Eagledad

Yes, hopefully. But pragmatically, sometimes a troop of 80 scouts takes what it can get. Even worse are the very limited choices while canoeing on the lakes of Canada. Still, your advice was our guidebook while backpacking in the Rockies. I have to laugh, the expert guidance for walking into sudden thunder mountain shower while backpacking is almost just that: Lay down your pack. Crouch down on the pack with your feet touching together and your head as low as you can get it in such a position. Of course that position is natural for a praying SM.😎 So many young lives with the whole future ahead of them. So much responsibility. Barry

LOL, my two greatest fears while SM was over-reactive parents and lightning. I guess I was lucky in both because most of the over-reactive parents went to the other troop, and while the troop has a lot of tense-filled stories of lightning, the only harm was a car alarm competing with the earth shaking thunder. I guess one can never be too safe, but when the hard rain (five inches in two hours) in the middle of the night is mixed with thunder that sounded like machine gun fire, what is the safest action for 80 scouts. Was our troop just lucky over the years? As I think back to the Bobcat patrol abandoning their camp to run from a tornado, I can't really say. Weather in Oklahoma is challenging for scout units. The rules are clear, but what about the gray area between sleeping in cars to hide from lightning 20 miles away and a beautiful Spring rain shower giving scouts time to play chess in their tent? I don' t know, I don't have an answer, but the answers to my many prayers made me an even more devoted follower of God. Barry

2 weddings, 3 college graduations and 3 grandkids.😳 Barry

Well I can see more training coming. I found, in the couple of troubling adult/scout situations, that adults don't want to push to a point of confrontation. Even if they understand that the council will take it from their report, they would still rather not say anything and hope it goes away. I have personally seen this happen. Barry

Wow Fred, that's perfect. Barry

The problem with EDGE is that adults are taking their young scouts' time to discuss teaching. A recent study showed that more 11 year old scouts were hurt falling out of their chair asleep while listening to adults talk about EDGE than from all woods tools injuries added together. Maybe a little exaggeration. Do we really want 11 year old's know what E-D-G-E means? Does that sound like fun in the woods? No wonder the Handbook is becoming more irrelevant with each new issue? We had a Webelos visit our troop 5 times before joining. It took that long because his mom hated our boy run style troop program. She finally relented, but she was extremely skeptical until she, while sitting out of sight in her tent at summer camp, watched an older scout approach a new scout to offer help him learn first-aid. She was so impressed by the simple words, "What are you doing? Can I help?", that she recruited 30 new scouts for us next year. I'm trying to imagine if she would have been as impressed if the older scout approached the young scout and said, "Can I EDGE you with first-aid?". OK, maybe I'm a little over the top, but I think I'm just thinking the same as quazse. I believe National put EDGE in the Scout Handbook for the adults to learn, not the scouts. If a scout wants to teach a skill, they will naturally in their own way, get the information across. That being said, I think EDGE should be taught at NYLT. After all, NYLT is course for advanced skills. And if the older scouts want to pass the information down to the younger scouts, all that much better. But when a new scout walks through the door, the SM shouldn't have to say "come young scout, I want to take you away from your patrol so we can talk about EDGE.". Barry

I think it's an age thing. I found that most scouts didn't really care until about 15. Barry

In all my discussions of BSA's ills, Dale is never mentioned by these parents. Do you have a theory, guess? Of course you are also very pro girls in the BSA and that doesn't fit with these parents either. Maybe just local. Barry

