Eagledad

It will be interesting. I've said here before that we had several mothers that specifically put their sons in our troop for the exposure to male adult role models. They made it quite clear they that while it was up to the SM, they would rather not have females camping with the boys (we had no restriction). We had several female committee chairman and they were up front that male role models would dominate the program. I also find it interesting that todays parents don't get that. I think the feminist have won in confusing equality with equal abilities. Barry

Demonstrate Scout Spirit and Living the Scout Oath and Law has been a source of contention since the day it was given power to judge a boys behavior. It's nothing new. The struggle is that there isn't a defined set of actions for Demonstrating Scout Sprite, and the result are different adult interpretations of Scout Oath and Law. You would not believe how many times National deals with this conflict on Eagle applications. And 9 times out of 10, the scout wins. Or maybe it is better understood that the troop leadership looses. So what is a parent supposed to do when they feel their child is being wronged by some self-righteous adult whose only authority is some traditional paper hierarchy of a national youth organization. They stand up against the oppression of course. Sadly, the side with the greater pride is the winner because after all, volunteerism isn't worth the heart-ach. And, ironically, Scout Spirit takes a beating because the adult role modes can't play nicely. As our program grew and the Scoutmaster matured along with learning from the experiences of dealing with the high expectations of parents, we got better at explaining what new families should expect from the program. And I know it worked because I got fewer calls in the evening from parents who felt they weren't getting their monies worth. Of course no matter how much we preach our expectations and methods of reaching those expectations, some parents still struggle with their son's less than perfect performance. So, they try to push back. Units the deal with these conflicts the best are the ones that maintain a consistent program. Troops with strong Committee Chairman have the least trouble because they usually work side-by-side with the SM. It doesn't matter how strong or weak the scoutmaster's perform, everybody look's up to them for program direction. So if the CC and SM have a full understanding and agreement of the vision (expectations) and the methods for working toward those expectations, the program is strong; no matter how weak it is. That is why I always encourage CC's take the Scoutmaster Fundamentals training with the SM. They rarely do, but the point is understood. Generally units search first for a SM to build a strong program. But I encourage units to first find a "strong" CC, because they will find the "strong" SM and the two together will build an outstanding program. I kind of went off on a rabbit trail or two, sorry. Barry

I had a few scouts transfer out after my head to head meeting with the parents. I listened patiently and then quietly replied to how and why my actions with their son were appropriate, and supported by the troop committee. I would remain consistent with my scoutmaster style. I tried to not lead the meeting a do or die type of conclusion, but I did leave them an out that there are other programs in the area they might find more acceptable for their family. Sadly, in most cases the scout didn't want to leave. I did track many of those scouts through my sons and about half them aged out of their other troop program because their parents stayed involved. Barry

Same thing; you don't actually know the true motivation or true future anymore than the rest of us. Ok, we do know something, BSA is loosing the present membership and the plan is add new membership instead of fixing the cause of the present decline. Now that sounds like a solid plan for developing a healthy program. Barry

When a poster states a theory and then finishes with a comment of not understanding the point of other posters stating theories, it's time to walk away from the computer. Barry

That's very interesting Eagle, thanks. My wife was a leader in the GSUSA while I was a Scoutmaster, so it was easy to compare. She didn't last long because the program just had no point. When she tried to run her troop like a BSA troop, she was stopped by the higher leadership. If the BSA wanted to partner with a Girls program, Campfire would be the way to go because the program closely resembled the BSA. They have been struggling with membership ever since they opened up to gays. Campfire was at the time a very values and traditional program. It didn't hold well to liberal progressivism. I don't know how they are doing today, but we haven't seen Campfire candy sells for a long time. Barry

When I took my kids to the local Scoutorama, the first place they ran to was the Pioneering area with the 3 story tower and 2 story rope bridge. Boys can build that! Pioneering was a lot easier in the days without self supporting tents, tarps and elaborate camp cook boxes. Even tripods struggle with wash basins near latrines and stoves replacing campfires. Technology has replace the need for knowing the proper knots for more comfortable camping. Pioneering towers and bridges help romanticize the skills that boys in general find boring. A clever SM then uses imagination to push the scouts a little further with visions of gadgets and camp aids. Barry

