Eagledad

Two reason why troops go this route is they are overly concerned about advancement requirements, or they are dug into tradition. But why change if the routine isn't seen as a problem? Kind of like our PLC when I requested the one year SPL term, they couldn't see the advantage and I wasn't doing a good job selling it. Most of the times I've seen SPL and ASPL relationship problems is when the two positions aren't well defined. Even two scouts who don't like each other can get along when each has their own specific, and challenging, task that keeps the rest of the team progressing forward. Most of us view ASPL as the back up for the SPL. But what does he do until then? They each need their own specific responsibilities that not only balance the team, but are also understood by the team. I'll bet the average scout today cannot list their ASPL's specific responsbilities other than taking over for the SPL. And typically all troops are a little different. In our troop, ASPLs plan and run troop programs. SPL delegates and runs PLC meetings. By the way, this happens A LOT with unit adults as well, typically packs. Barry

I hear you. We all do. That is why the greatest character attribute scouts can learn from adults is humility. Barry

Well to be fair, the challenge for all adult leaders is learning to resist pushing the program the way they think it should run. The adults goals are Character development, Citizenship participation, and fitness. The scouts reach those goals through the actions of the eight methods. That sounds easy, but most adults need experience to figure out how scouting activities work toward those goals. So, instead of focusing on goals we don't understand, we get more involved on the eight methods. And it is a show stopper because the reality is adults ideas are limitations to scouts decisions. I was one of the worst. That is why I taught new adults of new troops to give the scouts the SPL and PL handbooks and let them go. That forces the adults to step back and watch how they scouts decisions effect reaching the adult goals of Character, Citizenship and Fitness. It's now quick, but it helps both the scouts and adults start in the right direction. Barry

While our program is like yours, I've observed the most mature troop programs had the commonality of electing the ASPL every six months with their SPL serving one year terms. I proposed this system to our PLC and they said no because they liked our 6 month SPL terms and saw no reason to rock the boat. So, that was that. Our system performed well, so I had no complaint. But I agree that our SPLs needed about 5 months to become productive. They work so hard, they think they need a break at the next election. I say, they think the need the break, because they can't seem to stop being an SPL even after the next SPL is elected. I believe they are over the hump of getting used to the job around 5 months, but I never got an opportunity to prove that theory. If I stayed on as SM, I probably would have requested a trial of 1 year SPLs from the PLC because I believe it would raise the maturity of the troop to another level. I personally don't support keeping terms short to provide more leadership opportunities. Maybe it's my engineering nature, but I believe good leadership is developing the most efficient program they can vision. I also value "role modeling" as the "best teacher" for the scouts, so I desired the best leaders. Maturity starts from the top and works down to youngest least experienced scout. The best measure of a troop program are the oldest role models. Barry

Be strong enough to stand alone, smart enough to know when you need help, and brave enough to ask for it.

Our color guards always started their service at each meeting with a quote when they were called to present colors. This quote is the kind of stuff they looked for. It's easy to say and makes and projects a positive point of attitude for the day.

What I mean is everyone should add one quote per day. We should dozens of new quotes a day (I assume we have dozens of members). If only three of us add a quote, then maybe the one per day should go away. Sorry for the confusion. Barry

One per person per day. Quotes that scouters can take back in pass along to their scouts. You might even start a Quote of the Day before dismissing the scouts. I did something like this with both my Cubs and Scouts. Your SPL may want to start giving them at Troop or PLC meetings. Not a lot of rules, but scouts get bored quickly. The fewer the words, the better. They love humor. I'll start todays: Success is usually found in a pile of mistakes.

Been there - done that, a couple times. The assistant presenter of our Scoutmaster Specific class, who was also a SM, called me once to whine about their new ASM that was asked to leave our troop a month before. She was asked to leave his troop two months later. She quit scouts completely after a 3rd troop asked her to leave. Teams and leadership are hard. The job of the leader is to inspire the team toward a vision. That concept is not hard when everyone agrees with the vision. But like TMSM's example, the team leader is also the gatekeeper of the vision. If a member of the team doesn't agree with the vision, then something has to change. I used to be the district coach for units with adults that weren't working well as a team. In 90% of the cases, the leader either didn't have a vision, or was too weak to keep the team focused on the vision. And it is amazing how quickly most of these adults come together when they understand and agree on a vision. Barry

A few suggestions: Restrict the turning radius so the scouts can't turn so sharp they are thrown off the car or turn into the other cars. Don't let scouts use the rope for turning because it tends make operating twice as hard causing more risk of loosing control. Loosing control doesn't mean a risk of injury, it means the scout will have to get off the car to straiten it out. Advise the scouts to keep both hands on the brake. It's just easier. And don't install seat belts. A scout is safer falling clear of the cub mobile than getting dragged by it. All lessons learned from experience. If I make it sound dangerous, it's not really, but a few trials learning how much slope they need and how wide the streets need to be did cause some stressful runs. Stress for the adults, not the scouts. But I can honestly say we had no sever injuries over the hundreds of races over the years. All scouts left (even Tigers) finished with a big smile on their face. It even became a district event for several years. Barry

