Eagledad

I always look a the bigger picture and it seems you are looking for problem to fixed. The only struggle that really seems to stand out is in your last post mentioning "advancement". Are the new scouts not advancing? Are you trying to fix that because the PLs aren't doing a good job helping the new scouts advance? Why is there a concern on advancement? Who is complaining? Am I completely missing your concern here? Barry

I agree with the whole post, but I really like what jjlash said about the staff. Just like in a troop, the staff of a WB will take on the personality of the director. Every WB staff I participated on had a different personality and a different perspective on what the participants should get from the course. I became picky about the directors I worked under. The Troop Guides do work very hard, but most of the staff are there to support them, so it's generally a very rewarding experience. Barry

It's not easy finding the real causes for scouts dropping out. I remember when our Council made an effort to call each Webelos who dropped, sports and karate were the number one reasons. After I got finished with my research, sports wasn't even on the radar. Kids will do what is fun and rewarding no matter how busy their schedule. 2/3s of the scouts in our pack and troop are in sports, so I know that isn't a cause. Scout age boys don't like to be cold called for answers to why they quit. First off most don't really know the exact answer, they just don't want to continue scouting. Second, adults asking scouts why they don't like something is intimidating for boys this age because they think somebody is going to be in trouble. Sports, Karate, music, and etc. is easy because nobody is in trouble. Parents may not know exactly why their son doesn't like scouts, but they do know when that started happening because their son started whining about going to meetings. Parents being parents want their son to finish what they started, so they push their son to the meetings. Many scouts quit after Webelos because that is the end their parent are willing to concede. Going to a troop is like starting a whole new program and that is just the break the family is looking for to get out of scouting. The problem that for us is we really don't know when the Cub Scout started disliking scouting. It could have been at the Wolf age, but since most parents push their sons to finish what they started, or they feel the scouting is a good program for their son, they stick it out until the end of Cubs. I was surprise to learn that Bear and 1st year Webelos drop increased around 2005. The only reason I could find for that was families were frustrated with all the national gay publicity and just wanted to get away from it. But I couldn't find enough data points to verify that. And that was a national trend, it wasn't a trend locally. So it still a mystery. Finding the truth is a lot of work and most people aren't willing to put out the effort. But it does paint a picture of the problem. Scoutmasters are in the the best position to learn because they get to talk with the scouts, parents and cub leaders. They just need to learn now to ask the right questions and listen carefully to the accumulated answers. Attacking the problem is a whole different discussion. Barry

Contacting the scouts isn't enough. If you really want an true assessment, talk to the parents and leaders. That is what I did and they fill in the picture much better. Example: The Scout says that he is more interested in sports. The parent says the son felt the boring meetings were a waste of time. The Leader says she/he didn't want to be a den leader, but only took the responsibility because nobody else would. Sports? Barry

Same age patrols require as much massaging as mixed age patrols. If one were unwilling to admit that, they are only fooling themselves that it is different. My experience of mixed age patrols along with our success as adults is very successful. End of story. LOL Mixing scouting into mixed age patrols is irrelevant in the big picture of the program. The new scouts join right in and make friends immediately. In fact they make friends in mixed age patrols faster than they do in a patrol of same age strangers. The older experienced scouts know how the patrols should function and get the new scouts involved immediately. Same age patrols have to wait for the TG to get the ball rolling and even then it's not like the mixed age patrols that move on as they have been doing. It appears by how hard one has to defend same age patrols that they are a lot of work. AND THEY ARE. They require a lot of adult observation and a somewhat skilled TG. And our extensive experience in both patrols haw shown over and over that new scouts in mixed age patrols mature and grow faster from and environment of older scout role models than the same age scouts who struggle from day to day to just do boy scouting stuff. Now working at the district and council level, not all adults are adapt to running mixed age patrols. First off some adults just don't like the idea of older and younger scouts mixed. Some adults don't know how to not intrude on the patrol method and same age patrols work better for them. In most cases, Eagle mills and mega troops are aged based because they are easier for adults to manage. Pure patrol method requires giving the patrol full independence and many, if not most, adults really struggle giving boys that. As for our troop, independent growth is the most important objective in the program. Independence requires an environment of not making scouts feel guilty for being different of having different goals. That includes not having goals or not advancing or taking on leadership responsibilities. That is very hard in a same age patrol because the pressure for all scouts to grow at the same rate is very strong. A scout should develop confidence to grow and that usually comes from someone of experience that the scout respects. Our observation is that the NSP rely heavily on the TG for that respect and honor. Which is fine, but the respect of the TG who acts as the Patrol Leader is different from the respect of patrol mates who just living the normal life of a patrol mate. Of course the new scouts can be leaders too, but they don't have the experience for ideas and the confidence to work through struggles, so they usually fall back on the troop guide of adults. As a result growth in the same age patrols is slower. One keeps suggesting new scouts can move out of their same age patrol if they don't like it. But that is true of all patrols including. The difference we saw is a new scout feels too intimidated to speak up about leaving his patrol. I found it was usually the parents that came to us with relationship problems. That can happen in mixed age patrols, but it is less likely because mixed age patrols sense when part of their team isn't happy and they will accommodate whatever change is required. Scouts in same age patrols just feel stuck and frustrated until someone, usually an adult, pries and ask questions. There is that adult thing again. We have theme in our troop that says "the adults job is to put themselves out of business". We want the program to mature so that if the adults didn't show up, nothing would change in the scouts behavior. We found that maturity struggled in same age patrols because they were always looking outside of their patrol for ideas of adventure. They struggled with their own independence. Now as I said, we are very good with using mixed age patrols and we understand the dynamics of mixing boys into patrols. Some adults can build a good program around same age patrols and the boys are completely satisfied. I'm not about to go and tell adults of a same age patrol mega troop they are doing it wrong. They have literally hundreds of families that are totally satisfied with that program. But it is a different kind of program and it's not for adults who know how to be build a successful program around mixed age patrols. In the end, it is the adults who decide what is success in their program and they dictate how to point their program in a successful direction, whether that program is mixed age, same age, boy run, or patrol method. Gotta run, Barry

