Eagledad

>>The only reservation I can make in all this is to say that Juris' plan is not for newbies. But I would also say being an SM is not for newbies

>>The Council COmmisioner, who I am not sure read any of it, said that the Quality Unit took care of what I was talking about, which of course it doesnt,

>>US Scouting might have a problem with being a part the "world-wide family of Scouts" given our different interpretation of some aspects of Scouting, but it gives us something to strive for, anyway.

>>This seems like a bizarre situation to me. What was its origin?

>>Why can't it just be explained? Not evrything fits into neat one sentence packages.>I do not see how the membership loss proves that First Class Emphasis isn't working.

>>Again do not assume that everyone misinterprets the information, manydo not. Some understand it and just choose to ignore it,. Some understand it but disagree and so they change it. Some do not understand it at so do not try to learn it. Not everyone who doesn't use the program incorrectly simply interpreted it wrong.

I've never been much in favor of bringing Webelos to Camporees. It takes away from Webelos Woods and the Camporee for Troops. I was always out voted on that discussion. As far as knowing what the Camporee Events or Theme is going to be a head of time, our District has never been that organized. Which is probably one reason why it is not that well atttended. The best Camporee I've seen, other than our Night Trooporee, was a Backpacking Camporee. All the scouts had to break camp on Saturday Morning and hike five miles to their next camp. They had to stop at Skills Event stations along they way. The District Chairman of that District said scouts talked of that Camporee for years. I often thought of doing that in our town. Have all the Troops break camp from their CO and hike to our main park in the center of town stopping to do about six our eight skills events along the way. HAve the adults compete and cook that nights supper. A big bonfire in the football stadium along with a band for the Campfire program where everyone in town is invited to attend. All of Edmond would see scouting at it's best and the scouts would have a blast. Oneday maybe. Barry

Really good post Beav. I think there are two equal causes to the problem of practicing skills. One is that many of the skills learned arent used in our bungee-cord duct-tape culture just as you explained. The other is the creation of the NSP we have been talking about. Now please dont get wrong and think that I believe all scoutings problems are caused by the NSP. I personally believe we need the NSP in todays program, so Im not anti NSP, I just dont like some of the ways they are presented in the manuals. NSPs were created to help new scouts get more comfortable in the new troop so they would not quit in the first year. One of the ways National attack the problem of losing scouts was to change from scouts joining after their birthday to joining with the whole Webelos Den after they earn the AOL. The idea being that it is easier to stay in the program if your friends are with you. But that change forced troops to change their year-round skills program to a scheduled 12 month program repeated every year. See when a troop receives one or two scouts every month, then it naturally teaches all the skills all the time to help the newer scouts learn their skills and advance. Its a year round program of always using and teaching skills. You just get use to the idea that there will be some patrol time to learning the same skills each month or so. I dont remember that it was ever boring, maybe because everyone in the Patrols were involved. Once the program shifted to crossing large groups of new scouts the same month of the year, troops naturally shifted to a 12 month schedule program for the new scouts. Spring is basically the Tenderfoot and Second Class skills months. Summer is Second Class and First Class skills. And Fall is First Class skills. Winter is the season for the next batch of new scouts and starting all over. Even when you know this to be the problem, the troop is still kind of stuck. We learned it our second year in the troop and tried different ideas, but in the end, we basically a annual skills program. Ive gone long, but I think this is also the reason why Camporees arent as popular with scouts today as they use to be. Learning skills is boring when you have to relearn them over and over. Boys naturally would rather do something else. Good discussion. Barry

>>So, we can beat our heads against the wall trying to get people to read the books, or we can present the program in other ways.

Hmm, I was thinking more on the backpacking treks and suggest a backpack raincover from Campmor or even a large trash bag. That being said, I learned a lot from le Voyageur's post for our next Northern Tier trip. Never thought about using a dry bag to carry water. Barry

I tried dealing with these situations as topics in the ASM meetings and not dealing with person directly. If the adult is still a problem after that, then I talked to them directly. But that was rare. Barry

>>The purpose for First Class Emphasis is to focus leaders in the right place.>That is what the New Scout Patrol does and yet some leaders refuse to do that either.

I was just talking to my lovely wife the other day that this will be the first time for me to watch our 4th of July parade from the sidelines. My boys are in college and out of troop, but my daughter is now on the High School Pom Team, Squad? Patrol? Anyway she gets to ride a float in the parade. Now why didn't our troop think of that? Barry

We never stand in the way of a scout's ambitions and goals, in fact we admire those qualities. But at the same time, we also point out that camp is suppose to be a fun experience. We usually have several scouts go again their forth and fifth year. Have a great Scouting Day. Barry

>>I think what national was trying to affect was the retention rate of new scouts that first year because they were experiencing huge membership losses and still are at three pivotal times in the scouting timeline.

>>Rather than lower the program lets raise the leadership.

>>I dont want to come off as the Scouting know-it-all but it looks like I am the only one who has taken the time to read the SM Handbook.

>>Considering only the points I have just shared can anyone tell us what possible negative attributes there are to this program planning method?