I agree, NEVER ask. And, if you are confronted, many times you can raise a convincing argument for continuing. That happened several times. Is the Cubmobile still allowed? They are as much fun to build as they are to drive. Barry

Ah thanks. It's always a fun Saturday for the scouts in our troop. Barry

I didn't interpret the guideline to include the water rockets. I also would not interpret model rockets under the guidelines either. In fact I believe there is a model rocket merit badge. AND, are you sitting on an RV8? Barry

The program has become quite complicated. Another proposal I would personally suggest from my experiences in scouting is stop the den group crossovers and start sending boys to the troops by age or completion of Webelos rank requirements. This would end the need for NSPs and Troop Guides. Crossovers by dens became a tradition when National concluded that NSPs would help first year scout membership dropouts because the scouts are joining with their friends and feel more confident in the group. NSPs and Troop Guides add a heavy burden on the boy run structure that is both difficult to manage in a patrol method program, and shifts leadership management of new scouts from the patrol level to the troop level. More often than not, the added effort is taken over by the adults. I was told that the first year scout drop out rate was the same after 20 of implementing the NSP. So, what is the point? By bringing new scouts in smaller numbers, they will be given to patrols where the patrol members managed the new scouts at the patrol level. I don't have numbers, but I'm guessing it would reduce troop workload a minimum of 25% at both the youth and adult levels. Of course the patrols would have to relearn how to be more active in new scout growth, but that responsibility is positive behavior growth for all the scouts in the patrol. There are many other benefits, but I'm sure this suggestion will not be received with much applause. Barry

OK, we found that at least 40% of total pack adult effort is directed to making their Tiger program successful. My polling, and national membership numbers, concluded that Webelos crossing over into the troop program is directly related to adult burnout. Barry

I'm not sure how you conclude that observation. Since units are where all the action is, they are by default where program performance is measured. Whether the results represent local or national application of program depends on what the local performance is measure against. Membership numbers are one indicator of program performance. If our district was the only district in the nation where less than 50% of Webelos crossover into the troops, I would look at how our district is failing to provide the units a program at least to the level of national's average. But since our district numbers are representative of national's numbers, I've would conclude it is not local. Now I guess one could suggest that Nationals numbers are a success and our district is providing a successful unit programs. But then there is that bothersome national membership decline. Barry

My observation is that success of multiple units in a single CO is directly related to the goals, leadership and direction of the CO. 90% of the COs around here are happy to provide support and space for the scout program, but not leadership or direction. The Catholic COs are the best for providing direction. Ironically direction with a spiritual influence upsets some of the more progressive adults. It's the times I suppose. But, without a mission to find agreeable leaders, success of all the units in a single CO is more about luck than the natural momentum from the structure. I imagine a good Unit Commissioner could accomplish developing successful units in one CO, but finding a UC capable is not only hard to find, it would be temporary. Barry

I felt nothing but kindness in these post. Gwaihir highlighted a lot of what I've been saying, really for years. I guess I'm known as the anti girls member here. If so, than it's because either folks haven't read my posts thoroughly, or I wasn't clear. But I was also the anti gay scout member here, the anti gay leader member, and the anti transsexual member here. But, I'm quite confident that my opinions weren't based on bigotry. Not always, but most of my post were delivered in rationalism, not emotion. Many folks struggled with my posts because they read them with emotion. I'm talking about program quality for all those issues. National in my view has been, for a very long time, out of touch with scouting at the unit level. Even worse I feel National has lost sight of the BSA Mission and Vision. How can passion be nurtured, if one hasn't ever spent the time to watch the process produce fruit? Bringing in a Girls is just another mis-action toward breaking down a program that has only survived this long by it's reputation of changing boys into men of nobility. I say nobility because what scouts take away from this program is more than just ethical character. Its an attitude of selflessness. I don't think the BSA can hold out by reputation any longer. Just the word Girl changes everything about the Boy Scouts Association. That National has stated the decision has a lot to do with raising numbers to save the program just highlights their shallow approach to management. Isn't that like sending more buckets to the Titantic for bailing water faster? If girls could enhance, or just even maintain the "present" quality or boys in the program, I would support it. I believe girls are a benefit at the Venturing Crew ages of scouting. But I have been working with youth and parents long enough to know that adding more complex elements of individualism to an already challenging program intended to shape behavior requires a discipline that National has never shown us to have. I'm confident that National's goals are self-serving. That never goes well in a volunteer organization because volunteers aren't paid enough endure the stress of following the directions of which they don't agree. Motivation of followers is only as good as the inspiration of the leaders. As for what I have to offer, Patrol Method, while the concept is simple in it's application, requires patience and trust to be fruitful. It's not their fault, but I see less of those attributes in todays scouters. You can see it in some of the discussions, patrols is more of a name of how to divide the kids than the method for developing independent decision makers. Patrol Method is quickly becoming an out dated philosophy. Barry

