a regional director of the National Association of Parlimentarians. If you choose to get into it with him he could surely rip you to shreads. OGE could do the same." Sorry, but I'm not a regional director for NAP. I'm a member of NAP and AIP (American Institute of Parliamentarians) and currently the VP of my local NAP unit. But nothing further. I hope to become an RP and CP, but nothing further. "Wow! That's something that I want to aspire to! Then I could say "parlypro" too! " And your point it? "parliamentary procedure" is just too much of a mouthful, and many of us say or type 'parlypro' to short things. "Emb021, close but not quite" OGE, I wasn't incorrect in my comment about "Call the Question". Yes, you fully covered the topic, but I was just giving a quick and dirty answer, and didn't want to get into the nittygritty of moving the previous question. "But if its not taught amymore, or ever, why would we want to follow it?" Regardless of it not being taught anymore in schools, it IS something that is needed. NAP and AIP teach people this skill (as do other groups) because organization do use it. HOA/COA and such are mandated by law to follow it. And most societies and orgs use it, and the courts have stated that orgs must follow commonly accepted parliamentary law.

"Sigh. I'm quoting from Roberts Rules of Order. Lah me, another Scouter who can't read." GW, if you want to quote from RONR, here's a better one: "The application of parliamentary law is the best method yet devised to enable assemblies of any size, with due regard for every members opinion, to arrive at the general will on the maximum number of questions of varying complexity in a minimum amount of time and under all kinds of internal climate ranging from total harmony to hardened or impassioned division of opinion." Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised [RONR (10th ed.), Introduction, p. xlviii]

""Sigh. What a poor understanding of parliamentary procedure." "Sigh. I'm quoting from Roberts Rules of Order. Lah me, another Scouter who can't read. " I can read. My comment was on the general lack of understanding of parlypro. I don't have my copy of RONR to quote from (it in my NAP bookbag at home). We like to say that parlypro is the following (taken from FSAP's website): Definitions: "Parliamentary law" is: *Rules of the game of democracy. *Rules that govern procedures by which civil and criminal laws are made and adopted. *Rules and customs that govern deliberative and decision-making assemblies and organizations. "Parliamentary procedure", often used interchangeably with "parliamentary law," is more correctly defined as parliamentary law in combination with the rules of order that a given assembly or organization has adopted. Objectives Parliamentary procedure is the means by which organizations make decisions. It comprises the laws and rules that govern business transactions. Principles Parliamentary law is based upon *The will of the majority; *The right of the minority to be heard; *Protection of the rights of absentees; *Courtesy and justice for all; and *Consideration of one subject at a time. Are there meetings in scouting that should use parlypro? Yes. Are there meetings in scouting that don't need parlypro? Sure. Sadly, too many in scouting don't understand the difference. The key is if you are making decisions, you should be using parlypro. If your not, you don't need to. (tho following meeting decorum, something we follow with parlypro, does help)

""Roberts Rules are not taught in High School much anymore I gather." "They weren't in my day." Nor in mine, nor today. However, kids that get involved in certain groups, like FFA, will get introduced to it. FFA (and some other groups) actually run parliamentary contests, and are a great way to introduce kids to parliamentary procedure. Scouting, too, could be a way to introduce it to kids if it wasn't for adults who are not very knowledgable about it misinforming them or giving them negative impressions. "" could identify when to use or what "Call the Question" means."" The "question" is the motion being discussed. Call the Question is properly "Move the previous question" which is when you want to end debate and force a vote on the motion.

"emb021 "The BSA Rules and Regulations ARE in one place. The document is #57-492. The last version I have is dated July 2003. You can get it and the BSA Charter and Bylaws (#57-491) for about $5 from National. There used to be an address you could request it from." Can you help me find these. I searched www.scout.org and www.scoutstuff.org and could not find these to order. " I see you didn't bother to read my message. As others have pointed out, items with a number of xx-xxx are bin literature items. YOU CAN NOT ORDER THESE FROM SCOUTSTUFF. Most bin literature items must be ordered thru your council office. As I noted in my message, these 2 documents can be ordered from a separate address at National for about $5 total. I can't find that address at present, but I've ordered from it twice (the second time to get the 2003 editions). Now, personally, I think National should make these 2 docs available thru National Supple like they did in the old days, but for whatever reason they don't. (all the orgs I'm a member of either provides every member with a membership booklet, including the orgs bylaws and such, or makes them available easily, say thru their website).