Lots of good post guys, well done. My observation is the problem simply came from calling it a "First Class in the First Year" program. One example of a typical attitude was from a friend of mine. The only other Scouting experiences he had prier to becoming a SM was two years as the Committee Chair of our Cub Pack, so he was started almost from no understanding of Boy Scouts. When he read the Scoutmasters Handbook and went to training, he came back with the idea that he must get all his scouts to first class in the first year for himself to be considered successful. Four years later he told me that he missed the point completely. I found this a fairly common approach by many Troops. In the old days, you can go back as far as you want, but in the old days the First Class rank was recognition of the maturity of a scout who mastered the skills required to survive in the woods by himself. In general, if the boy is left to his own, his maturity will dictate the rate at which he learns all the skills to be a First Class Scout. By the time his becomes a first class scout, he also has the maturity for a scout that can survive in the woods on his own. The problem with FCFY is that it suggest all boys are mature enough to be First Class scouts with in the first year of their experience. This same problem is hurting the OA program in our area. I think we all agree that the real intent of the troop program is for the adults to responsibly develop a quality program where all the scouts can learn skills as fast as they want. The program should be as welcome to scouts who want to get first class in six months as it is scouts that are in no hurry. Now I do agree with Eamonn that a SM must recognize and guide those scouts who are taking their own sweet time, but I'm sure Eamonn agrees the concern should be the scouts maturity, not his rank. I can remember a scout who was in no hurry to advance. He blew off all his classes at summer camp and instead went swimming, hiking, running and all those things that eleven year olds love to do. He was independent enough that he didnt want to follow the crowd, but he was also was not mature enough to sit in classes. Today he would tell you that was his best summer camp. I watched and worked with the scout enough to see he was just having a lot of fun being a boy scout. Something I feel a lot of adults completely miss today. He was not looking to leaveg our troop. A year later he decided he wanted to be a first class scout, so he started calling older scouts to help him earn that rank. That scout went to Oklahoma University last year with the help of Eagle Scholarship. If I were to brag about the program this scout grew up in, it is that when he was ready, he knew where and who to go for help. To me, that is a program of maturity. Here is the question. What should we suggest makes a quality program for first year scouts? A few suggestions I have are: 1. Develop a troop where scouts are rewarded for seeking out help to learn skills. 2. Develop a program that doesnt rely on outside programs to advance like summer camps or MB Mills. This is a major problem in our District. 3. Develop a program where the scout has plenty of opportunities to ask for help. 4. Develop the program where the older scouts understand their responsibility to help the younger scouts grow and advance. 5. Develop a program where the adults dont take the scouts advancement personally be it too slow or too fast. Ignore a time line and instead make sure the program provides quality skills instruction. 6. Honor First Class Scouts as an achievement of full independence and responsibility in the Troop. Have a great scouting day. Barry

>>We usually stop on the way home and use it as a day to unwind and reacclimate ourselves to civilization!

>>While there sould be an adult to guide them, it should be a youth, not an adult, running all parts the program.

Hi All Portaging is the biggest difference in my mind. Learning how to load, unload, and pick up a canoe to put it on your shoulders would start the trip a little easier. What makes loading and unloading canoes a challenge is doing it with other crews at the same portage. So understanding how to get in and out without clogging up the trails or loading points is an advantage. You need to learn how to lay your gear off the trails to prevent blocking the other crews, or even the folks in your own crew. And it wouldn't hurt to find someone in your area who can teach each person in your crew how to pick up and lay down a canoe. It doesn't requires as much strength as one would imagine if you know the proper technique. Our crews packed about the same for Philmont and Northern Tier. Need more fishing gear for Northern Tier. You need different shoes that can drain water quickly. We used Army Jungle Boots, but they didn't hold up very well our last trip. Not sure what we will use this year. Anybody have advise and boots? Barry

>>Sure to a lot of people he will be the greatest Scoutmaster ever, but to a lot of people he will go down as the guy who left 111 in the lurch.

Hi All What about the parents? Do they care, do they want to care, and do they want to be involved? How would you feel if you just found out your son had this pattern of behavior for some time, but no one told you until after the last straw? Sometimes we scouters forget that we are just one small cog the parents machine of making their son into a man. Sometime we let this program go to our heads because we are leaders in a values program. We think of ourselves as the character experts for each family, but we are really only one piece in the puzzle of their sons life. Now maybe the parents don't care and we do have to make hard choices, but more often then not, they care very much and they have a lot of influence in the matter. My humble suggestions are call the parents and inform them of the problems. Request their help and guidance and see where that goes first. I love this scouting stuff Barry

Hi All Personally I think the Uniform Method is the most misunderstood method, but that is another thread I think we want to dodge for a while. I give credit that BW started a good response on this subject. From the adults point of view, the Advancement Method is a tool for teaching life skills like setting goals and acting on a plan to reach those goals. If adults would focus less on awards and more on behavoir performance, the benefits of the Advancement Methods would stand out like a beam of light in the dark. The problem Ive found while teaching is new Adult Leaders havent got the experience to see the growth and maturity from their son gains from seeking out and learning skills at his pace, not the parents. The adults havent yet experienced for their son, the actions required to advance are just as rewarding to their sons future as the award itself. So they instead focus on what they know works, the resume and stature. This wasnt near the problem 25 years ago because society wasnt in as much a hurry to succeed as we are today. Todays parents want their kids to get it all by the age 16. Not just advancement, but the best grades, the best teams, the best musical instruments. Scouting was a program designed for the adults to follow the scouts waiting to guide their curiosity. Today the parents lead the way plowing away obstacles so their kids cruise to an easy adulthood. We tend to ignore the curiosity and dreams of boys and push them to be men way to early. We dont allow them to stop and smell the roses. What can a unit do to promote the advancement method? Insure the environment encourages the scout to advance at his pace, not the adults. Teach the adults the value of their son setting goals and timelines and then independently acting on those goals. Make the scouts handle all phases of advancement from teaching the skills to presenting the awards at the end of the meeting. Dont really on summer camps and MB colleges for your troop advancement program. Going long, sorry. I love this scouting stuff. Barry