Eagledad

>>If so, it begs more questions that the potential co-ed status of scouting.

>>While there might only be 17 Scouts this year, next year that number could well be 30 or 50.

>>Eagledad, Then you may be more in favor of what the Finns do in memory serves. They are coed at Cubs, then split into Guides and Scouts, but essentially workign on the same stuff and advancement, then coed again for the Venturing age.

>>Barry, I think the real reason Campfire and GSA are failing is poor program organization.

Im not sure the logic of combining several programs loosing members to fix the problem of loosing members. Sure you increase the membership of ONE program for a short time, but it is still a program loosing members. The problem of loosing membership is not going to be fixed by Political Correctness or combining other losers because the problem is with the programs themselves. Girls Scouts and Campfires big loses started when they changed their programs to be more inclusive of atheist and gays. The Girl Scouts have all kinds of issues, but it basically is not a values program anymore. Campfire become coed in the early 80s, but that didnt really help them increase in numbers much. It didnt hurt them like the gay and atheist thing did though. However, you can credit the BSA Tigers from the Campfire coed program. If that isnt enough, look at the Canadian program. Its dying folks and the few Canadian Leaders I talked to can tell you the day of its lethal injection. I dont know that day that was, but the program made a big shift to be more exclusive. Interesting thing was they were a very good program that was in many peoples minds a better program than the BSA. That massive program is now almost a whiff in the wind. My opinion is the Cub program is what is hurting the BSA. It is long complex program that looses a lot of boys and leaders before the Boy Scout age. Since 95% of Boy scouts come from the Cubs, the big looses at the Cub level really hurt. The BSA needs to simplify the Cub program back to a 3 or 4 year program. I agree with the post who said most of the folks who think coed scouting is fine havent worked with coeds, at least at the 10 to 14 year age. The BSA doesnt need to save other programs out there that really have a different set of values than the BSA at the moment. National just needs to focus on itself and make scouting easier and more simple for the adults and boys. I still question how coed can be as boy run as the present program. There are adults on this forum who require their boys to have a buddy while they go to the latrine. If that is the kind of mentality of future leaders, arent they going to have trouble with the buddy being the opposite sex? Certainly allowing patrols to camp without adults is out the window. Barry

Well of course it works in other countries, after they make all the changes that are required to make it work. As someone who has worked both in Boy Scouts and coed church youth groups, Scouting would have to change to be coed. Especially at the Boy Scout age where the body chemistry is changing. It certainly would no longer be boy run or in that case youth run. Its hard enough for boys to focus when they don't have the distraction. And its not like they aren't getting mixed together at any other time in their life. Barry

>>I always get the feeling that the PL's really aren't running any show when their decisions, actions, plans, etc. can always be trumped by the SPL/PLC and/or SM/ASM.>If they really are not running the show, then why not go directly to the person who makes the decisions, i.e. the SM?

Good question. JLT over that last 20 has turned into kind of change from unit level youth leadership training to a generic term for leadership development. At least around anyway. NYLT, JLTC, TLT, Brownsea, GreenBar, and so on can come under the term Junior Leadership Training (JLT). Troop Leadership Training (TLT) is a fairly new training course from National designed to be run at the troop level. Thanks for the correction. Barry

We did this once with the all the ingredients required for banana splits. It was a huge hit and some good creativity. Barry

>>The SM of this troop is not really doing anything, other than doing the old VHS video training? He says that there is not much out there to help him. How could I handle this and help him train the youth of this troop.

