Eagledad

I agree with those who said that the most troublesome scouts are the ones who don't want to be there. And looking back at those scouts, they come in two categories; One, the scout isn't interested in scouting at all, but is forced to be there. Two, the scout's situation at home is the issue, not the troop program. But the scout is so distracted that they still don't want to participate. These discussions tend to go off in generalities that would suggest are the solutions to all mishavior situations. But our troop has experiences dangerous aggression from scouts in both categories above. Several times the behavior rose above the expectations of Patrol Leader's ability to control and parents had to be ask to help solve the escalating problem. In one situation, the scout had just turned into an out and out bully at home and school and was attacking scouts (in other troops at summer camp) for sport. Yes really, for sport. Something was going on at home, I don't know what, but the mother was hoping the troop would change her son's behavior. In another situation, the scout was so desperate for attention from his parents that he threatened a scout with his knife on a campout until the victim broke down from the fear. The threat went farther than it should have because the youth leaders tried to take care of the situation. But it quickly became obvious that it was above their ability. That scout, by the way, earned Eagle two years later (different troop in a different state) after considerable family therapy. So I think we have to be careful how we answer specific situations on the forum. We can certainly give generalities in how we approach misbehavior, but we shouldn't imply that all troops have the same ability to deal with all situations. I think it is naive to suggest that troops even pretend they can deal with all situations. Troop programs are not homes away from homes. The program may be the most stable and positive influence in a boy s life, but that doesn't mean it will fix the scouts struggle because he still spends most of his life away from the troop. Midnight calls from the police have taught me that. The abuse of one scouts parents was so bad that the family literally packed their car and left town in the middle of the night in fear of intervention by the authorities. My wife and often question what happened to the sad situation. I advised the Scoutmaster who replaced me to never hold secrets about a scouts behavior from the parents unless he thought harm would come from it. He admitted I was right when a parent brought a lawyer to threaten litigation. The Scoutmaster was only trying to be a nice guy and protect the scout from the parents discipline. He thought he could change the scout's behavior by himself. But these weren't abusive parents and they were upset that their sons misbehavior had gone on for several months. It took a threat with a knife by their son to bring everything to light and the parents weren't happy. I tell leaders at training to imagine that a mother approaches the troop holding a box of puzzle pieces on her son's first day in the troop. The picture on the puzzle is her dream of her future son as an adult. Under each puzzle piece is the name of one person she hand picked to help contribute in developing her son into the ideal adult pictured on the puzzle. On the back of one puzzle piece is his soccer coach, another is his piano teacher, another is her son's sunday school teacher and on the back of another piece is the Scoutmaster. See, we are not the total solution to building the mothers dream, we are just one part, one puzzle piece. We are a small part of her whole team that mom is using to build the kind of man she dreams about for her son every night. When we leaders start to think of ourselves as more than that (and many scouters do), then we set up ourselves and the scouts for trouble. The best way for a troop to handle misbehavior is to develop a culture where all the scouts few free and responsible to proactively point out boundaries of behavior before a scout pushes past the boundary. A culture of of nipping it in the bud. But there will always be that one scout who even leaves the adults scratching their head and learning from that experience for the next time. Be prepared for that one unknown. One last thing, these questions come up often and don't surprise me. The two most difficult discussions I have watched debated in my Scoutmaster Specific CLasses are Uniforms and dealing with misbehavior. Misbehavior is tough for all of us. Barry

Does one need to say more? Barry

I find the parents are more forward than the scouts. Scouts don't like these kinds of discussions. Parents know and don't mind explaining the truth. Barry

