Eamonn

While the Adult Application form will we hope keep known criminals out of Scouting. Another sure way is to use a nominating committee. The people on the committee if they have are up to the task will steer clear of known trouble makers. I have sat on the District Nominating Committee and you can bet your last dollar that if someone is known to be a real pain in the neck, I sure as heck don't want them and have no need of their services. I do check the references that people provide. To not do so would make asking them to provide them a waste of time. Some years back when I was a Cubmaster a Lady signed her son up to join the pack and said that she was interested in helping with the pack. She filled out the application. When I got home I phoned the people she had listed. The first person I called said that she was fine as long as she was on her meds!! The second informed me that this Lady was nuts!! The third informed me that the Lady had been fired by the local hospital for terroristic threats. Her Who Must Be Obeyed works at the local hospital, so I asked her and she informed me that the Lady was as nutty as a fruit cake. I had to phone her and explain that I had heard that she was ill and we couldn't proceed with her application. She must have been having a good day. She said that she understood. Her son went into the pack and the last time I saw him he was a Life Scout. Her Who Must Be Obeyed was worried that the Lady might have a big gun. Some people in the District wish that she had. I live a charmed life. Eamonn

Here is how I'm reading it. On any of these camping experiences you must do two of the following , only with proper preparation and under qualified supervision. Then the five options. Key words are "Proper preparation." I think these are activities that are meant to be done at camp. I think he need only carry the equipment that is needed to be properly prepared for the activity. But I'm not the counselor that has been approved by your district. Eamonn

Like it or not, it is a fact of life that some people are better at presenting the BSA training's then others. During my term as Council Training Chair. When looking for Trainers I was hoping to find people who had KSA. Knowledge, Skills and Attitude. The hope was that they would pass on the knowledge, skills and attitude that would help the leaders taking the training acquire and develop the knowledge, skills and attitude to make their contribution to Scouting worthwhile. When we looked at the fundamental requirements for training leaders we looked at: 1/ Desire. Leaders must want to learn how to operate a unit effectively. Adults resist learning something simply because somebody says they must. Adults learn best when they have a strong motivation to acquire a particular skill or increase a particular knowledge. When they have the understand the importance of the job to be accomplished. 2/Need. Leaders learn only what they feel a need to learn The materials presented in a training course should provide immediate help to unit operation. Training tried to use the idea "This is what you do. This is why you do it. This is hoe you do it. 3/Practice. Leaders learn by doing. We try to provide immediate and repeated opportunities to practice the skill that was being taught. Where possible we try to provide "On the job training with a skilled trainer. 4/Realistic. The situations presented in training courses must be realistic. Using actual unit situations as a basis for the discussions. 5/Experience. Previous experiences affect a leader's ability to learn. If new knowledge doesn't fit in with what leaders already know or think they know they may well tend to reject it. We try at training to convince leaders of the best methods. 6/ Environment. Leaders learn best in a relaxed, informal, comfortable environment. We encourage fun and fellowship. We encourage discussion and questions. 7/ Methods. We use a variety of training methods and technologies to improve learning. 8/ Guidance. Leaders want guidance and help not grades. Some of these things were within our control others we tried to "Push" in a friendly way. Still at the end of the day if the leader has no desire to take the training or is only there because it is mandatory we are fighting an up hill battle. If a leader feels that he already knows it all, again it becomes an up hill battle. There is of course the leader who attends training and may seem to not be getting it, but then goes to bed reading all the stuff that the BSA has ever put out. The leader who as time passes develops his skills and acquires the knowledge along with a good attitude. Imagine the harm we would do if we sent a report to the CO informing them that he or she just isn't getting it. Eamonn