Qwazse, I've been an adult leader almost since the induction of women troop leaders and the program has changed a lot as a result. Any addition of female leaders will further change the program away from the boys. It WILL BE less adventure and less boy run (more adult run). I don't approve of any changes that takes quality away from my son even if it does improve for my daughter. There is a program for girls, it's time the energy for promoting girls in the BSA get turned to the swaying the Girl Scouts to improve their program. Barry

Your topic is the primary reason I don't want girls in the BSA below age 14. Your observation is more typical of of the Girl Scout program then we would like to admit. Believe it or not, one of my mentors of becoming a boy run scout leader was a women who in her life was the equivalent of a Council Executive for two councils. She became so frustrated with dealing with the very same attitudes you describe that she left the organization. She eventually got involved with Cub Scouts with her son, which is how we met. She is so adamant about women being terrible scout leaders that she wouldn't allow her son to join a troop that accepted women leaders. She believes, and I agree, that the nurturing instinct of a woman doesn't work well in a program where young boys are encouraged to learn from their independent decisions and mistakes. Protecting their youth from any kind of hurt (mistake) is part of that nurturing instinct. The goals of a boy run experience are counter to the instinctive nature of mothers. Because they don't understanding how giving youth some independence leads to grow and maturity, these leaders don't understand how teams (troops), camping, and responsiblity all work in the scouting program process to build mature decision makers. So they change and improvise the program to fit more of what they think is good for their girls. They simply don't get it, so they ignore the published program and make it up as they go along. Your daughter's leader doesnt understand the growth your daughter gained from the award, so she has no respect for the Gold Award or your daughters effort to earn it. Ask yourself, how many people outside of the organization even know what the Gold Award is. There isn't a unified acceptance in the Girl Scouts organization for what a girl gains from the Gold Award. Not like the Eagle. To be fair, we have a couple of posters here on the forum who believe the are the 2nd coming Badon Powell and dis everyone else's opinions. But the BSA community as a whole believes in the program and holds these leaders in check. The Girls Scouts don't have that community, so each Troop leader does what they want. My wife quit the Girls Scouts after three years. The frustration wasn't worth it. Accepting young girls in the BSA would also bring more female leaders with the same nurturing instinct and I personally believe that would eventually pull more adventure and independence away from the boys program at an age when they grow the most from those experience. We have already seen some of that after the BSA started accepting female Boy Scout leaders. The good that comes from this experience is your daughter will grow to appreciate you for the support you have given and are continually giving her during this frustrating process. I'm at the age that I know she will hand those same gifts to her children. Barry

That is not typical of packs nationally unless things have changed in the last few years. but even the male leaders who like to camp burn out. I've seen it a lot. Still guys, marketing is not really the issue on this problem, trust me. Go out and find out for yourself by interviewing Den leaders like I did. Interview the Webelos and you will find that if the Den leader is running a fun program where the boys look forward to each meeting, they will likely crossover. In fact I found even if the den program is basically arts and crafts, but the leader still makes the meetings fun, they scouts will crossover because they believe the troop will be as fun as the den. If the meetings are boring, the scouts presume that is how the troop program will be as well and they look for a chance to break from the program. Crossover is that easy break. The local fix is to find the burned out leaders and help them out. Not as easy as it sounds. Barry

