emb021

Seriously, the "WWW" refers to the OA's real or secret name, only known to members. "Order of the Arrow" is the public name. There is nothing sinister about this. This is very similiar to college fraternities/sororities. The greek letters that make up their 'name' are really the initials of their secret name. For instance, Phi Beta Kappa, is the initials of the phrase "philosophia biou kubernetes", which means "love of learning is the guide to life". So "Phi Beta Kappa" is the public expression of their private name, "philosophia biou kubernetes".

"Do you have any Sea Scout Leaders Speciffic training on power point? I looked on Scout Stuff and they do not have a CD or anything." Scout Stuff (National Supply) does not carry that syllabus. Go to the Sea Scout website (www.seascouts.org) and go into the Training area. You will find the syllabus, including the PPT. "So would the venturing uniform be ok to wear for this event?" Within the Southern Region, Venturing leaders attending Seabadge is ok, and they wear the Venturing uniform. If you check the course photos at the SR Sea Scout page (sregion.seascout.org), you will see several Venturing leaders in the pictures wearing green.

"Perhaps the Wiccans and their Scouts need to get together and develop an award if they feel a need for one." Actually, they already did.

"Yes the southern region. Yes I have contacted the POCs on the region site and have not heard from them in a long while." Contact Barry Ekle, the regional commodore. My attempts to contacting the person running the course has been fruitless (I asked to be on staff, and got no response). The last time I spoke with Barry, the issue was finding a location for the course. Its pretty bad they still haven't worked that out. I know we have people in my area that want to take it.

"Does anyone out there "know someone" who might know if the November Sea Badge course is going to be held? The region site still lists it as (T)." You didn't indicate which region. I know we have a course in the Southern Region planned for November in Florida, but its still being worked on. So wasn't sure if that's the course you're referring to. As Seabadge (its one word) courses are regionally run (except in the Western region), might I suggest dropping a line to your regional commodore? The Sea Scout website (www.seascouts.org) should have the email addresses of all the regional commodores, and is the place for listing upcoming Seabadge and SEAL courses.

"While I agree that the they cannot seek rank advancement after their 21st birthday, there is nothing that prohibits them as members from holding office or earning non-rank recognitions." While they may be members of the crew, they stopped being Venturers at 21. Hence its inappropriate to hold office. The OA does not allow OA members to even run for any OA office if they will turn 21 during that term. Venturing also does not allow any Venturer to apply for Regional or National Venturing offices if they will turn 21 during their term. By extension, this should also apply to district, council and area positions. And I'm pretty sure that if you might turn 21 during the Jamboree, that you can't attend as staff. More so then in scout troops, 21 is pretty much a clear dividing point between 'youth' and 'adult' in the BSA.

Once a scout has submitted his 'blue cards' and received the merit badge and merit badge cards, what purpose do the blue cards serve? None. If done properly, the council should have on record the scout's merit badges. This is why most councils require an advancement form to be submitted before the give out merit badges and cards. Furthermore, in most cases the paperwork the scout submittes, which listes all his merit badges, is usually checked by the council office for any errors BEFORE the scout goes to his BOR. So any issues should be caught and corrected before the BOR. I don't seen the reason or purpose of requiring any eagle candidate to bring either blue cards or merit badge cards to a BOR. A request (request, mind you) to bring his sash would be nice, as a starting point for discussions about the badges the boy earned, etc. Get a copy of the "Advancement Guidelines" book. This gives the National policies regarding advancement that council advancement committees must follow. Anyone can purchase a copy from National Supply, and most Scout Shops have copies. Be adviced they do put out a revised edition about every year. Having your own copy goes a long way to stop such nonsense.