I worked with an ol-timer on Wood Badge once who has been involved with WB since the 60s. He said back then WB was designed to train District and Council leaders to work with Scoutmasters. There were a few SMs in those courses, but that wasn't the intent. The idea back was that the Council and District would take responsibility for making sure the Scoutmasters had the skills to teach scouting skills and leadership. That was fine with me, the problem came when Wood Badge started teaching everyone. The course that was indirectly designed for Scoutmasters had turned into course for everyone. And it really had switched from a skills development course into an example of how a troop should look. That didn't work very well and here we are now with a course to teach everyone (Cubs and Venture included) team development. Personally I like the new WB course for the management of units, I think it has saved a lot of units in this day and age of big committees. But it is not a good course for teaching adults how to lead scouts. I find it ironic that we again need a course just for Scoutmasters. The pit we seem to have fallen in is that leadership development is the Scoutmaster's job. But we don't really teach them how to do it and now rely on District or Council to do the job for us. Or did, now even the Council course is more focused on team development than individual leadership. Even if you have a good natural leader in the group, he still isn't getting the skills. It doesn't surprise me at all that Eagles today don't really have a full grasp of basic leadership skills that a patrol could survive in the woods by themselves. Still, I wonder if we could even turn it around. We found here that the best new Scoutmasters are the adults who were scouts as a youth. They know the skills and have a general expectation of the program. But, we are getting fewer of those adults leading anymore and taking in adults who have to start from scratch. So I don't really know where to go with training. I think the scouts need a good scoutmaster to teach leadership but that is not really in the future. I approached council once to utilize the Commissioner Corp better by getting good experienced leaders to work side by side with new unit leaders. I was told that the corp. is not as much in focus with the big picture anymore, so they didn't really want to bother. This may be as good as it gets. Barry

>>I pay income tax each year I don't add 10% more to prove I am a Patriot and I don't want to do just the minimum. In my professional certification I must have 24 hours of Continuing Education every 24 months to renew my registration. Am I bad for only doing the minimum? WOuld you be more impressed if I said I would do 30 hours?

You might as well replace reference letters with uniform and you have the same discussion. Neither is required, but it sure makes the whole process messy and "risky" if you don't. Just do it and save the hassle. Barry

>>I'm going to disagree with Eagle92 and some others about having your son be the one to ask these question.

Wow, these are all really great answers. I can't add to any of them, but my ego demands that I get my name in here somewhere. (LOL) I think the suggestion that you and your son need to decide what kind of advancement you want will help a lot because each units adults have different motivations for success. If I could ask one question to learn the SM's to get an idea of their motivation, I would ask where they see your son in four years. If they say "a man with better habits of character", then you are likely looking at a more rounded program where advancement is more balanced with the rest of the program. If the answer is "Eagle", well there you go, lots of advancement. I find more that 50% of Scoutmasters don't really have an answer because they haven't thought about their job that way. That's when you go talk to the SPL and a few other scouts. They will be a reflection of the scoutmaster's program. I wish you luck and enjoy the visits, they were always fun for us. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>So I'd say first step is to take a real good look at how you're doin' youth leadership, and whether yeh have too many adults in the way. Things like what gwd describes, eh? Do your patrols hike and camp alone, without adults? Are the "Awesome" boys treated like that, and do they really run the outing for the younger fellows

>>I find it strange that the BOR of a scout is the means by which the performance of the SM is judged

>>Yes, he took part in a SMC and the PL signed off on it.

>>SM Conferences will now be signed off by the SM and not the PL

>>he expects the unemployment situation to get worse before it gets better,

Never heard it put like this before. From USAToday: The economy is recovering, he said, but jobs are a lagging indicator and he expects the unemployment situation to get worse before it gets better, Obama said at a meeting of the President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board.

There is an "Outstanding" article in the Nov/Dec Scouting Magazine called "Build A Better Boy". The article is an interview with family therapist, Michael Gurian, who has written several books about how to raise boys. I'm usually cautious with suggesting such articles, but I think this is right on target and can help leaders understand better how to work with boys. The article is written well in that Gurian gives lots of approaches with boys and a list of mentors responsibilities. I hope you all enjoy the article as much as I did. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>So, at what point should the leadership begin considering dividing a troop?

This is a really great question and some really good responses. I'm not sure there is a bad response really, but I know my answer changed with experience. I think toward the end of my SM carrier I looked at job as the guardian of Scouting's Ideals. The SM is the primary judge for interpreting the Scout Law, Oath, promise, and motto for that troop for everyone in the troop. Every ASM, SPL, PL and even TG run their part of the program differently from their counterparts because their personality is different. So there has to be some kind of consistency or judge to maintain constant direction of leading boys into becoming men who make ethical decisions. The SM's measure of values and ideals have to rule fairly, equally and with justice so that each boy in their different ways still work toward the same Scouting goals. I find those are the most respected Scoutmasters because they are good at judging behavior, not individuals. Boys don't mind failure when they know the judgment isn't condemnation, but only an opportunity toward better ethical decision making. I think that is what Badon Powell had in mind when he described the SM as the big brother. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>This may not be a technical violation of the YPT, but I for one wouldn't want to put myself in that position.