Eagledad

I was reading the post from scouter on another discussion saying that Scouts deserve trained adults leaders. I am sure that is completely true, what scouts deserve are confidence adult leaders. When I became a scout leader in 1992, training wasn't required like today. If we went great, but if you didn't nobody came after us. Training back then basically gave additional guidelines to get leaders started. Looking back, I can see the program at the national level relied heavily on experienced scouters in the unit getting new scouters up to speed. After years of being trained, leading training, writing training courses and counseling scout leaders, I believe Scouts deserve confident leaders, not necessarily trained leaders. A confident leader has some direction and training doesn't always provide the confidence of direction. Without direction, adult leaders flail around. Over the years I learned exactly how to get a concerned, slightly scared new out-of-the-box den leader up to speed for their first den meeting. And that was pretty much giving them just enough information to get through their first meeting. More than that didn't seem to help the confidence level of new leaders. In fact too much information added to the anxiety. I eventually used that philosophy for the scouts in our PLC as well. New leaders come into their job looking into a dark cave. I trained Scoutmasters that all any person needs to make that first step into the dark is some light to keep from running into the walls of that cave. The light (confidence) gives the blind just enough vision to step forward. As they gain expereince, the gain more confidence to go farther into the darkness. Den leaders are easy because we just sat down and looked at their Den Leaders guide and went step by step. We talked a little about what boys the cub age like and how to settle them down (if they need settling down) when they get excited. Same thing with our Troop, we went from a 2 day JLT course after each PLC election to a 2 hour course of getting ready for the first meeting. We figured out what each member of the PLC needed to get through their first meeting and first camp out. Just the very basics and just enough to build the confidence to make a first step. Not that all the training we adults have to take isn't good training, but I learned that the training courses don't necessarily give adults what they need to be confident leaders. And what they really need are the very basic skills for that first time because the first time is 90 percent of everything they need to know, whatever their responsibilities. I believe the BSA is more challenged today than ever in training adults because there are fewer experienced adults in each unit than before. And, with the recent program changes, there will likely be more units without experienced adult leaders. I believe the program at a national level is going to have to rethink how to get the new adult leaders up to speed just like they did in 2000. And, the unit programs might need some changes as a result. I can't say what that will be, but I see a much different dynamic for adult leaders today than in 1992. I hope this forum can be a place where we can help get new scouters up to speed. I'm not sure past experiences of training are going to suffice with todays program, so maybe this can be a think tank for the future program. Barry

A Webelos leader that doesn't like to camp is not unusual. You have heard me say it a lot, the BSA looses almost 50% of Webelos IIs because their program is boring. Burnout and unhappy leaders are the main cause. When I was a Webelos, males leaders were expected to take over the scouts for the Webelos experience. But times have changed, moms who take on Tigers is expected to continue through Webelos II. We tried to get packs to plan a head for Webelos with leaders who are comfortable outdoors. But, finding leaders willing to take over at Webelos is challenging enough without finding one with outdoors experienced. Our district tried to match up these boring dens with troop leaders who would come in and assist the leader in the program. Works pretty good. A Den Chief can help a lot too, but a troop leaders is still good to have in the back ground because some of these Webelos leaders just aren't into planning den meetings. I wouldn't worry about the scouts not camping. It's nice, but boys join troops for the expectations of adventure. The SM just needs to take care of these guys during their first couple of campouts. I once had a den of 8 Webelos who had never camped join and earn eagle. We had another den of Webelos that had camped every month for the last two years join and they all quit in three months. They were better at scout skills than some of our third year scouts, so they were bored on campouts. The key to these scouts is get them excited about the troop program so they are looking forward to it. And, take them on a couple of Saturday visits to troop campouts. Barry