My personal feelings are that Scouts who are left handed need to be held back. Every knot that they tie seems to be tied the wrong way. While we at at it I think that for all ranks above First Class that the Scout should bring in the latest copy of his school report. Scouts who are not A students are not worthy of advancing. Sound like a bunch of gobbledygook? I hope so!! But holding a Scout back who has passed all the requirements is the same gobbledygook. I don't give a rats tail what anyones personal feelings are. We as adults are here to deliver the program. If you don't like it or feel that your personal feeling are getting in the way of delivering the program, please don't go away mad just go away. Play the game by the rules or feel free to start your own game. Eamonn

Me thinks that I would rather see the troop use the Patrol Method then be a Boy Run Troop. When we strive to use the Patrol Method we ensure that the SM is training the SPL and the PL's. Correct training of these young Lads is the hardest task that any SM has. Train Them. Trust Them. Let Them Lead. Only works when you follow all three steps. As for the popularity contest. This might be true when you start a new troop or have a new group of Lads come on board. However once everyone understands what the role of the Patrol Leader and the SPL is, the Lads in the troop or the Patrol will want and I have found do choose the person that they think will do the best job for them. In some cases this will come down to once bitten twice shy and then again who is to say that the most popular Scout won't be the best choice? And even if the Scout isn't the best choice when he starts don't we aim to train him to become a good leader? Boy Run makes it sound that the monkeys are running the zoo. Using the Patrol Method is at the very heart of Scouting. Eamonn

I don't have a copy of the Scoutmaster Specific Training in front of me however even in my advanced years I seem to remember covering the Methods as one of the later sessions in the course and the syalabuss instructed that they be listed. Help me out here Bob White Please!! All this talk about validating training has me a little lost. We do validate the training has been taken when we issue the Trained Patch. Or by validate do we mean that have some sort of test or exam that will validate that the participant has an understanding of the material that has been presented? If this is the case I suppose that would mean that some people would pass and others would fail.Something similar to a driving test? Being as the people taking the test don't work for us, we (The District, Council, National.) What would the penalty be for not passing? Yes we could not present the Trained Patch and ask the participant to come back and try again. However if he or she choose not to come back and informed us to stick it in our ear, there wouldn't be much that we could do.I suppose the CO could be given a report about how their leader did at training? But to my mind that seems very juvenile. At present we have the services of the Commissioner Staff, if a Unit Commissioner sees that the leaders need to attend training he can set the wheels in motion. This doesn't help the unit where the leader has taken all the training's and just opted to ignore the material. At times I feel sorry for the ASM's that attend the training's and as a presenter I see the joy that they have as the program is unfolded before them. I hear them when they say that this isn't what is happening in the troop that they are in and I feel their pain when they say that the Scoutmaster and the Committee aren't willing to change. I have seen Wood Badge staff members who ought to know how to plan and run events, in camp with their home unit for a weekend troop camporee. Sad to watch the Scouts wandering the camp site like POW's with no planned program. I suppose we who have been involved and are involved in training are the eternal optimists, we keep on going back course after course in the hope that at least some of the stuff that we present will stick with some of the participants. While we might be prone at times to become disgruntled I for one take solace in the great strength of the program. When it is adhered to it becomes something of sheer brilliance, but even when leaders choose to not play this game by the rules the outcome can still be good and do good and it has stood the test of time. Eamonn.

Eagle 1973 could you please explain why you found the training was such a waste of time. Eamonn

Part two of what the Cantankerous Elderly Obese Gent (Due to too much dairy product?) refers to as Scoutmaster Training is the Introduction To Outdoor Leader Skills. The training is very similar to the training he describes. The use of the Flip Chart or Power Point is used because some of the methods of Scouting can not be passed on by example or by role playing and do need to be listed, taken home looked at, worked on and used. I'm thinking of: Scouting Ideals. Personal Growth. Adult Association. Leadership Development. Sure the other Methods can be practiced at the Outdoor Training. Uniform. Outdoors. Patrols. Uniform. Advancement. All of these are still covered in the Training's. The new Wood Badge course, while not just a Boy Scout course still uses a troop setting, with a SPL. PLC, Patrol meetings and the second part of Wood Badge still has the participants camping as patrols. The course has three Troop meetings that demonstrate how a troop meeting should be conducted. As Bob White says things haven't changed very much. In fact the Boy Scout training is about the same as the training that I did when I took my first Wood Badge at Gilwell Park in the early 70's. I think to say that the Training offered isn't strong enough is unfair. I see leaders both new and old some who have taken the latest training's and others who went through training a long time ago still not delivering the program. During my term as a District Commissioner, I sent the Commissioner Staff out to try and help and advise leaders in how to go about delivering the program. Some leaders welcomed the help and advise, some thought that they knew all there was to know and while their heart may have been in the right place and they were / are working with Lads of Scout age what they are offering is not the Scout program. It wasn't that they didn't know the program they just opted not to use it. Eamonn