Are they cotton shirts? Barry

I have never had to ask a scout to quit as a result of his behavior, and very few leaders here have examples of bad behavior that would top ours. But families who join our troop learn that we don't hide anything from the parents and we expect the parents to work as a team with the troop leaders to help change bad behavior. The parents are informed about all their son's behavior, both good and bad (Typically 90% good). I like to think of myself as the boys biggest cheerleader. But when the parents get a report of bad behavior, they are expected to help with the behavior unless they are told the troop leaders (adults and scouts) have a plan to work with their son and don't really need their help. In extreme situations, the behavior reaches a level where it is made clear to the parents that they either participate with their son in patrol and troop activities, or their son is not allowed to participate with the other scouts. The families make the choice if junior continues with the troop. I would guess our record is about 50 percent of families decide not to come back back. Those are extreme situations and rare. However, it's not just dealing with the bad Scout behavior; a few adults were told they were no longer welcome to participate with the scouts because of their behavior. Of the three I can remember off the top of my head, only one pulled her son from the troop. Let me also add that our policy was learned from hard experiences. I think all units (cubs, troops, and Venturing) have to learn and develop from their experiences. Barry

We believe that "ALL" positions from the least responsible like the Cheer Master to highest perceived responsibility of the SPL should have understood expectations that the scout can easily quote. The positions also have a hierarchical order to show their expectation of maturity for the position so the scout understands the difficulty of the position and can plan how to grow in maturity with each position. If a scouts plans to be an SPL one day, he can look at the order of responsibilities toward reaching the position. Of course nothing is in stone and some scouts are smarter than others, but those understandings give the adults and scouts a general idea of where are in the order and where they can go for continued maturity and growth. If your troop doesn't have expectations for positions, create them so scouts understand what is expected of them and how to plan for their future. Barry

Interesting. Our experience of a unit without preconceived expectations is that scouts earn self recognition awards later in their scouting career rather than earlier because they are busy with the more gratifying activities of maturing with the team (the team being the Patrol, troop, PLC, Crew, Leadership Training, OA, and so forth). In other words, when a boy knows he can earn the Eagle for himself anytime, he spends less time on activities that are less gratifying like the Eagle requirements and more time working to build the team to a maximum efficiency. As a result those scouts tend to get awarded with self recognition honors (like Eagle) toward the end of their troop career, not the beginning. As has been said, what boys of this age enjoy the most in their life is proving themselves in the challenges of higher maturity. The challenge for the adults are recognizing each boys need for more challenge and providing challenges for him everyday as long as he is in the troop. But part of growing in maturity is practicing the traits of the scout law in the decisions during their scouting activities. The more decisions a scout makes during activities, the more he will grow from reflecting on the results of those decisions. That is how continued character maturity that is so highly praised of Eagles is developed. Typically scouts who are not bound by outside expectations, as stosh points out, are more mature Eagles because they have a well rounded maturity that was gained over a longer time from a broader range of scouting activities than the minimum activities required for earning the Eagle. Those are the scouts who are typically leaders in the PLC, OA, crew development and young scout development. Those are the guys the young scouts trust and idolize because they are always seen moving the program forward and treating everyone with respect. But I caution that even the outside expectation of young scouts performing equal to older scouts can shackle a boys experience in the program. Very very rarely will you meet an 11 year old SPL who has the maturity and skills of a well rounded 16 year old SPL. A troop program trying to prove otherwise is typically a very limited program and is equivalent to an Eagle mill. Barry

I'm trying not to be disrespectful, but your older scouts are turned off because the program has not matured to their level of level of maturity. If the adults in the troop can't raise the troop program's maturity, why would they think they can build a successful Venture program? Same goes with Venture patrols. Three out of five new Venture Crews dissolve in four years due to low interest. I found there are two types of adults who talk about starting new Venture Crews. One is the leader who wants to keep the older boys in the program. I can helps those leaders fix their older scout problem. The other is the adult's bored with troop program and used the bored older scout as an excuse to move on. they are harder to change. Program quality is measured from the oldest scouts. If that part of the program struggles, then the whole program is struggling. Barry

It was, but it went away along with the age matrix. Except where the age matrix is required, which for us was only Philmont. Barry