Wow, I like your style. A little pointed, but I understand. I actually created a couple of classes that were intended to answer your question. We can get into as much details as you want, but I will keep it short as I can. First, learn the BSA Mission and Vision. Preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetime by instilling in them the value of the scout oath and law are the adult leaders primary task. Aims and Methods is how the troop leaders get work toward that goal. The adults measure each scout's growth of making ethical and moral choices within the categories of character, fitness and citizenship. The adults build growth in character, fitness and citizenship by giving the scouts the independence of making moral and ethical choices in the environment of patrols, ideals, outdoors activities, advancement, adult association, personal growth, leadership development and uniform. The adults are to measure and encourage continued practice of making decisions within these program applications so that the scout continues growth toward ethical and moral choices. The more choices a scout makes during his scouting experiences (bad choices are good, the more the better), the more the scout grows and matures toward their preparation of lifelong decisions instilled by the oath and law. If the adults would consider their every decision and action with the scouts to progressing toward preparing ethical and moral decision makers, the program would simplify itself around the very basic requirements of Aims and Methods. Adult Training would be learning mentoring skills to push scout growth instead of scout skills to be a better adult age boy scout. That is a quick list of what I feel new adults need to learn. It seems too simplistic to some and too idealistic to others. Scouting is a values program that uses the outdoors as the tool for practice. Adult led troops are led by adults who want the outdoor experience without focusing on the values. . If adults could learn to build the program toward the mission and vision, they would find many of their questions answered and a much simpler program to maintain. They would be giving the scouts a real world experience scaled down to a boys size. Their scouts would be more prepared for the challenges of the future than almost all of their nonscout friends. I hope that isn't too much. I wish my writing skills had the elegance of my passion. Barry

Good question. Let me explain by starting with a my life lesson based from our experience of expanding the troop program. Over the years of crossing new scouts into the program, we learned that two new scouts was the maximum number a patrol of 8 scouts could handle without negatively effecting the patrol culture. The goal is to assimilate the new scouts into the patrol culture, not change the culture as a result of the new scouts. So, we learned that 25% was the maximum number of new scouts we could add to the patrol without effecting it too much. In truth, I preferred 20% or less. I have no idea statistically how much new blood an organization can bring in without directly effecting the whole organization. But, our district once calculated that the percentage of new scouters without a scouting background joining the BSA before 1990 (Women could become troop leaders) was less than 25% in our area. After 1990, that number shot up considerably to over 40% and grew. Now these numbers have a great deal of guess because anyone who has worked with BSA membership numbers learns that they change constantly. Districts set their own annual renewal schedules and inflate the numbers with membership drives like Webelos IIs in the winter. Drove me crazy because the number of crossover scouts can't be calculate accurately for at least a year when Webelos who signed up with a troop are resigned at the troop's next signup. A huge number of Webelos who sign up with troops never show up, but are officially registered active with the troop. Anyway, I was listening to very experienced volunteers around 1995 complaining that the new training staffs didn't really understand the program they were teaching. One Council Trainer said that he was watching Wood Badge course change from a leadership skills course to a scout skills for adults before his eyes and there was nothing he could do about it. His trainers needed training because they were hung up on scout skills basics. He was feeling a lot of pressure from Council to shut up about his observation because our Council volunteers weren't the only ones speaking up. He was gone a year later. A whole new training program from bottom to top came out 5 years later. So, your question is how does and organization expand without bringing in new blood? You are right, simple math shows growth requires some new blood. So the bigger question is how much new blood can an organization handle without changing the dynamics of the organization? Based from my limited experience in my very small world, less than 20%. The program has been changing for the last 25 years to adjust with the large influx of inexperienced adults. Now that number is about to jump again. As, NJ points out, how the organization adjust depends on the training. But a lot also depends on how much of the program the organization management wants to maintain. I was shocked and deeply hurt to learn of the new derogatory term "Conditional Scouters" coming from the top end of the organization. I think that says a lot because the Conditional Scouters are today's experienced teachers. Barry

That is exactly what we do. The adults enjoy it, but they do require some training because most of our adults are under the CC, not the SM who does that kind of adult training. But once the adults understand their role, they take it very seriously and have fun with it. And it works very well in keeping the program at a very basic level. Barry

I know, but I'm basing my concern completely from the observation of bringing in female troop leaders. If one doesn't know, how can one get there? Observations show that one doesn't get there. I guess this is considered pessimism in your business. We call it planning a head in mine business. Barry