This is interesting. I'm going to go out on a limb, but none of what you say is valid around here. I understand everything is local, but recently when folks learned of my scouting experience, they have a few quick comments about where the program is going. Many, if not most, of these folks are parents with young kids. Many are mothers. I have never heard anybody mention the Dale case. I would be very surprised if any parent of scout age youth today have any recollection of it. I just haven't heard Dale mentioned in several years by anyone. These parents do have recollection of the gay membership change, but it is so over shadowed by the induction of girls, there isn't any discussion about it. There really isn't even much discussion of the girls, except to say the BSA isn't the BSA anymore. Many of them ask me what the BSA is even called today, however, their body language confesses they don't really care. Parents who have scouts presently in the program today seem willing to continue with the program, even excited. In fact, they aren't discouraged much, if at all, by the girls. It's the young parents who haven't got there yet that feel the program is gone as far as their concerned, and imply to me that it's not in their future. Now, of course their minds can be changed depending marketing, but in general, most parents have moved on, and are looking to other programs for their kids future. When I mention the sex abuse scandal, I'm quite surprised to learn it's not a big deal. The reaction is the same for parents in the program as well as the parents not there yet. When I say it could have dramatic effects to the program, they all shrug their shoulders. The don't care, and the discussion has nowhere to go. I'm perplexed. I don't have any explanation for the responses of the abuse scandal. My only guess is that our culture is so inundated with scandals in the media that people are used to waiting out the end to see what is real. I don't know. Weird. But, in all these discussions, admitting girls far far outweighs the abuse scandal, or any scandal, for swaying outside general public opinion of the program. I'm pleasantly surprised to learn that the Boy Scouts Of America image is still very powerful with today's young parents. But it is bitter sweet, they seem to feel betrayed. Barry

And then there is the scout who ran away from home to go to summer camp. Long story. Barry

I'm not sure I should respond in this discussion because the easy answer is hard. But I want to respond this this part about homesickness. We found that preparing the parents did indeed help the majority of our homesickness. What I personally believe is the parents are the ones who are homesick. For most scouts, the first summer camp is the first time the parents are separated from their kids for more than 1 night. They respond by telling their kids "I can't wait until you get back", or "when you get back, we will have fun doing this or that". Their kids are being programmed that being away from their parents is a "temporary must" that is bad for them. So, we sit down and work with the parents to start encouraging the kids to look at the adventure side and the fun activities. That the week will be short and packed with a lot of great memories. Then for the parents therapy, writes letters of how they are excited to hear stories of the fun, so have as much fun as they can get. Don't say how they miss them or that even the dog misses them. I feel that most kids go through some homesickness because their routine is changed so much for such a long period time. But, summer camps keep kids pretty busy, so they don't have much time to harp on it. And if the parents are excited for them, well, all the much better. Yes, preparing the parents a few weeks before summer camp helps a lot. That being said, there are now and then those chronic homesickenss scouts that nothing seems to help. Usually, there is something else behind the situation. Most often for us was divorce and the fear of separation. In most cases, the parent sees it coming and warns the troop. And in most cases, absolutely nothing helps. In the end, the parents came to pick those scouts. I think two in my experience. HOWEVER, I want to warn that other causes might be in order. I give the one example of the scout during our summer camp in Colorado. This is one of those scouts that absolutely loves camping and has a very supportive family. So he was a big surprise. He was so depressed that suicide came up in the discussion. But, on our way home from camp, as we descended below 5000 ft (camp was around 8000 ft.) the scout came alive. He was all of a sudden his chatty self and excited for the rafting activity we were doing on our way home. He, was a complete opposite of what he was the day before. We later discussed this with doctors and they certainly believe the scout was suffering from altitude sickness. After that, we prepared for altitude sickness future high adventure activities. I can count two that we encountered on backpacking trips. One at Philmont. It's amazing to witness because getting to a lower altitude fixes the problem. Barry

Same issue with cattle at Philmont. Barry

History shows that it will have a negative effect. I can't take greed out of National, but I believe there are ways to give them what they want and still build a manageable program. Create a program completely separate and independent of the other BSA program designed specifically for the youth of that maturity. No reference at all to the Pack. Then, National could recruit any toddler up to age 6. The structure would be more of a once or twice a month go and see. It could have some arts and crafts I guess, but it needs to be specific for parents looking for opportunities to spend enjoyable time with their toddlers. The program needs to be structure giving parents choices that fit their personal time. We could call this completely separate independent program, ummm, Tigers? I think it will work because this is what we did with our Tiger program and our Tiger Drop out rate went from 50% to 5%. Barry