As others have pointed out: * do not confuse Venture with Venturing. * you can have more then one Venture Patrol. Venture patrols are noted by the venture strip, not patrol medallions. (wonder why?) Also the leader of a Venture patrol is a patrol leader, not a president.

"I don't know if you need to go with "Roberts Rules of Order" (Who was Robert anyway?) Actually, according to my summary of RROO, they have no place in a Scouting meeting since they say "The conduct of ALL business is controlled by the general will of the whole membership - the right of the deliberate majority to decide." which isn't the way that Scouting works." Sigh. What a poor understanding of parliamentary procedure. Parly pro has been around for several hundred years. Roberts just wrote what has become the most well known enunciation of parliamentary procedure (what is known as a 'parliamentary authority') now known as "Robert's Rules of Order, Newly Revised" (RONR). The purpose of parliamentary procedure is to have a set of rules by which a 'deliberative assembly' (ie a group that comes together to made decisions) can conduct business. If you have a group that is NOT setup to making decisions, then, no, you don't need parlypro. I have rarely been to any District Committee Meetings in which I felt that they needed to use parlypro. That does not say that there are NOT meeting within Scouting that parlypro IS needed. Its needed at Lodge Business Meetings and LEC Meetings. At Council Board Meetings. At Crew Business Meetings and VOA Meetings. And similiar such meetings where decisions are made. "3. Roberts' Rules are too complex for small groups of mere mortals. Unless you have an experienced parliamentarian on board." Oh, sorry, incorrect. Parlypro can be used with any size group, from a handful to several hunderd. With a large number, you need more elaborate rules, but for a small number (less then 12) you can be more informal. This is covered in Roberts.

B-P House and Gilwell. Having visited both during the WSJ last summer, I'll comment. B-P House is mainly a hostel/conference center. There is some scouting stuff, but not much. I wouldn't go out of my way to visit it, but if you can swing by it while visiting museums (the natural history museum is near by), I'd say go for it. Gilwell has more stuff worth seeing and visiting. There is sadly a very small museum there. But you can see the Buffalo in the Buffalo lawn, the Leopard Gate, the Ideal Boy Scout statue near the lid, the B-P bust from Mexico, the cast of B-P's foot print, the World Jamboree sign posts and more. There is a nice booklet on Gilwell, which gives a guided tour of the many things to see. Prehaps try to get a copy first and review it. You could spend a few hours visiting the various sites there.

"make a luggage tag with the 10 essentials. Great idea and thanks for posting." Actually, you can print up the tags, then go to an office supply store (Office Max, Office Depot) and get them to make them into laminated luggage tags. And you'll get nice plastic loops to attach them to the bag. (you'll need to have the paper tags within certain dimensions). We made tags for the WSJ and it was pretty inexpensive.

Sigh. The BSA Rules and Regulations ARE in one place. The document is #57-492. The last version I have is dated July 2003. You can get it and the BSA Charter and Bylaws (#57-491) for about $5 from National. There used to be an address you could request it from. Nothing earth shattering or the like. The BSA's attitude is that those R&R us rank and file types need will be repeated in the various booklets (Council, District, Advancement Committee, Leadership Training, Insignia Guide, etc).

Am aware of the original program colors. I won't hold my breath that this will change... Yes, the green on green with the Venturing shirt is a little problematic. You have some crews that won't wear the green loops because they think they are redundant.

"Is there any rumors about changes to the venturing and cub scout uniforms?" Everything I've heard says there are no plans for any changes in these uniforms. For Venturing, there is talk of charcoal gray switchbacks coming soon. "If the green sholder loops are the standard, will that mean that cub scout leaders and webelos need to cut over to green?" Uh, why? Forest green loops will indicate the person is a Boy Scout or a Boy Scout unit leader. Cub scouts leaders and webelos will still wear blue. Council district silver, national regional gold.