Really! We created the parents guide because we got so many calls about troop meeting times, campouts, annual dues, summer camps and other common questions. But maybe Web Sites are the go-to guides for that information now. A word of warning from our experience with troop strong "chairs" in a boy run troop. Their natural adult efficiency will tend to push more bureaucracy into the program than a boy run program requires, which tends to take away the scouts practice of initiating the actions and contacts for their needs in the patrol method program. We countered the problem by recruiting a scout to assist each position. Except for the treasure, the older scouts enjoyed the roles as well as the adults enjoying assisting the scouts. Watch out for the advancement chair in the Spring, they have some pretty cleaver ideas toward streamlining the Summer Camp MB signup process. Barry

Yep, and it supports my deepest concerns of inexperienced adults leading the program. I can't see it going any direction other than Advancement based Eagle Mill camping programs. Barry

Many troops do this with a new parents guide. Our troop does a required adult leader training course twice a year after each SPL election which identified the official BSA documents used to guide the troop policies and program. We also scheduled an advancement training class once a year originally intended specifically for MB Counselors, which most of the active adults attend. But, even with all that training, 80% of adults don't pay much attention until they have a specific need because that kind information makes for a good sleeping pill. Which is why the burden of knowing and understanding BSA policies lays so heavily on the SM and CC. Barry

Wow, I couldn't get through it either. I had to pause at the uniform instructions. I've said before that the two most discussed subjects in my adult leader training classes were "uniform" and "scout discipline". I understand "scout discipline" because adults are challenged with controlling behavior in a so called "boy run" program. BUT UNIFORM? "Uniform policy is set by the Scout Handbook. Anything else must be approved by the PLC and SM." The uniform guidelines kind of represent the adult frame of mind in that they are making scouting too hard. Youth of the scouting age like to take the path of least resistance. Why would any kid want to endure the complexity of the scout program today when they could be playing video games? Barry

Some scouts do mature faster but this is a little unusual because they like to stick with their friends. Are these scouts not his friends? 10 is a funny age, seems like there’s a huge maturity gap between them and 9 year olds. Typically the problem is opposite, the more mature scouts drag the less mature scouts along. If this is a parent pushing, I would not suggest battling to make a point. And while unusual, I wouldn’t worry that it sets a bad message. If they aren’t tight group, the other shouldn’t care much. Qwazse has a good suggestion. Barry

Mostly the adventure outdoor themes including rappelling, shooting sports and water sports. The PLC once did a space theme where they did some pretty cool physics and space ship stuff. That was 20 years ago, so I dont remember specifics. But I was super impressed because the Scouts did it all, research and activities. We also did a few troop night camporees and a Trooporee with 3 other troops. Those are a lot of work for a boy run program because the boys are in-charge with adults assisting. Be creative and bring ideas to the table. As I said, we included adult suggestions to push out the envelope of fun ideas. Also, merit badges can give ideas. The PLC planned an auto mechanics theme one year. The boys are to young to drive, but they all like cars. They found enough classic car owners to have a classic car show at one meeting. Barry

At first I was surprised that some parents take their son to another troop. I got used to it, but I was always disappointed. I improved my visitor talks to give parents a clearer understanding of how our program worked. And it helped, but some parents have their own vision of scouting. Barry

Here is the way it would have happened in our boy run troop. The boy run PLC plans a program for dens in the district just like they have been doing for the last 20 years and sends the same invite they have been sending to packs for the last 20 years to their program that the previous PLC planned a year ago. Only this time National made a recent major policy with complicated details That few adults, much less Scouts, understand. And the pack adults are offended. As a SM, I would suggest to the SPL that they disinvite that pack because if those adults can’t handle this error, they won’t tolerate our boy run program. Scouting was fun until the adults got involved. Barry

Exactly! Because I was the Council JLT Chairman, I was asked to join a National sponsored forum with other Council Youth Training Chairman to discuss and pass along suggestions for the new NYLT course. Very few, if any suggestions by the list ended up in the course. I’m not quite sure why National wasted our time. Barry

You will find a lot of information and videos under Boy Scout chariot race. This was a common patrol competition when I was a scout. The only difference was we used 6 eight foot poles. Four were lashed in a square with the other two lashed to the four corners in a cross. Im not sure I understand your question of using fewer lashings since tying lashings is the point of the race. Barry