I agree, how is leadership measured? Of course it is obvious for some people. One of the dads in our troop was and Air Force General. You knew he was a leader when he entered the room. On the other hand I had scouts who were shy or slightly introverted and leader might not come to mind at first glance. But while these scouts are reluctant to step up when others in the group are capable, they always seem to be in the right place when the situation required it. Sometimes we forget that "Being Prepared" is also a leadership quality. Barry

Its interesting situation. Someone mentioned the other day in a different thread that even the best troops go through cycles because different waves of adult and scout leaderships can change the dynamics. It sounds like you are in the low of one of those waves. But your program sounds fun and boy run. I think you hit the nail on the head with patience. Lets see how they work this. Still, it might not hurt to ask the SM about how they balance their younger scout program with the adventure and management of the rest of the troop. Maybe he needs a reminder the program needs some tuning. I was given a reminder once from a new scout who happen to also be a local bicycle racing team member. The older scouts were organizing a multiday bike trek in the state and weren't even considering younger scouts. This young scout had more miles and experience on bikes than all the scouts in the troop added together. As a result, we changed our activities qualifications policy to only consider maturity and physical ability for each specific activity. Age and rank were removed. Barry

I read on another forum that the BSA is considering the necker as required uniform. I understand it is an attempt to be more inline with scouting programs in other nations. I don't know anything else. Barry

Imagine a coworker passing you in the hall on his way to a meeting. You also know him as a new Scoutmaster of a new troop. There is no time to chat, only enough time to say a few words in passing. The coworker says, "leaving after this meeting for my first camp out as Scoutmaster, any advice? What would you say? Do you have one quick piece of advice for a new Scoutmaster that might make a difference in helping him toward a boy run patrol method program? One sentence, no explanation, short and sweet. I'll start: "Set all camp sites at least 300 feet apart". Barry

Near the end of working an Eagle project for one of our scouts on a hot Oklahoma summer day, the scout's parents showed up to stand with him as he pulled the adults together and told us that his girlfriend was three months pregnant. He was one of those scouts that was Eagle material even as a Webelos. He had great character and was one of the older scouts that the younger scouts liked and respected. Just a great kid. His parents (dad was an Eagle) were full supporters of our troop and we all were really family. Not much was said about it at the time because we all believed he brought honor to the award. But the situation did hang over our heads. "What was the right thing here?" The scout married his long time girl friend a year later after he graduated from high school. He went to collage and came home five years later a strait "A" student with an Engineering and Business degree. He lives down the road from me and is a scout leader for one of his three kids. I ponder now and then on that hot Oklahoma day and sometime wonder what might have happened if just one of us had over reacted; sometimes the simplest plans can turn complicated by a simple act. What is right? What is fair? Life isn't so simple. Neither is scouting. Barry