"I get it, emb. It's more like a punishment for not supporting your Council camp." I'm not sure I'd put it down to that. However, it's important to keep this in mind. The OA started out as pretty much a 'camp society', heavily tied to camps. OA elections where done at summer camp. Tap outs were done at summer camp. Ordeals were either done at the end of the troop's week at summer camp, or when summer camp was over. [this was my experience back in the early 80s] The idea also is you pretty much went to your council camp. If you didn't, it was no big deal to be inducted into the camp society at the camp you were visiting (which is one of the ways that such societies got spread from council to council or maybe I should say from camp to camp), at least back in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Now, its more of a problem. Lodges are heavily tied to the councils. You can only be a member of the lodge in your council. No more being member of another council's lodge (or of being a member of more then one lodge). But then you have the break down were the lodge isn't as highly tied into the summer camp. At least in my area, elections are done at troop meetings. Tap outs are more often done at camporees. Ordeals may not be tied in any way to summer camp. And many troops aren't going to their home council's summer camps. (heck, in my area there are 2 councils who no longer run their own summer camp programs!) So I guess the response has been to emphasis that you need to do everyone with your home lodge. One would think that exceptions can and should be made, and policy in place to handle it, but I guess the PTB don't agree.

"To answer the original question, my understanding is that a Scout who turns 18 during the year remains a Scout until the Troop reregisters." He main be on the troop roster, but once he turns 18 he is no longer a scout. Something similiar happens with those registered with Venturing Crews when they turn 21. Again, they stop being a Venturers, which ends advancement, they can't hold office in the Crew (or at any level above the crew), etc, but they remain on the roster until the Crew recharters. Some people argue these Venturers are somehow still venturers after 21, which is nonsense. "Please don't ask me what the sleeping arrangements need to be for a person over age 18 who is still registered as a Scout. I can speculate but it would indeed be only speculation." A person over 18 is not a scout. So sleeping arrangements need to be adjusted. "With the consent of the local council, if there is no Venturing Crew available, he could, I imagine, register as a Lone Venturer and still be active with the Troop after age 18." There is no such thing as a long Venturer. Lone Scouts are only for Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts, not Venturing.

John-in-KC main point was one I meant to add but didn't. Basically, while the God & Country program and materials is not church specific, the program is intended to be done by the youth and someone from his specific church. This is where he learns about the beliefs of his church. Thus, its incorrect to say that "program is being offered as either generic Protestant or United Methodist Church". Unless the youth has now become a Methodist, he would work the program with his church leadership (I assume UCC). When he becomes a Webelos Scout, he can get the God & Family materials and get with his church leadership to earn it. Keep in mind that the various religious awards are NOT BSA awards or a BSA program, but a program of the various churches for THEIR youth. The BSA recognizes these awards with the square knots, and in some cases the earning of these awards may tie into some advancement (I think in the Cub Scout & Webelos programs, but also in the Religious Life Bronze and TRUST Award of Venturing).

"As always, BSA has a real hard time writing what they really mean. After all, the phrase "no exceptions" is pretty clear. " I was the one who used the phrase "no exceptions". If you read the document I cited, you will see that while the phrase isn't used, no exceptions are given. No for moving, not for religious reasons. No mechanism is given for grating exceptions. The main point of the issue is to address the units who don't attend their council camp, so want to do tap-outs &/or ordeals with another lodge. The other issues of religious reasons, etc, which I think are a different case, aren't covered by the policy.

"2) to me the new insignia just don't match the old, they've gotten rid of the red and the tan is a different shade, etc. on the new ones so they do NOT match the old shirt or other insignia, so mixing and matching them on a shirt might be officially ok but its not happening on my shirts. " Again, the new and old insignia are not meant to match, because you use the old insignia on the old uniforms, and new on the new. "As for the color of the numerals and such on the adult volunteer shirt. If they made a BIG blue uniform I'd advocate for us as adult volunteers working with Cub Scouts wearing it since we're working with Cubs and not Boy Scouts. They don't. So, I try to make mine look as much like theirs in order to build a sense of unity, belonging, and to let folks know which group of boys I'm associated with when they look. Might sound strange to some but I'm NOT a SM or ASM, I'm a DL and my boys and I wear the same unit insignia and such, same cap, same neckerchief, etc. It makes us a UNIT. Everything that I see coming along as far as the uniforms makes sense for unity among Boy Scouts but erodes that unity among the Adults and Boys of Cub Scouting IMHO." Uh, keep this in mind. Cub Scouting has been around since the 1930s or so. The uniforms for Cub Scout and Cub Scouts adults have ALWAYS been different. Adult male cub scout leaders have ALWAYS worn the same basic uniform as Boy Scout leaders. Heck, the tan boy scout uniform is pretty much considered the basic BSA uniform. In most cases, if you are a district, council, area, regional, or national level scouter, you are going to be wearing that same basic BSA uniform. So you are getting upset about something that's been so for DECADES. And as I already pointed out, when Cub Scout was first rolled out, the community strips and unit numbers DID NOT MATCH. Wasn't until the mid-50s that most everyone was using white on red community strips and unit numbers. And this WASN'T done for any kind of 'sense of unity', but to keep the number of different patches to stock down.