Personally, I believe the program should tailored around the average parent, not pack size. The average parent works, so family time is limited. I found the average mother doesn't enjoy spending the day outdoors cooking and tying knots while bugs are buzzing around while her sweating head in the full heat of the day, or shivering from the cold. So, when the Bear leader mom who has been planning meetings that turns into one hour of herding cats three times a month for the last three years looks at the Webelos handbook, there is some hesitation. The average father of kids this age works more than 40 hours, which leaves little time to plan activities each week for a bunch of boys with the energy of the Energizer Bunny. Just about all Tigers can't read or write and haven't learned the discipline of sitting for 15 minutes. And yet National expects the average CM to pop out an hour of wonderful memories even though they don't have the life experience of planning a pack meeting full of songs, skits, and general fun for boys (and girls) covering the ages from thumb suckers to pre-teens. Like troops, unit size generally shapes to the ability of the leaders. That will never change. But, National could shape a program that fits better around the daily life of the average parent. Personally, I have never understood the reasoning of recruiting youth who are too young to dream of adventure and lack the understanding of patience. Second grade is when boys start to see the world from reading books. Second grade is also the youngest age for youth to understand the discipline of waiting, and at least grasp the discipline of respecting another persons time. As I said, if National wants to keep sons and daughter in the scouting program, they have to build a program for the parents of today. Barry

Lots of interesting stuff here. Before the big Tiger changes in the year 2000, the membership numbers showed just over 50% of the Webelos nott crossing over. The Tiger changes in 2000 were substantial enough that we predicted a noticeable troop membership drop in 2005/6. And that did happen. We didn't have any predictions on the Wolf/Bear or Webelos dropouts because we didn't see any reasoning for it. I heard later from someone close to National that the wolf/bear/webelos I dropout rates had also increased. Makes sense the Web II crossover numbers were adjusted as a result. We figured the Tigers would have a higher dropout rate (more time required from the parents), but I still don't understand the dropout rise in the other ages. I could only guess burnout eventually caught up to the parents faster as a result of the more demanding Tiger program. Actually the 50% drop out rate is really higher, but the difference doesn't count in crossovers, it counts in first year scouts. Many scouts, for whatever reason, register with a troop, but never show up. That registration stays on the books for a year. Which is interesting because first year Boy Scouts has the highest dropout rate of all the ages in the BSA. I don't believe difference has much of a bump on the first year scout dropout rate, but there is not data to verify it. Barry

You are right that the Bear year is the burnout year. That is the hump year of either making or breaking the den to succeed. Experts say that the average person gives 20 months of volunteer service willingly. After that? Well after that the volunteer requires support. Your pack is very much like my pack, support is provided. But, I don't think you realize how few pack are this organized. They are good at planning a head and they aren't very good recruiters. Most of them push the same leader to complete the 5 year tenure. They don't seek out a substitute. The leader nobly continues, but the effort lacks the enthusiasm for a fun program. Some find find a substitute, but with much reluctance and they drag the scouts to the finish. We had one den of 12 Webelos join our pack where the parents finished the two Webelos years by taking turns. Not one of them was the official leader, they just took turns to get the boys through. As good as it sounds, it wasn't a fun den. They had fun in our troop. If you look at the volunteering required just for the Tigers, you will find it to be about a forth of the pack volunteers. And many packs look to the new Tiger parents to fill leadership roles with the thinking that the sooner they get started, the more enthusiastic they will be. But, I find that first grader parents are reluctant because they are being hit with everything that first year: First year of school, first year of Sunday school, sports, dance, piano, karate, and Cub Scouts. I will never forget the very tired looking parent who came to recruiting night holding his thumb-sucking son .In our culture, the first year of elementary education is a huge maturing year for both the parents and kids. Night and day difference from the 2nd grade. Someone asked why Webelos is such a dropout year. It's the year where parents draw the line and make their kids finish what they started. Webelos II is the end of starting with Cub Scouts. I was told a few years ago that National is also seeing more drops at the Webelos I and Bear years now. I don't know. You've heard me say this many times, kids go with their parents. If you want happy scouts, make happy parents. That is what we did. Barry