"I have noticed over many years that people (especially the young) learn more from making mistakes and having to correct them than from just rote learning and reguritating thing without understanding." This is known as experiential learning. Facilitation has a big role to play in this. Sadly, there isn't a big use of experiential learning, and its tough to teach people facilitation skills. There are groups out there that use it, but its not as wide spread as it should be. Its used heavily in various outdoor-based programs, but not as much in scouting as it should be.

Update FWIW. Did some checking on-line. The next WSJ is apparently going to be in 2015. The site will be determined by the next World Scout Conference that is coming up in July (next month) in South Korea. the 2 main contenders are Singapore and Japan. Both have websites promoting their bids. (there may be other bids, but I have no idea who). (I had heard that both Japan and Singapore were bidding against Sweden for 2011, and while the Singapore bid was very strong and the Swedish one very weak, that somehow Sweden won the bid.) So we should soon know when/where the 25th WSJ will be held. I've heard rumors (fairly certain they are true) that the BSA has stated they intend to put in a bid for the following WSJ (2019 I assume), that will be held on their new Jamboree site they are looking for. We'll see how that shakes out.

"The attitude of the Executive Board is that any appropriation or subsidy made by the government for the benefit of the Boy Scout Movement would necessarily impose restrictions and limitations, and involve the organization in obligations to follow the dictates of the federal government even to the extent, possibly, of conflicting with the fundamental policies on which the Boy Scout Movement is organized." And they would not be wrong in that view. There are a few colleges/universities who refuse to accept any federal funding, because doing so would give the government cause to impose various policies on them. Even having their students accept federal subsidies would impose the same thing, so they work to provide scholarships so their students can avoid this. Government money always comes with strings attached, for good or ill.

"Only 2hr of work then get back together into large groups. None of the isolation others describe. Is this not normal now? or just our area." In my area, work is a full day. Unless they run out of things to do, you're pretty much busy until atleast mid-afternoon. Not sure what you mean by isolation. As this is an open forum, I'd rather not speak too much about what the ordeal is and does. Most ordeals you will be working with others, anywhere from half dozen to 20 or more, depending on the job.

My understand is the increased cost of living in the area was also having a negative effect. The area was being very built up. While Schiff Scout Reservation was fairly close by, it was a long drive time-wise due to increased traffic. Irving was more centrally located. I know of several non-profits who are based in Kansas City for similiar reasons (Camp Fire USA is there). Cost of living was better. Sadly, the move necessitated the shutting down of Schiff and all the affects of that. While PTC is now our center for training, I don't know if it really fully replaced what we had there. The lost of the museum was also an effect. While I only visited the new one in Murphy, KY once, I heard stories of those who were familiar with the Johnston one, that it paled in comparison. (I heard the Johnston family was nearly in tears over the difference). We also lost our International scout hostel as well.

"Do awards currently exist that are more geared for philanthropic rather than active service?" These already exist and have been mentioned. And there is nothing stopping council from creating local awards to recognize donors as well (and many do). There is the James West Fellowship Award ($1000), 1910 Society, and Founder's Circle Award ($100,000). The FC has 4 levels as well. There are also a set of recognitions for those given deferred donations as well.

"Sadly, he was apparently very whiny and jealous of his status among the other founding fathers." Well, Seton could be the same way. Just read his bios (even the bio on West spoke of the issues between the 2). Would love to learn more about Beard's work with the Culver school's summer camp program. I know that he used to visit my home council area in SW Florida during the winters for years. When the local scout people discovered he had never received a Silver Beaver, they tried to give him one, but National wouldn't let them.

FWIW- Many organizations have recognition/awards for those donating money to the organization's endowement at different levels. Encouraging people to present these 'awards' on behalf of others is also done, and I think a good thing. All orgs need money, and I find nothing wrong with this. I don't mind the West award and all the rest. I like the fact that now with the existance of such awards, that it reduces the need to give out DAM and Beavers and the like to people who mainly/only give money, and allows these awards to go to more volunteers who are giving more 'sweet equity' then cash. I'm not sure how I feel about the fact that the West award has a knot, but its a done deal. Not too keen on the NESA Life Member knot, tho or this new PTC knot.

At most scouting events I've been, its been accepted policy that only plain or scouting-related t-shirts are acceptable. No one claims its some kind of National policy, just that its accepted policy at that event. No one is punished or tossed out of the event for not following it. Seems that some want to make a mountain out of a mole-hill.