It was stated in another thread that the Boy Scout Training isn't strong enough to get the methods of Scouting across. I have presented The Method's Of Scouting at Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training. The methods are all there I listed them on flip chart. We went over them one by one in an open discussion. I gave everyone a handout with them listed and an explanation of how to make them work or why they are important. I suppose we could have the participants write them out a couple of hundred times or maybe have them commit them all to memory. But I don't think that would go over very well. What more do you want? Eamonn

Thanks. Have just come home after a DCM followed by the real meeting. I needed a good laugh. Eamonn

Oh Boy, here I go again back on my high horse. Let me start by saying that I am a very hard nosed left winger. The District that I serve and live in is not what you might call affluent. Looking at the median household income for the town where I live I see that in 2000 it was $32,000 a year. With 97.8 of the population being white.Population 4,772. The big town in our District with a population of 9,146.With 94.2% of these being white has a median household income of $21,070 a year.Again for the year 2000. The cost of an entire new Boy Scout Uniform including Boy Scout Handbook and using shorts is $122.60. I just used the assemble a Scout uniform on the Scout Stuff Web Page. As a District we have people who are willing to help any Scout or his family who can't afford a uniform. All the Leaders are aware of this. We very rarely receive a request. In fact we have had only one this year and that was from a family who had lost there house in a fire. In our Council Service Center there is a rack full of donated uniforms, no one seems to want them. Most troops offer the Scouts more then ample opportunities to raise money I don't think raising $122.60 poses that much of a challenge. What we need to focus on is providing such a great program that the Scout and his parents will want to spend the money on the uniform. BTW, If you are looking for cheap uniform shorts go to the Jamboree close out page on the uniform stuff web site. Uniforming and the cost of uniform is only a big deal if we allow it to be a big deal. For the handful of Scouts that really can't afford it the money is out there if you ask. A complete Scout uniform is about the same price as three cartons of cigarettes!! I'll get of that horse now. Eamonn

Is it right for an adult leader to question the Scoutmaster? The answer that sprang into my head first was that I couldn't see any reason not to. Of course picking or choosing the right time and place are very important. From what you have posted you seem to have that covered as long as you didn't try to make him look dumb in front of the committee on purpose. This would bring up your motive. If you knew that you were going out of your way to hurt him or force him into a corner, that wouldn't be nice and would not be following the Scout Law. I'm not in any way saying that this was the case. Then of course there is the consequences. In my travels around the District both now and when I was the District Commissioner I have seen and still see Scoutmasters who when it comes to delivering the program are a few fries short of a happy meal. Of course I could ask questions in such a way that they might get so upset and mad at me and maybe at the District, Council and Scouting that they might decide to just chuck it all in. One thing that we don't have an over abundance of is adult leaders. Now that your Scoutmaster has gone you guys on the committee will have to step in until such a time as your CO selects the new Scoutmaster. What happens to the Scouts in the mean time? Again from what you have posted this guy Wood Badge or no Wood Badge seems like he was in need of a few more fries in his happy meal. I wish you and the Troop the best of luck in finding a new and maybe a better Scoutmaster. Eamonn.

