emb021

Good thing they are redesigning it. Looks like a badly done private issue knot.

Sorry, but have to agree with BW. Invoking 'boy led' is a poor justification for not following uniforming policies (or any other scouting policies for that matter). No sash is worn from the belt, nor has it ever been. OA sashs are only to be worn at OA functions or when you are doing stuff on behalf of the OA. This has ALWAYS been OA policy. There are already items on your uniform that show your OA membership: you flap and the arrow dangle. Insisting that you also need to wear the sash to indicate OA membership is a bit silly. Personally, I prefer to see boys wearing their merit badge sashes at courts of honor. Why? Because there are really few times when its appropriate for them to wear them (get really sick of seeing kids wear them at events like jamboree, camporees, or scout shows). So wear the merit badge sash at court of honor and not the OA sash.

"Our DE said there has been back and forth and confusion on the Cub Scout blue uniform. Latest I heard is blue uniforms will keep the red and white numbers and Webelos that buy the tan shirts will get the tan and green numbers. " In speaking with the people in our local scout shop, that seems to be what NS is doing. The red and white numbers will still be around for the cub scout and venturing uniforms.

"Just how old was BP when he dreamed up this concept????? I think it's time to back off us old guys. There are some of us who are in touch with how today's youth think and are more than willing to add excitement to the program." It's not just B-P. You have Ernest Thompson Seton, who established his Woodcraft Indians in 1902 or so, in his mid-40s. He never had child (tho would much later adopt). You have Daniel Carter Beard, who established his Sons of Daniel Boone in his mid-50s. No idea if he had any children. And don't forget Green Bar Bill. He came out of retirement to write the 9th edition in his late 70s. No children either. Being 'old' or having no children doesn't mean one is 'out of touch with youth'. Am sure there are many younger adults and some with children who are more out of touch with youth then those older and with no children.

"I have been told as far as tenure goes you can not double dip. For example, a Scoutmaster can not use his time for the Training Knot (2 years) and then incorporate that into the Scouters Key (3 years). It would take him 5 years to earn both, not 3." Your example is incorrect, and the literature states clearly states that a SM CAN use his time for both the Training Award and Key at the same time. For some reason, this is NOT stated for Varsity Scout Coach, Venturing Advisor or Sea Scout Skipper, which I think is either a major oversight, or very unfair.

Official uniforms are always official uniforms. The old uniform will never stop being an official uniform. I am sure that National would prefer that scouts have the current uniform for use at the jamboree. As its 2 years away, am sure most scouts will have at least one by that time. I know when I went as a scout to the 1981 Jamboree, I had to get the then new 'oscar de larente' uniform to go. It could be up to the local councils. They may mandate that participants go in the current uniform only. However, I do recall a troop of scouts at the last jamboree who all wore the previous pre-odl uniform that didn't have a collar (because you were supposed to wear a neckerchief).

Two comments about the BSA Uniform PDF. * while they showed the new Trained strip on the sleeve pocket flap, I didn't see anything that pointed out what it was or what the order number was. * the inconsistancy in showing the placement of the World Crest was pretty bad. Too many of the shirts had it too close to the pocket (prehaps so it would be under the collar? It doesn't help get people to wear it in the right place when they do cr*p like that.

This is actually a continuation of policy that dates back to the 1930s or so. Back then, National allowed boys who were Sea Scouts or in other senior programs to be able to go on and earn Star, Life, and Eagle, without ever having been a Boy Scout. They also allowed older boys to earn any of the Senior program advancement (Sea, Air, Explorer Scouts) in any program, including Boy Scouts. During the 1960s when National got rid of the Explorer advancement progam, they came up with a special set of requirements to allow Explorers who had never been Boy Scouts to earn Eagle.

I, too, saw the new uniform in our local scout shop. The american flag seems to be made of some kind of woven patch, but glued/attached in some manner to the shirt and not sewn on. The "Boy Scouts of America" is attached the same way, not embroidered. Am really concern with how that holds up. I have to think they tested it, etc, but we'll see. Belt looks nice. Nice and hefty buckle on it. They had the numerals and trained strip. They will be keeping the old red/white numerals and older trained strips for the cub scout and venturing uniforms. But the red loops are gone. No idea of any new Insignia Guide. The employee at the show didn't know of any new literature items coming out.