I've told the story of talking to our Webelos just minutes before our Pack crossover ceremony. We have 21 troops in our district, I asked them why this one. They said it had the best game at the troop meeting. None of those scouts were in that troop a year later. There is no easy answer because of a million variables make up a troop program. And no two troops are a like. I developed the reputation as the Boy Run guru in our district. Our troop was the extreme end of a boy run program. And we grew faster than any troop in the area. I was arrogant in believing that every troop should be like ours. But when I started giving my time at the District and council level, I met and worked wonderful scouts who came from programs that were at the opposite end of the boy run spectrum and in between. I grew into a better person as these scouts taught me new ideas in building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. I felt small from the weight of my arrogance. I was embarrassed for being so brash. Humility truly is the great teacher. All of that to say that picking the right troop should be a team effort with the Webelos leader, parents and scouts. For most scouts, the whole family is joining the program. Because of my experience, I'm pretty good at predicting the benefits of different troop programs. But I learned in my humility that scouts from even the most adult run program come away better than when they joined. If they are having fun, they will likely stay. If they can stay a few years, they will grow. My general advice to families looking for a troop is talk to the SPL and older scouts. Ask them to brag about their troop. You will be surprised at their candid opinions. Ask for a story or two about their most memorable experiences. Ask the SPL to give you a tour. Ask the SM the simple question of what the goal is for your son. Follow the answer with a "how" if it is appropriate. You will likely learn what you need to know from that kind of visit. Barry

We aren’t just mourning the loss of a noble youth program originally intended to make boys into moral and ethical decision makers for the rest of their adult life, some of us are mourning our passion that seems to have no where to go. We have a lot of experience to hand down that doesn’t seem to apply much to the future BSA. Barry

Good stuff. Our Scouts started the tradition where the Color Guard shouted something short when they we commanded to "Present Colors". The yell was generally made up just before the meeting. Usually something like "LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET OUT OF THE WAY", "PANTHERS NEVER REST", or something along those line. Not a big deal in the meetings, but pretty impressive when the troop performs the opening and closing at summer camps. I've struggled over the years with adults and the scout sign. I have seen so many adults over use it to control the scouts when they are just being normal for their age. I have often seen adults punish behavior by holding the sign up well past controlling to the point of a form of abuse. I once saw that happen at an OA meeting. I'll bet that adult (at an OA meeting!) stood for at least two minutes holding up the sign and staring down every scout the room. I was ashamed to be an adult. I taught our scouts, and Scouters at adult training, and NYLT participants that the Hand Sign represents the Oath and Law. The Oath and Law are Servant Actions, not dictatorial directives. Or in one word, it says "Respect". It's a way of respecting the moment, whatever that moment is. It's mostly used to respect the group by paying attention. But it could be used to another of showing respect and for performance. We created a policy in our troop that adults are forbidden to raise the Scout Sign first in the presence of scouts. If they an adult presenter feels the need for more respect while trying to talk to the scouts, they walk over and request the group youth leader to get control. Or they can just wait. Often I would just wait for the leader to realize I needed a little more respect or quiet. The rule accomplishes a lot of things as well like adults never taking a leadership role over the scouts and the practice of patience with scouts. But it also forces overzealious adults from interfering with the boys program just because they are personally annoyed by level of disruption. Thanks for the explanation, I can't wait for you to become a troop leader. So much to experience, so much to share. Barry

I find these actions interesting. Your posts are usually well thought out and purposeful. Gifts I wish I had. I'm curious to what you are trying to teach your scouts with applying the scouts sign after the shout? My observation over the years is that the Scout Sign is misunderstood and over used, but I don't get that feeling here. Barry

I didn't mean anything by the question, I'm finding my kids using a lot of words differently. And, while I have very little respect for how National manages BSA, our experience with the GSUSA was worse. I imagine their professionals just haven't caught up with modernizing their documentation. I could be wrong, my wife reminds me often that I'm not reading her mind as she would like. Barry

Intolerant and prejudice. I didn't take the GSUSA's question as prejudicial, I took it as ignorant of males active in their program. I would not have been surprised if the BSA did the same thing before women were invited as troop leaders. Barry

I'm curious of your age. I'm old and would not use bigoted in this manner. Is this how younger people define bigot today? Barry