The God and Country Program has several levels, which are: * God and Me (Cub Scout, grades 1-3) * God and Family (Webelos Scout, grades 4-5) * God and Church (younger Boy Scout, grades 6-8) * God and Life (older Boy Scout/Venturer, grades 9-12) The God and Country program is the same for all protestant denomiations. There is no difference between United Church of Christ, Methodist, etc. They all use the same materials. The only difference is that the medals for God and Church have the emblem of certain denominations on them. You can only earn God and Me once. Your scout will have to wait until he's a Webelos, at which point he can earn the God and Family award. Scouts can earn each of the levels, and indicate that they did so by wearing the miniture pin on his knot (Cub Scout, Webelos Scout, Boy Scout, Venturing) for the specific level (yes, regardless of the scout being a Boy Scout, ALL who earn the God and Life award wear the Venturing pin to show this). Check out the website for PRAY which has full info on the program: http://www.praypub.org/ (FYI, the religious awards programs for other religions is different. Most of the others have only 2 levels, one for Cub Scouts and one for Boy Scouts).

"I was just at my Scout Shop picking up an old style shirt before my size is gone." Ok. "Tried to get a Red & Tan "Trained" patch to go with the Red Numerals as I am a CS DL NOT a BS volunteer." What does being a CS DL have to do with which Trained patch you wear? The old Trained patch (red and tan) are for the old style shirts. The new Trained patch (green and tan) are for the new centennial uniform. "My friend at the Scout Shop told me that they were "directed to destroy all red based patches other than the CS unit numerals". " Am a little suspicious of that statement. I visited my local Scout Shop (run by National) and the only old item they had pulled from the shelves were the red loops. I even chatted with the person there about that. Both the old and new numbers and trained strips were available for sale. (I even had to asked about the new trained strips, as they weren't out on the shelves, only the old ones.) Again. The old numbers and trained strips are for the old tan uniform, Cub scout uniforms, AND Venturing uniforms. The new numbers and trained strips are for the new centennial uniforms. "Another instance of Boy Scout centric thinking by the Professionals IMHO." Uh, how so? "Sorry but I will be wearing my Red Unit numbers to match the boys and BSA seems to be allowing the red numerals to continue for the time being." The BSA is allowed the red numberals to continue for the cub scout AND Venturing uniforms. If you are wearing the new uniform (which you can), you should be wearing the new unit numbers and trained strip. What does the color of the numerals on the boys' uniforms have to do with the ones you wear? When Cub Scouts were rolled out, the cub scouts wore yellow on blue community strips, and blue on yellow unit numbers, whereas the adult male cub scout leaders wore the tan scout uniform with red on khaki community strips and white on red numbers. The color matching of insignia is based on the uniform you are wearing, NOT on what others are wearing. "I think that the Red & Tan "Trained" patch is both larger and actually matches the old uniforms colors and CS insignia better." Uh, yes, the red & tan trained patch is larger. Don't necessarily agree that it 'matches' the old uniform colors or CS insignia any better.

I only got the generic PTC participant patch. I was attending Venturing week. About 5 Venturing week patches were made, but all were available for purchase by the participants. None were given to us. I suspect that these patches were made and offered for sale to the participants. If you attended one of those classes and it wasn't offered to you to purchase, shame on whoever did that. I know that for the past 5-6 years, these sort of dated, class specific patches were made. I had always assumed they you were given the one for your specific class when you attended. Having never been to PTC before, that was my assumption. I was surprised to only get the generic participant patch.