"Is this the first time the uniforms changed in Sea Scouting over the last 90 plus years, or had they changed before? Based on a display on unforms I saw once it appears it has changed a few times, not unlike other BSA uniforms...is that correct?" The Sea Scout uniforms have changed over the years, but the recent changed is the first in several years, and in some cases are a bit radical. From what I have been able to piece together (all covered at my website): 1912-17: Honestly don't know what the Sea Scout uniform was during this period. 1917-24: Kimo Wilder period. Sea Scouts work khaki crackerjacks with navy blue pocket flaps and navy blue collar flaps (no idea what the correct term for this is). Adults seem to wear navy yachtsman uniforms, but many be incorrect. Uncertain of insignia or its placement. Have some scans, but unclear of what is what. 1924-30s. Commander Keane revamped uniforms, basing it on naval uniforms. Youth wore crackerjacks, adults wore officer uniforms. Some insignia placement DOESN'T match BSA placement (office patches on right sleeve, rank on sleeves, etc). Adults had strips, which were confusing with navy personnel. 1940s or so. New adult office patches put in place around 1942. Insignia placement also changes to bring placement in line with rest of BSA. (if you compare the Sea Scout manuals of the 30s and 40s, you'll see the changes I speak of. I need to scan and add to my website). For this time forward, the Sea Scout/Sea Explorer uniform has been about the same. In the 70s or so, they did allow for youth to wear white uniforms like the adults. More options were available for uniforms. HOWEVER, since 1998, the National Sea Scout Committee has made some radical changes. They dropped stuff that's been in place since the days of Keane, dropped certain uniform options (no youth wearing white uniforms like the adults, no black uniforms for adults), made additions like the black epaulet covers and medal office pins, etc. While I don't have a problem with some of the additions, I DO have a problem with some of things they've dropped.

"The crest is not embroidered on the new shirt. Same patch as is now. Boy Scouts of America, however, is embroidered directly on the shirt - as oppposed to a sewn on strip." Uh, the BSA is NOT embroidered on the shirt. I took a good look at one in our scout shop. It seems glued on in some way. "The flag is attached to the sleeve, not sewn." The flag is some kind of woven affair, and attached in a similiar manner as the BSA 'strip'.

"What is the Brotherhood Hike?" Its an optional part of the Brotherhood Ceremony, in which those who are going to go thru the ceremony are taken on a short hike on the way to the ceremony ring, and the person leading them stops along the way to impart of some inspiring thoughts, or the like. I believe its fully covered in the literature. Its part of the extended elongamat program, I believe.

"What "naval issue"? As far keeping the uniform from looking like a Navy uniform, it would seem to me that the "Sea Scouts BSA" strip alone takes care of that, not to mention all the First Class Anchors on the collar and hat, and the ship patch on the sleeve." Actually, you are supposed to do more then that to avoid the issue. * Navy crackerjacks you remove the middle strip from the sleeves and collar flap, and cover up the stars on the flap with the small sea scout 'bugs'. * White crackerjacks you cover up the stars on the flap with the small sea scout 'bugs'. * adult officer patches were changed from the sea scout emblem with strips to the current stars with the emblem with rope oval or diamond. * campaign ribbons are not allowed. So Sea Scouts aren't to wear the bronze or gold award ribbons. I'll have to check my SSM, but am fairly certain the Council strip is NOT forbidden on the white uniform.

"Your Mission is to read the context I went back to the beginning of the thread and re-read. "Mr Kudu has a near-fetish against the Leadership Development Method currently part of the Boy Scouting program. Mr emb021 used your program as a specific responsory back to Mr kudu as a near-parody of the comments Mr kudu often makes. "Though I know Mr emb021 only from here, I suspect he has some small degree of regard for your program " John-in-KC's assessment is essentially correct. I am familiar with WS, even having copies of the 2 books you used to print and sell. When I was at an event when one of the National big-wigs was at, speaking about the upcoming WB/NYLT, I showed him my copies and recommened that they check out your program and incorporate it, rather then chuck it for the latest leadership fads.