The problem Tigers caused was requiring more volunteer time to an already heavily burdened volunteer program. I don't know the numbers now, but 20 years ago only half of the graduating Webelos continued to the next step of scouting, troops. I believe that 70% of those Webelos can blame their boring experience to adult leader burnout. It's too much, and now they have a Lion program. Barry

The tone of National for the last couple of years is chaos. I'm guessing girl membership change has everyone at National trying to catch up. The 2018 publish has likely been planned for several years, so putting it out on time was just easier than holding it back. What a great idea. Would a SM require much more in their handbook? Barry

I whole heartedly agree. In their ignorance of day to day character growth, these folks couldn't see the organizations real success. So, they made changes for a path of bigger indicators of success, numbers. I guess National's lesser view of outdoors and adventure in the 70s highlighted their arrogance of the traditional program value. But, the new Tiger program in the 1980s highlighted their greed. IMHO, the added burden of toddlers to an already full program teetered the scales negatively all they way to Venturing. The aged based new scout patrols have done a lot of damage to the tradition of Patrol Method, which is the heart of the BSA. But, I feel the harm from the additional burden of Tigers overshadows the shift away from traditional patrols. I believe the damage from aged based patrols would have eventually caught up with the program, but overburdened Pack program drove organization numbers down so much that National has became reactionary to the trend. And here we are. Barry

I don’t think it has much effect. Mosts scouts join with at least one friend who are generally the same age. Same goes for our crews. I can think of one situation that would have been a problem and that was a 16 year old working with a 11 year old sever mentally retarded scout. I can also see this as more of a problem for NYLT since the participants come from multiple units. Council might have to require two scofrom each unit. Barry

Can you think of one teacher that influenced the rest of your life. How about two? A coach? Maybe a friends mother or father. Im not sure how older older patrol mates are excluded from shared comraderie. I remember my patrol role models very well. I can list the influence they made on my life. Now if what you meant same age patrols can also have growth through shared comraderie, I certainly agree. But, it’s far more challenging to maintain that growth thru age 18. I believe the reason National doesn’t get deeper into explaining the patrol method is they just don’t know. First off, how many of the professionals at National had a youth patrol method experience. My opinions of patrol method are heavily based from my experience as a youth verified by my experience as an adult. Also, I’m not sure National really has much appreciation for patrol method. For most adults, patrols are just a convenient way to control large numbers of boys (youth). I was talking to a friend who is getting back to scouting. He is being asked to be the next SM, but he is concerned about the family scouting that is being discussed. And they have new girls that is causing youth protection confusion. Patrol method is a lower priority of concern. Barry

Philmont rangers like to hang the bear bag first thing after finding camp ( I was taught set up shelter first). Teach everyone to put all their smellables in one bag so they can empty their pack and grab their bag and throw it in the bear bag. And anything else that smells like a shirt with spilled food on it. Barry

Mmmm, need more opinions, but the thin plastic Gatorade bottles wear out quickly with rough treatment of backpacking. Maybe others here had a better experience. Pack covers are as important for protecting the packs at night as they are during the day because there isn’t enough room for them in the tents. It can rain almost every night. Nothing like packing a soggy pack. If you don’t want to purchase a pack cover. Consider heavy duty trash bags. One thing we didn’t consider on our shake downs was the size and weight of food. You’re packing for almost a week. ITS A LOT. So remember you may not be packing as neatly as you planned. We packed the tent torward the last because we could stuff it the what few spaces we had left. We packed lunch, and rain gear last so we didnt have to unpack everything getting to the bottom. Barry

Our council once polled the SMs for the pros and cons of the NYLT cours. The number 1 con was they didn’t know how to support their scouts because they didn’t know what they were taught. Request the course directors to leave one minute at the end of each class for participats to write a note of what they can do for the troop with that lesson. Then instruct the SMs to sit with their scouts and create a plan from each note. Barry

Not typically, but the situation is unusual. We had the scouts write ticket items (plan from skills learned during the course) and review them with their SM at the end of the course to develop a plan together. Barry