I've really struggled with these questions, not so much as a scout leader, but here on the forum. As a SM, I believed that advancement is the Scouts responsibility. My responsibility for his advancement is only providing a program that gives each individual scouts the skills to reach whatever goals he sets for himself. Not goals I set, but his goals. How many times has a new scout told us his goal in the troop is earning the Eagle? And yet he doesn't have clue to how he will do that. First off I believe the Eagle goal was set in his mind by some adult because why does a boy set the Eagle goal if he really doesn't know what it is about? Second, I'm don't take the boys goals personally. I only want him to learn the life skills of setting and accomplishing those goals. As the scout experiences the scouting program, he will eventually figure out what he wants to get out of the program and he has my full support. The skills we encourage for the scouts from the day he shows up is: setting goals, making plans to reach goals, and starting the actions of those plans. We teach those skills by encouraging the scouts to do those actions with all their activities. From a new scout setting the goal to learn knots to to planning Court of Honors. The skills just turn into habits they develop in their everyday scout activities. Earning any rank is simply accomplishing a series of small goals. Same with planning the Eagle COH. It appears overwhelming at first, but when it's turned into a series of small goals, then it becomes just another troop activity. It seems like we are doing OK because when I left as SM, our troop average one Eagle every 2.5 months. And the average age of the scouts earning Eagle was 16 years old with 95 percent of our Eagle's aging out of the program. The older scouts were in no hurry to leave. But if I had to pick one indicator that our troop program was working, it would be that four of our scouts were select the OA Chapter Chief in a row. The OA adviser said that our guys had confidence in planning and running meetings. So they were the natural selection. Maybe that says more about the present OA program, but it still says a lot for the our scouts who worked hard. I don't get personally involved with our scouts goals, but I do have One extra requirement I expect from our Eagles, I expect them to act like adults. There will be no consideration for their age, maturity or experience. Only our 14 year old Eagle struggled with that, but I told them from here on for the rest of your life, just about every adult who learns that you are an Eagle will expect you to act better than the average person. So you might as well start getting treated like that now. Actually I kind of tell life scouts that too since they are so close to Eagle, but the expectation is emphasized on their Eagle conference. When I meet Eagle Scouts I don't know from other units, I treat them as adults without hesitation. It's my nature, but I did receive a compliment from a 17 year old Eagle at NYLT after the course was finished.. He said that he dreaded going back to his troop where he would be treated as a Boy Scout instead as an adult. As for meeting adult Eagles in my life. I can't say I have met one that surprised me to learn they were Eagle. And I have never met one that expected to have everything laid out for him. Maybe that is a generational thing, I don't know. Where I struggle is with adults who put expectations on Eagles that takes their choices away. "We make our Eagles do Bla, Bla, Bla, because they are Eagles. This ranges from full time patrol leaders to full time JASMs and even asking them to join a different patrol or even leave the troop all together. Oh, yes, some adults think that Eagle is kind of a graduation too. As I said, I believe scouts should be in control of their goals, and their experiences toward those goals. Once the adults tell their Eagle scouts what they have to do, they aren't being treated as self thinking decision makers anymore. They are asking the scouts to do the bidding of the adults and that is when the scouts get frustrated. My thinking is that we humans are always growing and should look for opportunities to find growth. Maybe that is leading new scouts, or maybe that is helping the ASMs plan logistics for summer camp. If we are to expect the best from all our scouts, we need to allow them to make decisions, especially the Eagles. But I understand having expectations. I started that way when I was a new scout leader. Truth is adults with expectations are better leaders because they at least have a starting place. The hope is that they grow and mature enough to not push their expectations on the scouts and instead focus on a program that helps scouts seek the best they can do for their scouting experience. It's a complicated question for me, I'm not sure why. Barry

OK, I accept that. But you classified all scouts working on palms as to not doing something worthy. You don't even have and idea why the op's son wants to earn Palms. You threw him under the bus of your opinion. What bothers me about comments like that is that it judges a scouts decision, whatever it is. Same goes with how Eagles and SPL's are disrespected here if they aren't following personal opinions of scouters on this forum. "I believe in patrol method and the Eagles in my troop will.....". My point is that we all let our Egos hold back scouts in some ways or others. I certainly don't have a defense for this SM, but that some of us don't see ourselves in the mirror sometimes bothers me. It's me, I'm getting old and cranky. My apologies to all. Barry

Yes, but your comment makes hypocrites of all of us. In another conversation today, scouters are putting down scouts who work for palms. Are those Eagles really the bad kind of scouts? Another scout leader on this forum says Eagles should only be patrol leaders, and another doesn't like SPLs, another has never met a SM he didn't like, and another has never met a Scoutmaster he did like. As much as we think ourselves as the second coming Badon Powell, it's our inability to cage our egos that turns us into close minded adults and causes these problems. All of us suffer from ego-flu now and then, we can't seem to help it. If we are lucky, we have some bit of humility hiding somewhere in the dark places of our minds to help bail us out. But that's if we are lucky. God help us, because sometimes we think we are right. If the SM of the OPs troop had to do it over again, hopefully he would choose differently. But his ego couldn't stop once he set his course and now this family will have to bypass the troop to feel they are being treated fairly. I'm most disappointed in the op's troop CC. I believe that CCs should have the strength to stand up to Scoutmasters for balance. I remember once when such a CC told me that I needed a break from the scouts at summer camp because my crankiness was not going over well. As much as I don't believe Scoutmasters should be females because boys need male role models, I also believe the best CCs are women because they don't hid what needs to be said. We have had several female CCs and they were all very good. The males we have had were not. Barry