Well, to build on what Eamonn stated. Here in the US, when we started the various other programs, they were: * Rover Scouts * Sea Scouts * Air Scouts * Explorer Scouts * Senior Scouts * Cub Scouts All building off that 'scout' name. In 1949, it was decided that Senior Scouts became Explorers, with Air Scouts and Sea Scouts becoming Air Explorers and Sea Explorers. The program became Exploring in 1959, so Post were to be called "Exploring Posts", not "Explorer Posts" (tho that term is historically correct, so so would use it), which is kind of a basis for "Venturing", with that -ING end, plus "Venturing Crews" and not "Venturer Crews". I know that in the 1970s or so, National was pretty clear that Explorers were NOT to be referred to as "Explorer Scouts". For good or bad, they were trying to make it clear that Explorers were NOT scouts, and create a separate between Exploring and the rest of the BSA (Cub & Boy Scouts). What makes it more messy was National changing the in-troop older boy program from "Leadership Corps" to "Venture" in 1989. So that tied up that term. So it didn't help things when they rolled out Venturing to replace Exploring in 1998, with the close terms. I've heard the term "Venture Scouts" used by some BSA people for both Venturers and members of Venture Patrols. National is quite clear in the "Language of Scouting" that the term "Venture Scout" is NOT to be used. Of course, overseas, many scout associations call their older youth programs Venture or Venturing. What I find really funnny, is that very recently, the UK Scout Association renamed Venture Scouts to.... Explorer Scouts!

"There are no temporary patches, no unit numbers, no council strip, no beads, no OA flaps or devices, on the work uniform. The Sea Scout manual is specific about this. At the Seabadge I attended faculty wore Sea Scout khakis with OA strips, temporary patches, knots, Council Strips, unit numbers etc etc. It was disappointing. It speaks to the credibility and knowledge of the trainer and what it says is not good. " Actually, I have a different take on this. Part of this is based on the fact that the current edition of SSM makes some changes to the Sea Scout uniform that have been in place since the 1940s if not back to the 1920s. Further, while the Sea Scout uniform is based on naval uniforms, certain things were done to the uniform (removal of certain items, placement of certain items) to help ensure the uniform is NOT mistaken for naval uniforms. * temporary patches. Uh, I see many sea scouts and leaders wear them, including national level people. I see no issue with them, as it helps to avoid being to naval. * no unit numbers. This is a very recent change, and one which I (and many other leaders) disagree with. They've been part of the sea scout uniform and should be restored. Also helps to avoid the 'naval issue'. * no council strip. I don't believe those are forbidden on any sea scout uniform. * no beads. I don't wear them on my sea scout uniform, haven't met any sea scout leader who did. * no flaps. I wear them and know others (include a regional commodore) that does. Again, helps to avoid the 'naval issue'. * knots. I don't agree with the prohibition on wearing them on the work (khaki/tan) uniform. I know many who wear them. Officers wear their ribbons on the tan uniform, so why can we wear our knots? Bottom line, I really don't agree with the attitude that the adult work (tan/khaki) uniform is to be fairly stripped of items. It looks just too naval, and feel that's a mistake. So on mine I wear: * collar pins (2 star squadron ones from Ship's Store) on collar * american flag & sea scout emblem on navy on right sleeve * council strip & squadron committee office patch on navy on left sleeve. * sea badge pin, name tag, OA flap, and temporary patch around right pocket area (only wear temporary patches with loops, never sew anything down), along with sea scout strip on tan. * world crest, tan-backed knots (only have 4), and powder horn dangle around left pocket. I do wear tan web belt with sea scout buckle, but I (horrors!!) wear tan shorts. (also wear white shorts when I do whites). As far as I'm concerned, I'm only doing 3 things 'wrong' (world crest, powder horn, and oa flap). Since I see other sea scout leaders from many areas wear things similiarly, and who I feel have much more experience and knowledge in the program, I think I'm probably in good company. (and frankly I wish the National Sea Scout Committee would restore some things to the uniform!)

"In our council, NYLT Pack and Paddle is an opportunity for 14 yr olds and up to take the NYLT course in a somewhat more challenging setting. I knew not everybody did this version, but are you telling me nobody else does this?" Never heard of anyone doing it, but think it a great idea. Similiar to the 'Walking Wood Badge' course that is occasionally done at Philmont. My only concern is you might be 'competing' in a way with NAYLE and its delivery method, such that your graduates wouldn't want to go to NAYLE or think it a 'let down' to your course. Personally, I think the idea of allowing local councils to add some local 'flavor' to their NYLT courses, including name, is a good thing. Mandating that they include "NYLT" in the name is the right idea. I'm not in total agreement with everyone having to use ONLY the name NYLT. I do get a little tired of people refering to their JLTC/NYLT course ONLY by the local name (ie 'Silver Acorn' instead of 'NYLT-Silver Acorn' or the like) and being totally ignorant of the 'real' name of the program (NYLT). I wonder if that is part of the reason for the new mandate. I find it sad when BS leaders who should have learned the youth leadership track (TLT, NYLT, NAYLE) in their training (or heck read about it in Scouting) are totally ignorant of it.