"You can complete your Ordeal in a different Lodge, with permission of the Lodge Chiefs." As I previously noted, you can't do this. I checked the National OA website. This point was made clear in Operations Update 05-5 (May of 2005): http://www.oa-bsa.org/annc/opup/opup-05-5.pdf "Out of council Ordeals are not permitted." No exceptions are given. This Operations Update makes it clear that troop elections, OA call outs, Ordeals, and Brotherhood ceremonies MUST be conducted by the unit's home lodge. The only exception to any of these is for call-outs, following what the OU states.

"" "Trained" patches ARE for use on the green uniform." " "Venturing has a different trained patch." No we don't. Venturing has always used the 'old' "Trained" patch that everyone else has been using. (you know, the red boarded one) ""The old tan uniform worn by den leaders is discontinued. " " "What about the hundreds of thousands of leaders that already have the old uniform? " The old tan uniform has been discontinued for EVERYONE. However, you can ALWAYS wear the old uniform. ALL old uniforms are still official. Always have been.

"Not sure if this is a National rule, but in our Lodge, you must complete your Ordeal within one year of selection, or you start over (selection is null and void). That goes for both youth and adults." That's National policy. This is why most Lodges (if they're smart) will have 2-3 Ordeals to handle people that, for whatever reason, miss their Ordeal. "You can complete your Ordeal in a different Lodge, with permission of the Lodge Chiefs." Uh, no you can't. There have been items on the National OA site about this. Not sure the full rule, but except for some very extreme situations, it's not allowed.

"The red numbers are for the blue Cub Scout uniform,which is not discontinued. "Trained" patches are not used on the blue uniform." The red numbers are ALSO for the green Venturing uniform, which is not discontinued. "Trained" patches ARE for use on the green uniform.

"I discovered that wearing knot's don't change people's opinions. Doing your job correctly and being successful in your position does the trick. " Becare of speaking in generalities. Yes, there are some people who will not be impressed by knots. There some who will be. For myself, I take knots as a general indication of the involvement and experience of the wearer. I always reserve final judgement as to what kind of person the scouter is after I've interacted with them &/or seen them in action. Seeing a person in action is always a better indicator. What is most frustrating is that some people are unwilling to give people the chance to 'show their stuff'...

Veteren unit bars are actually available in 5 year increments from 25, not 50. Here are the ones available: 25 years, No. 00133; 30 years, No.50006; 35 years, No.50007; 40 years, No.50008; 45 years, No. 50009; 50 years, No. 00105; 55 years, No. 00194; 60 years, No. 00195; 65 years, No. 00196; 70 years, No. 00197; 75 years, No. 00107; 80 years, No. 00198; 85 years, No. 00138; 90 years, No. 50010. The single piece unit numbers, with and without veteran bars, are available from National Supply as a special order item. They have NEVER been shown on the NS website, but have been listed in the catalog. I recommend you call NS and inquire about ordering them, especially with the new unit number colors for the centenniel uniform.

"The Boyce knot is not quite like the other knots, and hasn't been redesigned." Oh? I thought they were going to fix it? I was under the impression they had done so, and that the first release was now a rare item because of that.

"but the fact remains that you can't bar anyone from observing a ceremony or inductions procedure. Parents who are worried about hazing, who've read all the horrible things that have been said about the OA or who have religious concerns have a pretty valid reason to insist on observing a ceremony." John-in-KC wasn't speaking of barring anyone, he was speaking of discouraging them. I have to agree with him. Yes, the OA ceremonies are not secret. But they are not public either. If you have people who have an issue, the first thing is to show them the ceremony books and if they still want to observe, then, yes, you let them. But the ceremonies should not be turned into a public spectacle like a high school graduation where parents and assorted family members of scouts are there to see it.

I've been to the newer course (did it in 03). It's a great course and I encourage anyone to go. Some of the elements of of the newer NLS were later incorporated into 21CWB.

Would it be appropriate for a scout to wear an event patch he didn't attend? How about for an event he attended before he became a scout? The purpose of such commemorative patches (NOAC flaps and Jamboree flaps) are to recognize those members of the lodge who attended those events. There is no 'ruling' on this, because I think most would understand that if we didn't attend those events (or attend those events while a member of the lodge) it would be inappropriate to wear them.