MrsSmith makes the point that Moms who question things about the program seem to earn the title of being "Pushy Moms." I don't think that I use the term. In fact those who know me would think that would be far too tame for me. My Irish temper, which I think I got from my mother who as it happens was a Smith before she married my Dad, is such that I tend to really let everyone know how I'm feeling. MrsSmith, goes on to ask what do we call a Pushy Dad? Could it be that when we meet a Pushy Dad that we do a better job of welcoming him into the program. Or does he do a better job of joining the program where as Pushy Moms don't? Could it be that we males are so terrified of these Moms that we resort to name calling? On the other side of the coin why do I hear about Dead beat Dads, but never Dead Beat Moms? While I'm not going to lose any sleep about it there are a few other terms that puzzle me. Why is when I make a speech that it has amusing anecdotes and when someone else does it they are full of it? After a meeting we have another meeting where the real work gets done and when Her That Must Be Obeyed asks I inform her that we had things to discuss. Yet when is on the phone to her co-workers who she has just spend all day working with they are gossiping? Then when I say something out of line about females I'm labeled a male chauvinist, yet when a woman says the same thing she is just old fashioned. Maybe one day when I grow up and become wise I will understand. Or maybe we should just be nice and not call people names, at least not out loud!! Eamonn

Could be that if you call a halt to the rope making that he will turn around and ask "Please Sir, can I have some more? Hang on, that's my kid - Now you know what the "O" in OJ, stands for!! Eamonn Thanks for being such a good sport.

We as a Council do Scouting For Food. Shop And Save, a local supermarket chain supplies the bags with printed information on the bag. Units have a designated area and pass out the bags and then we have one day when the food is collected and given to local food banks. For the Good Turn For America, the Scout Exec. has contacted Habitat, the Salvation Army and other local organizations that the Scouts can team up with. Eamonn

Thanks Thumper, you have hit on a lot of good ideas. Sometimes I can't see the trees for the forest.I have of course seen and thought that I was familiar with the Eagle Scout material and yet somehow I think that I skipped over the words: Leadership Service. I still think that as a District we need to do a better job of getting the word out that it is a Leadership Service Project. In fact I have got to start calling it by that name and get away from just calling it an Eagle Project. Who says that you can't teach an old dog new tricks? Thanks. Eamonn

I'm sorry MrsSmith. On reading your posting I couldn't help but think of Hard Times the novel by Dickens. "Now what I want is facts... Facts alone are wanted in life. "A man of realities.A man of facts and calculations. A man who proceeds upon the principle that two and two are four and nothing over,and who is not to be talked into allowing for anything over." While there are many that still hold with the Gradgrind philosophy of education. I don't. I sincerely hope that when it comes to Advancement in Scouting that the day I tell a Scout to "Get down to work." That some kind person gives me a swift kick in the pants. Please, Please take a look at the Vision Statement of the BSA. It is there that you will find : Offer young people responsible fun and adventure. In fact this is at the top of the list. To my way of thinking, fun is what makes this program work. We as adults do all we can to offer responsible fun, that in turn helps us meet the Vision and Mission of the BSA. The methods are tools that again help and enable us to meet the Vision and Mission. Sure we have Scouts that tend to lean toward one method more then another. Some Lads are steeped in the outdoors, while others focus on advancement. We are here to help and support these Lads using the program. We do this best when we treat each Scout as an individual and meet his needs. In the case of this 12 year old, it could be that this isn't happening. Advancement is up to the individual, his goals, his patch and if he wants it his Eagle.Some Lads are happy to be active in the program and may not want to work on advancement. Does this make them any less of a Scout? If we were to measure success by Advancement and then state that only 4 or 5% of all Scouts reach the rank of Eagle Scout, we would be doing a very poor job. Eamonn