" "The current SSM is pretty clear on what are the uniform options for youth and adults, males and females." It is? Must be a misprint. It will be corrected soon. And then we still have the option to modify our uniforms and many units seem to do so." Yes. The SSM is pretty clear with illustrations of the proper uniforms for youth (male & female) and adults (male and female), and further give clear directions on what does (and does not) go on what uniform in what location. There are certain items that are only to be worn on certain uniforms. AND certain items that are worn in different locations on different uniforms. While I have my issues with some of this, its pretty clear. More so then in the Insignia Guide. "And then we still have the option to modify our uniforms and many units seem to do so." Correct. What is proscribed in the SSM is the 'national sea scout uniform' which is MANDATED at any National sea scout event (like the Koch Cup and the Sea Scout exhibit at National Jamboree, etc), and MAYBE mandated at some regional events. No one is going after ships from not ridgidly following what's in the SSM, BUT if you attend certain events you WILL be told you MUST have the 'national uniform'. And should be prepared for the consequences if you don't... "At the Seabadge training I attended most the staff wore incorrect uniforms treating the Sea Scout Adult Work Uniform (Khaki) shirt as a Boy Scout Uniform shirt hanging all kinds of things on it that did not belong on a Sea Scout Uniform." I can do you one better. We have an old Sea Scouter in my area who wears the Boy Scout Uniform shirt as if it was the Sea Scout Adult Working Uniform (Khaki). He replaced the shirt strip, but the empty epaulets just look sooo wrong. My Dickies tan shirt looks so much better... (and am curious as to what these things they are hanging off the uniform are. I wear the OA flap on my sea scout uniform [others do as well], the world crest [ditto] and powder horn badge, but that's it for non-Sea Scout stuff. I do so partially to ensure the uniform looks less navy. But I won't wear my beads. Plus I feel the World Crest belongs on the Sea scout uniform.)

I'm with John. While Venturing is 10 years old, the roots of the program go back to the 1920/30s. Further when you factor in Sea Scouts. When it was rolled out in 1998, a good chunk of it was just the previous Exploring program with a few additions (revamped advancement program, use of Roundtables & Commissioners brought back, use of charcoal gray pants/shorts). In my mind, Venturing is only 'new' to people who were aware ONLY of their program, whether Cub Scouting or Boy Scouting, and are totally ignorant of the full spectrum of scouting. (h*ll, I was shocked recently that a coworker who is a scouter had never heard of Philmont, after being a BS leader for several years). While I don't disagree that some of our terms can be confusing, I do think it important the people DO use the terms correctly. Pointing this out to people does NOT automatically constitue 'jumping' on them. I fail to see how a reminder at the end of a post of "please use Venturing and not Venture" is 'jumping' on someone. An occasional slip of the tongue/typewriter is one thing. To constently use the wrong terms, or worse use them in printed materials (brochures, flyers, cards, etc), it different. It DOES cause confusion. We STILL deal with people who think a Venture Patrol is just 'Venturing in a troop' and all that that means because of the similiar terms.

Like some others, I remained active as best I could after 'ageing out'. During college was semi-active, mainly during the summer. I tried a little to be active at college, but was miles away and had little money or time to be active with a local unit. After college I've remained active. Similiar to kb6jra's experience, I found some older scouters weren't as welcoming as others. I was very disappointed to be turned down for a position on the Jamboree contingent in 1989 because other leaders thought I was 'too young' (this after just going thru WB). FWIW, I went as staff. Now adays my problems are more with other leaders who seem to expect everyone is involved with a unit (tho you know many aren't), and pass me over for stuff because I'm not (as if that makes any difference).

Except that you don't need to wear your sash to indicate your membership in the lodge. Your Flap and OA ribbon do that just fine.