Sadly, we live in a pop political culture where speech is very limited today. You even see it some in this forum. Not submitting to the trend would have likely been suicide for the BSA. But, someone has to point out the risks and I feel the it should have been the BSA. Still, as you said, I don't think National gave it a 2nd thought. It's on the volunteers now. It will likely be an issue on both sides. Anyone who hasn't experienced a call by the lawyer of a parent hasn't felt the full brunt of intimidation yet. Even worse, many folks feel the parents shouldn't even be involved. I don't even understand that. Family used to be everything. Barry

The tone of Scoutmaster conferences are a reflection of the Scoutmaster's personal vision of a scout. Their visions are as varied and different as their personalities. Scoutmasters can learn a lot from other scoutmasters in technique, but they can't hide the reflection. I've had many conferences with scouts and they never even knew it. Especially on drives to camp. I would drum up a conversation and we had good long talks. BORs should be the opposite. The 2 key requirements for productive BORs is a humble Scoutmaster wanting input from the board, and consistent BOR questions. A program shouldn't be measured from the review of just one scout, thus all the scouts should have consistent reviews, at least enough to measure program quality. A lot of adults who join the BOR are motivated by the opportunity of working personally with the scout. The challenge is that working personally with the scout doesn't always produce consistent questions. That's why at least one member of the BOR should be very experienced so they can guide the rest of the board to stay on track. Questions can vary some, but the intention of the review is quality control of the program, or more importantly, the SM. Us old timers aren't big fans of BORs because they used to be a retest of a scouts skills. Todays BORs are a layer of protection from the SM. But, the problem is that youth being reviewed by a group of strange adults doesn't generally help the scout feel free to speak openly. Honestly, while the scout who studies his skills the night before might feel some apprehension toward testing, he knew exactly the reason for the review and how to prepare for it. Most adults today don't understand the purpose of BORs, much less the scouts. So, the scouts are even more apprehensive because they can't prepare. I guide new troops to look for BOR test questions off the internet and issue them to the BOR members. They are pretty good questions and they keep the reviews consistent. Personally, I think the best BORs are run by retired Scoutmasters. They are most at ease and know what to look for in the questions. The questions aren't personal, but the scout feels a personal connection from the way the questions are asked. We asked older scouts to participate on our BORs (not in the BSA guidelines) because we wanted the Boy Run aspect all the way through the program. We found the presence of older scouts relaxes the inexperienced scouts. They ask the same questions as the adults, but like the retired scoutmasters, they seem to ask the questions better. Barry

I'm a little unclear, the reason I say the BSA should stay out is because they are not experts and don't any authority. While the parents were working with their child in therapy, how should the compassionate scout leaders work with the scout? What if the scout leader's compassionate mentoring is contrary to the therapy? Or is therapy crap also. Your attitude about this subject scares me the most because your opinion is set and closed. This is a very complicated subject and the point of the article is that experts are not getting it completely right. The BSA needs to stay away because many volunteers think they do have this figured out and already have a plan for working with the scout. This post is the most convincing of why the BSA needs to stay out of it. By the way, you have referenced your opinion of moral beliefs in other posts. Let's not change the subject in this discussion, but since your so open about your bias against other peoples beliefs and ideas, why don't you start a new discussion where you can get it all out. Explain what you suggest for those of us who don't have your beliefs of moral behaviors. You might even learn something yourself. Barry