I had the great honor to be part of an Eagle Scout Rank Board of Review, last night. How I got there is a long story that has to do with the Advancement Chair and the building of a new house. Seven Scouts completed the Eagle Board of Review.I can put my hand on my heart and say that all seven of them are terrific Scouts and all are worthy of the rank of Eagle Scout. I also thought that the other members of the board were outstanding and really understood why they were there and what they were there for. To be very honest one of them is the fellow who was the Camp Director at the Camp when I first came over to the USA, back in 1977. Now retired from teaching. I hold this man in such high esteem it is beyond words.He did a wonderful job of setting the tone for this board. One thing that did and is troubling me is the "Give leadership to others..." part of the project. All the projects were good a couple were outstanding, but only a couple of them really made the point of showing leadership to others. It seemed that end result was far bigger then how they reached it. I think that maybe this is our fault. We as a District need to do a better job of explaining this to the Scout when he brings his project to be approved. Most of the projects involved some sort of construction and most of the Lads had their Dad's working with them. It could be that "Dad" only sees getting the job done. Any ideas how the district can do a better job of getting this message across? Or am I reading too much into this? Eamonn

I went to bat on this one a few years back. We as a council didn't recruit these little fellows until the Scout School Sign Up Night in September. At the time I was on the Council Membership Committee and was serving as the Sign Up Night Chair. For the District. The argument at that time was: When does a boy become a First Grader? There was a lot of people against my thinking that he becomes a first grader as soon as he graduates from kindergarten. At that time we came to an agreement that only packs that had a planned Summertime program could recruit in the spring. In time this became a District Tiger Cub Safari. Which worked but wasn't the greatest. We would have the schools pass out invitations for these little guys and their parents to come to a location in the district where we would have three or four Tiger Cub activities, feed them a hot dog and some pop corn get the application and tell the parent that the Cub Scout leader would contact them. This year we changed it we did a Tiger Cub Safari in each School District,using the Cub scouter's with packs in that school district. We have three school districts in our Scout District. One school district covers the mountains so we had an extra safari up there. We still have one Tiger Cub Safari to go and already we are up by 75%. We do invite all these little fellows and their parents to attend Day Camp and we have a District Tiger Fun Day in early October. I just received an E-mail informing me that the Tigers will now wear the Cub Scout uniform. I'm not sure what I think about this. Not that it matters what I think. My hope is that it might help keep more of these little guys in the program longer. Eamonn

Hate to admit it but I seen this Good Turn for America, thought wow!! Thats nice and really didn't get into it. In the District, we have several units that are busy doing stuff. It seems to be working well. There have been a few problems with them trying to register on the site. I think it has something to do with them needing a four digit number and all our units only having three. Our Scout Exec. Is really pushing this. In fact he has it as a Ticket item for his Wood Badge. He has had Billboards put up all over the Council and is really going to town. Could be that his Ticket Counselor is a very tough nut, with an English accent?? One thing that I only found out a few weeks ago is that this Good Turn,runs to 2010 and there will be segments that go around the patch. The Good Turn is also available to non Scouting groups. In the county that I live, working with the local District Magistrates. I have been working on a program that offers young offenders an alternative to paying fines and going into the "System" or going to a Juvenile Detention Center. Some things are easy to accomplish, such as the Judge will set a curfew and needs someone to just phone these kids at curfew time to make sure they are home. Or if a child is caught smoking under age, rather then just slapping them with a fine we have them write an essay on the dangers of smoking and once it's done we have an adult go over it with them or help them find places where they can get information. We are looking at using the Good Turn as a community service project. Not only for the work that gets done but also the supervision that willing adults could offer making sure that the service is done. Something that the county can't offer because it doesn't have the staff and due to the expense. My hope is that we might be able to get some of these young people to join a venture crew. But that is a little way off. Eamonn

Of course we don't know what a shot glass is or what it is used for. Again this could give new meaning to "Scouting Spirit" If you are buying I like mine from that little country that sits on top of England. No ice. Eamonn