For Sea Scouts, there are 6 uniforms: Adults wear one of 3 uniforms: summer tan, summer white, and dress blues. The summer tan is the 'adult work uniform', not the chambray (sp) blue uniform. Youth wear one of 3 uniforms: white 'crackerjacks', blue 'crackerjacks', and chambray blue work uniform. Keep in mind that adult uniforms are based on navy officer uniforms, and youth on navy enlisted uniforms. I do see some Ships have adults wear chambray blue and Ships were youth wear white uniforms similiar to the adult uniform. I also see adults in black shirts and pants (usually out west). All incorrect, but so be it. The current SSM is pretty clear on what are the uniform options for youth and adults, males and females.

"I didnt think there was such a thing as a Venturing Roundtable, A Venturing Forum perhaps but a rose by any other name... " When Venturing was rolled out 10 years ago, they rolled out Venturing Roundtables. They put out a Venturing Roundtable Guide in 2000. Last year (2007), they decided to rename them "Monthly Forums" and rolled out a retitled VRG under the name "Venturing Monthly Program Forum" Most people who have been involved with Venturing more then a year or so call them Roundtables, because calling them Forums is a very recent change...

"Can anyone figure out based on the org chart figure out where either adult or youth training belongs? It looks like it might belong under Innovation and Strategy, which is "responsible for the ongoing evolution of the Scouting program." " No idea. A lot is unclear on this chart. There is supposed to be a single training group for all programs, but no idea where it sits. Also unclear is where the OA and NESA are placed. There is also a question on if they are going to keep the various national standing committeess (of volunteers) or re-org them or what. (will there still be a National Sea Scout Committee, National Venturing Committee, etc?). This was unclear after All Hands, but supposedly will be known tomorrow (8/12) after a meeting of everyone at the National Office.

"I don't know how Venturing is run in any other Council, I can only go on my experience. When I was Venturing Chair, the only people interested in being on the Council Venturing Committee were Venturing adults who were also active on the local unit level. In the Council I serve, District and Council Committees are usually filled with adults who no longer have youth in the program." There do exist venturing adults who aren't active in local units, etc. I am an example of such. "Since there were no Ventuting Scouters whose youth had aged out of the program as yet, there wasnt a lot of people to pull from who had Venturing experience so I thought going to the Council Committees assigned the role of training and camping would be a good idea. On the Council Chart I was given, it said Training Committe, not Cub and Boy Scout Training Committee, I thought they were to service Venturing as well or at least help." You are correct. It's the Training Committee. Ideally, the training committee should be providing cub scout AND boy scout AND venturing training. By people who know the program(s). (ie, no Boy Scout person providing Venturing training with no understand of Venturing, etc_ And if they aren't, this is why a Council Venturing Committee (CVC) is needed to step in and make it happens. "Similarly the Camping Committee is not labeled Cub and Boy Scout Camping, I thought they could/should help Venturing out. Instead, Venturing was regarded as the step child that volunteers didnt understand, and still dont and many dont want to try to understand." Sadly, true. Again, why CVC are many times needed. "So, what happened? Venturing has developed as a step child. We have separate Roundtables/Forums from the Cub and Boy Scouts. We have our own Training Committee, we have our own Activities Committee. All duplications of exisitng committees that serve to only enhance the separation and increase the sense of isolation and I dont think thats the way its supposed to work." Well, in most cases because we are a step child, we have to step up and provide our own support until we can get that support moved into the proper committees. You can either sit there and what for the support to magically appear (like some people seem to do) or you can make it happen (like many people try to do). However, it should be done in conjunction with those committees. The training person on the CVC should ALSO be on the council training committee. The camping person on the CVC should ALSO be on the council camping committee, etc. If that is not happening, then, yes, you are creating that true separation. We should have separate Venturing Roundtables only to the extent that Cub Scout & Boy Scout Roundtables are 'separate': they are run in separate rooms. VRT have the extra 'strangeness' that you have youth officers there, along with the adults. All of this will be covered more clearly in the new edition of the "Here's Venturing" book coming out this fall, and is the topic of the training event at PTC on "Delivering Venturing to your District/Council" which they've been running for several years. I will also point out that Sea Scouts have had their own committees at council, area, regional, and national since the 20s. It has worked for them, and IMO, the long-term survival of that program over the years has been due to their existance...