We've had this same discussion many times over the years. 45 to 50 percent is the typical average for crossovers nation wide. In short, adult burnout is the cause. A volunteer run program can hope for at best two years from their average volunteers. After two years, the volunteers are burning out. The Cub program is FIVE YEARS LONG. Yep, raising my voice there. Even if a parent wasn't a leader during the Tiger year, they still are two years in before they reach Webelos. Adding to the problem is that the average Cub leader is a mother who doesn't camp outdoors or understand Boy Scout Skills. Either the Bear leader reluctantly takes on the more outdoor style Webelos, or she quits and the pack finds a reluctant replacement. Either way the boys have an unmotivated leader for two more years. I did a lot of research in this and I'm guessing that between 65 to 75 percent of non crossovers came from a Dens with unmotivated burned out leaders. The numbers can be improved, but the real problem is the five year Cub program. This is why I believe the Tiger program needs to be moved or merged into a pre-Pack age Scout program. Four years is still too long, but it's a start. Barry

Thanks TAHAWK, That is very good. Barry

Exactly! Three scouts have giving me the credit for them becoming engineers. I wanted to ask them what they saw in me that motivated them to make that choice, but just asking the question seemed self serving. I honestly can't say where I influenced these scouts, and sometimes it scares to think of how much influence we have on boys. Good and bad, our every action is watched. Barry

For me it's plumbing. My kids know this well and speak of it to my embarrassment. Barry

When a scout didn't get the position he wanted, that experienced was coached as another opportunity to develop respect and growth by taking on other responsibilities. This happens often with young ambitious scouts wanting to try their hand at leadership in a mature patrol. Some scouts take it hard. But like qwazse, they are guided to show their ambition by taking on responsibilities that give them experience and exposure. Many of these scouts grow more from those tasks than from their POR positions. Barry

Adults set the example. What ever excuse you allow yourself, the scouts will use themselves. Not just with swearing, but everything. I asked the adults to never yell for any reason beyond warning someone of some danger. It wasn't long before our scouts also used a quiet tone during the business of taking care of their scouts. There is one place I would turn my back on scouts swearing; high adventure camp sites are typically very tight, so tents are set up very close. Provided they are keeping their voices low, I let them have their privacy. Barry

The NSP option failed because it didn't fit in Hedgehog's Troop design. They simply didn't need the NSP to indoctrinate new scouts into their troop. Trying something new is a normal process of working toward a better program, as is dropping the parts that drag the program down. Loosing 1 scout for every six shows their success without the NSP. They might change their new scouts policy for those years when 25 new scouts join at the same time. Barry

Off hand, I can think of a half dozen troops that grew faster than your troop. Is that really a good measure of a boy run program? And as for what your scouts want and don't want in their program, Scoutmasters' set the tone of how their program takes direction. You said it yourself, you told your scouts how they are to select their leaders. Is that Forced? Maybe, but I have never seen scouts drive their program from ignorance. Barry

This is quite and interesting post. When I listen to someone with little experience describe to folks with scars of experience of the perfect world, I think of the idealistic progressives of the seventies describing Utopia. Your post bleeds of comparisons for your Utopia with (or more fairly against) my 20 or so years of actual experience. And not just my experience, but the experiences of several forum contributors with real boy run experiences. I just don't want to have brag to make a point with your Utopian ideals. If you need the details of my experience, we can do that in private, but I'm going to try and respond with generalizations I learned from my experiences if you don't mind. No theories here. I think it's great that you imagine the ideal troop program and consider the details of your machine, I wish other scouters would. But when your perfect vision leads you to imply that the experiences of other scouters isn't a match to your lofty idealist visions, maybe you should at least consider being more reserved with your opinions of the opinions of adults with real experiences until you can compare and balance experiences. Apples to apples so to speak. Thanks for your time. Barry

You have been struggling with this for a long time Blw2. I can see it is really important for you, but I don't understand why it is important that those of us who have successful programs with mixed age patrols agree with you. I have no desire to change your mind because if mixed age patrols isn't in your heart, you aren't going to do it. I can't agree that same age patrols work as well as mixed age patrols. I've tried both and mixed age is just better. But, I want to help you through your struggle. What can we do to help you? Barry

I enjoy discussions like this because there is a lot to learn from the different experiences. But some of the contributors aren't being honest in describing there experiences. Beaver and I have been on this forum for a long time, so we have some memories of what many members have posted here over the years. Is it possible to ask for an honest discussion with being disrespectful to posters who who push to be the smartest scouters in the room? I don't know, but it is a bit frustrating. Barry

The accusation is that councils are making up their own rules. Is that correct? Barry

They can't get away with it. What councils are accused of doing this? Barry

Shaking my head. Barry

Boy, I'm not sure anyone has clear political opinions today. I would guess what you want is for the adults to be respectful. Much of the time that means just listening quietly. All our adults expect from each other is that we be the proper roll models. Typically the adults campsite is too far away on troop campouts to hear much. But I try not to let the scouts know what I've heard the night before when the tents are stacked next to each other on wilderness camping like boundary Waters and backpacking. I remember having some very personal conversations with my tent mate when I was in scouts. I try to allow them that privacy. Barry

Funny, we see this happen a lot. Once it was another troop. Very annoying. They also left a lot of garbage spread over their site. Ugly boy scouts I guess. Barry