It's late and I'm too lazy to do the math. I would need to check the time requirements. I think I remember someone did this a little while back. I think it was OGE?? As luck would have it I spent tonight sitting on an Eagle Scout BOR. In fact there were seven Scouts. As a rule I try and worm my way out of sitting on BOR. However tonight the Scouts were an outstanding group. A couple were already 18 and the youngest was 15. Sure the 18 year old Lads were more at ease and displayed more maturity.But the 15 year old "Performed" better then the 17 year olds. But maturity isn't a requirement. Bob White is on the money. If the Lad has done the requirements you have to go back to the Board and get them up to speed with how the program works. Nothing to do with what Mom wants or doesn't want. We used to have a really nice fellow who posted in these forums, he was a 13 year old Eagle Scout. Now he is a 39 year old Eagle Scout with a good number of years service working for the BSA. I wonder what might have happened if someone or some group tried to slow him down. There is nothing wrong with offering this young Lad other things to do as long as he choses to do them. If however he has his goals set and he has set his sights on advancing - More power to him. You have to go back to the board and set them straight and do as soon as possible. Eamonn

I attended the 1975 World Jamboree, Nordjam. The Jamboree site was in Norway, but the Nordic countries were the host.I was the ASM for the Greater London Central contingent. I will be putting together the troops for our area of the Northeast Region. While there is a lot of information on the 2007 World Jamboree Web Site. As yet we haven't received anything from the BSA National offices. I think that this might be due to the National Jamboree and that England is hosting Eurojam in 2005. I feel a little sad in that my son asked me if he could attend the last Jamboree and Her That Must Be Obeyed wasn't keen on him going to Thailand. I have no idea why!! One Lad who was in our National Jamboree Troop last time and will in fact be the 3rd Assistant Scoutmaster in 2005 did attend. He tells a very funny tale. How as part of the Jamboree the troop he was in all American Lads went to a School to do a service project, planting flowers. When they were done the teacher of the School asked the different troops from different countries to do their National Dance. Needless to say the American Lads hung back, while some of the troops did their dance. Some of the troops from Scotland did a bit of a jig.Then it came to the American Lads. Ken the Lad from our council who is a real gem. Got the troop together and they did "I'm a little Teapot" with all the actions!! Of course now there is an entire school in Thailand who believes that I'm a little teapot is the national dance of the USA. Eamonn

While it is OK to disagree with someone in a respectful and proper way. How the heck can you disagree with someone who hasn't even posted in this thread? Come om FOG,give it a rest - Please. Eamonn

In another thread someone asked:"Do Scoutmaster's get the troop they deserve?" OK, it was me who asked!! While my son is a Scout in a local Troop and my ever loving is now a member of that troop committee. I at this time am not on any unit charter. This allows me to act very much like an outsider looking in. Over the years that I have served on the District level, we have of course tried to get new units started. Many in fact most of the troops in the district have leaders that have been around for a long time or have the "Old" Scoutmaster lurking in the back ground. We do have two new troops that have started fresh within the past five years. Both started with a graduating class of Webelos Scouts and leaders that were new to Boy Scouts. The road they traveled was at times very rocky and both troops seen good days and bad days. Both troops now have about 30 Scouts and are growing. I suppose that some people could say that they were just lucky. I see two troops that are doing things by the book. Both have very strong Troop Committees. Both have a good working relationship with their chartered organizations. Both troops wear the full correct uniform and are always at round table. When we talk about these units it has been said that they were lucky in that they didn't know how to not do things right!! One troop meets in the middle of no where in a building owned by The Grange. Many of the Scouts live on farms. The other meets in a small town of less then 5,000 that has three other troops. Starting a new troop might be the way to go. I would suggest that before you start recruiting Scouts that you talk with your DE and District Training Chair. Do everything possible to get all the adults Leaders and Committee Members trained before you recruit any Scouts. Have the DE and other members from the District Committee meet with the people from the Chartered Organization. Try and discuss where you think the troop is going and find out what the expectations the chartered organization has and what support you can expect from them. Don't rush into starting the new troop. Do all your homework. Eamonn