What I mean is a "new" troop. New sponsor, new gear, NEW ADULTS. It would not be all that challenging for someone with your experience. Barry

Eagle94, I'm curious why you haven't pursued starting a new troop? I'm sure you had the thought. Barry

Personally I'm impressed Eagle because this has gone forward a long way from a couple months ago. I'm a little surprised by some of the responses on this list and can only say that they need to take a ride with their DE or District Commissioner to understand the struggles units go through to just survive. I guess we do so much bragging, lecturing and pontificating about of our idealist troop models that we camouflage the reality of building these programs. Can you imagine the dynamics involved for a group of adults with different backgrounds, experiences and goals getting together to build or even manage a scouting unit.? It takes time to build a team that not only works toward the same goals, but are also willing to humble themselves enough to step back and find a place on the team where the program goes forward. It's a battle to balance egos, will and idealisms. It's hard. Eagle94's situation is especially challenging and I commend them for any steps going forward. Well done and keep up the good work. The four stages of Tuckman's team development model are forming, storming, norming and performing. Theoretically all teams, from husband and wife teams to management teams of Fortune 500 companies go through these four stages to become efficient working together. It appears to me that Eagle94's troop is between the forming and storming part of the model. We might just be witnesses to growth of the best troop in the state. Keep up the effort Eagle, we (most of us) are with you. Barry

Oh yes, and about that patience thing; there is a reason why it is the first trait to describe "Love" in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7

I have worked oh probably about 10 troops that decided to make the same change you are making and not one of them had their older scouts (14 and older) fully sold on the idea. I guess we develop our minds believing that our program is THE program for scouting, even if we don't like it. Anyway, every troop included the older scouts into the change plan, but all of them eventually split their program where the young scouts made the troop change and the older scouts were allowed to do their thing, whatever pleased them. And I guess the joke is on them because that is kind of the patrol method anyway. NOW I'm not saying to expect doom and gloom with the older scouts, I know someone will figure out a way to get older scouts on board. I'm hoping you are that person and will teach us so that we can spread the word. Give a try for a while, but if the older scouts become a hindrance to progress, give them their program they want. Funny thing, the older scouts don't leave, they just do their thing until they age out, most earn their Eagle. Just a heads up. Not trying to suggest a course of action. Barry

Agreed, many of our scouts do both. We once had a 17 year old SPL who was part of a crew, and participated in Troop High Adventure. He couldn't get enough of this scouting stuff. By the way, you don't have to be an Eagle to give back. Barry

Adults and older scouts are the most resistant to change. Have you spoken to the adults? In general, not always, but in general change comes from the youngest to the older scouts, not the other way around. Have you developed an explanation for the reason you want to change the present program? "Because I say so" never comes off well to the scouts or adults. You should rehearse your reasoning over and over in your mind until you can say a simple one or two sentence explanation that is as coherent to the 11 year old as it is to the adult leaders. It doesn't hurt to be able to reference BSA material as well so that you don't appear as some narcissist trying to prove your new mouse trap ideas of scouting. Your troop is doing it wrong, be able to show them why. You say you have read everything, but have you read the PL and SPL handbooks? Instead of the SM trying to explain how patrols should work, let the books explain it for you with you working along with the boys as a student. As much as possible, don't push, follow along. In fact, make those handbooks required reading for all the adults working with the scouts so that everyone understands the direction YOU are going. You have our support and I'm excited to watch your troop progress. Barry