I usually would meet with the SPL and ASPL to discuss the process a few days before. Someone mentioned there is some good literature on the subject. I've been out of the game for a few years, so I'm not sure what is out there. But, even with all the literature, we still developed our own style or process for planning, as most troops do. Simplicity is how I approached guiding the SPL to leading a planning meeting. Our PLC planned for six months. Actually we planned for a year, but since the next six months was planned by the previous PLC six months ago, we review the first six months schedule and plan the following six months. Much easier because the new PLC already is running with a planned program schedule. If something needs to change, now is the time. Anyway, we teach the SPL to go in easy stages. 1. Themes. The SPL goes around and ask each patrol leader for one monthly theme suggestion. The ASPL writes them on a big sheet of paper taped to the wall for everyone to see. The adults get to pitch an idea also. The SPL repeats asking for one theme idea until the group runs out of suggestions. By asking each patrol one at a time, he maintains control, where as if the SPL ask each patrol for all their ideas all at once, the other patrol leaders get board and start chatting with each other. One at a time and keep it moving. 2. The SPL ask for campout location suggestions. He again ask each Patrol Leader for their suggestion until they each give one. 3. Dates. Dates are the hardest part because so many other activities, events, holidays and so forth have to be planned as well. On the other hand, a busy month of holidays, shool events and other activities can make planning easier because only one or two weekends are even open. Our first few planning sessions lasted 4 hours. But after the PLCs got better at it, they manage to get the who'le year planned in less than two hours. The key is the SPL following a strict agenda with the ASPL keeping the meeting on pace. Also, the scouts learned to ask their patrols the week before for ideas of themes and campouts so they would have them ready for the meeting. Generally monthly troop meeting themes set the theme of the campout. But it doesn't always have to be that way. It's simple, but allow the scouts to be open minded. Also, it's good to have a discussion of the themes and campouts after the list is created to promote other ideas that can be added to the list. We learned to include the adults as one patrol during planning to help add fun ideas to the schedule. Typically it was the adults who suggested our first Philmont trip, Northern Tier and scuba in Mexico. Sometime scouts have to be primed of possibilities. Think big, the worst that can happen is they troop doesn't have the resources or time. Also, the adults can suggest the first-aid or pioneering type campouts. How about a shooting sports weekend of a water sports. Finally, back when these grueling planning sessions were four to five hours long, we created a PLC lock in so the meetings weren't limited by time. But as the meetings got better and much shorter, the lock-ins became a perk of being on the new PLC. They turned into all night video gaming. I learned quickly that a boys dream is all night pizza and video games. No sleep, just video games, junk food paid for by the troop and no lights out. I also learned to recruit a couple of dads to watch over theme while the SM went home to a nice warm bed. I got up early, picked up donuts and juice for the scouts as they waited for parents to pick them up the next morning. The boys were wiped out, but I'm told that everyone at school next Monday heard about the coolest troop in town. Back to your question: Brief your SPL to use the agenda so that he doesn't get lost in chit chat. Guide the SPL and ASPL to allow productive talk for a couple of minutes, but then move on and keep the meeting moving. I suggest to them that the SPL is leader of the meeting, the ASPL is the hammer that keeps the meeting going forward. Truth is that these types of meetings work better with a like minded team, but ASPLs like to be called hammers for some reason. You can have as many adults as you want, but only the SM can speak. And only when the SPL calls on him. The SPL always has the floor. But they will often need some guidance from an experienced person. You will be tempted to jump in, don't. Wait for the SPL to ask for your input. So, we find that only a couple adults even want to be in the environment. I always invited our previous SM and our camping ASM to the meeting because they usually have really good ideas. I've said a lot. Does this help any? Barry

This happens a lot with SM changes. I have helped and observed a lot of troops where the new SM wanted to change the program and I have learned that change pretty much comes from the new and younger Scouts. I now advise SMs in your situation to pacify the older Scouts with the program they want and build your new program with the new Scouts. Older Scouts (in this case 13 and older) simply don’t like change. Building new with younger Scouts is a lot less stress on everybody. It seems like two groups in one program will be a hassle, but you will find the older Scouts will pretty much take care of themselves. They will fall in for Troop assembly then go do their thing. The ones who want to advance will come to you. Ironically leaving the older Scouts to their program is the Patrol Method you are wanting anyway. They just aren’t great role models for the younger Scouts. In fact you can present the idea to them as an experiment and become the older Scouts hero. Trust me, they will love you for it. Barry

A quote from Toronto Gender Identity Clinic at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in the article: "We know from multiple studies that around 80 percent of gender dysphoric children will desist from their cross-sex identification in childhood to identify with their natal sex. Most of these will grow up to be gay or lesbian; a substantial minority have also been diagnosed with autism.".....................Watchful waiting, which was the treatment of choice for many years, has been dismissed as false and harmful with no evidence for this assertion. Barry

The whole tone of your posts in this thread is based on your opinion of whether or not these lifestyles are a choice. We can agree or disagree about choice, but that is not the theme of this thread. Accept for your comment about my opinion of scouters contributing to abuse in this matter, every poster has been respectful. Barry

What exactly do you need? How to train for the planning? How to do planning? Both? Barry

LOL, I'm being respectful using the common language of the subject. If you want to correct me, fine. But don't accuse me of disrespect. I believe my perspective is the compassionate side of the discussion. Barry