I admire CCs who value the program because they are more responsible for program quality than most realize. Basically the CC is responsible for bringing in the right volunteers to support the vision. Mot CCs just fill in vacancies, but the good ones recruit specific talent for specific responsibilities. That being said, volunteer sources are limited. Most units do the best they can with the resources they have. When I was at my prime as a "boy run" "Patrol Method" leader of a very successful program, I in my arrogance and immaturity believe every troop should be like ours and that any troop that wasn't like ours was a failure. Then I was recruited to volunteer for district where I was responsible for membership and unit quality. I learned over the years that if the families are satisfied with the program and believe they are getting their monies worth, the unit was as high quality as mine. It just had a different style that match the style of the fine adults leading it. I don't know your resources or the quality of your program, but I think you as the CC are asking the right questions to understand your situation better. Good job and I hope you find a way to work your concerns. Lots of us are here to help, but your the one on the ground and your unit is better for you. Barry

The BSA was loosing membership even before the recent membership policy changes as a result of a program structure that makes managing a unit challenging for volunteers. I have said many times that the sensible way to work the problem is fix the internal issues first. OK, that doesn't seem to be the path National is taking. So, in my mind, bringing girls (family) into the program is like the Titanic taking on more passengers with baling buckets. Even in the best case scenario, the girls membership will eventually level out leaving the program with the same internal problems that is causing the present membership to leave. In other words, bringing in girls to save the program is only a temporary solution. Barry

You know, I wished I had thought of that. There is training for rappelling, swimming and boating. Why not Pioneering! I like it. Barry

Anyone that watched the GSUSA over the last 40 or 50 years noticed that the organization has a lot of support from the womens rights groups. Way to much in some peoples' opinion. However, the GSUSA was noticeably silent during the BSA gay drama when they have the weight to apply pressure. Nothing official, but the rumors were that so long as the BSA stayed away from the GSUSA membership, the ladies would play nice. I wonder if we are about to see weight of their influence. So, on a different note; I don't know how these things work at the National level, but is there anything that shows the public who works for National and describes their responsibilities? Can't the volunteers apply any pressure for accountability? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? Barry

The Y-M-C-A song keeps going through my mind. When I was a District Membership Chair 18 years ago, Counsel was working with all the membership chairs to recruit more high school age youth in the program for "after school" activities. I forget the name of that program, but it didn't go well. This sure sounds familiar. Another aspect of this I'm curious about is the religious sponsorships. Originally for the Methodist, the Boy Scout program was sponsored by the men's division of the church. I wonder what they are thinking. Along with that, scouts are presently not welcome in schools as a result of the atheist membership restriction. The older youth program I was talking about didn't have the restriction, so the BSA was working with the High Schools to get them more involved for "after school" activities. I have said for a long long time on this forum that the BSA will have to put less emphasis on the religious part of the program to maintain a liberal progressive direction. I know first hand that this was a set goal by gay activist back in the early 90's. Many youth scout programs around the world have taken god (or God) out of their program completely. Family! Of course family, like the YMCA family. On the plus side, maybe the BSA will add work out rooms to their camps so families can work on their physical fitness after work like the YMCA. Might be a good approach for attracting overweight Familyscoutmasters. I wonder what a Familyscoutmaster patch looks like. Barry

I used to compare notes with my Campfire USA Leader neighbor and feel they provide a better program than the BSA Cubs. In fact, I used a lot of the Camp Fire material while I was a Cub Master. There older scout program is pretty good too. Barry

Hmm, help me stosh, the key point of your theory isn't clear. The NSP and Venture Patrols didn't exist until 1990. What method of Scouts groups did Green Bar Bill (William Hillcourt) guide the Scoutmasters to use from the 1920s thru 1980s? Barry

I agree, if the troop program is strong, they aren't looking to change. We actually had several scouts join Venturing while staying active in the troop program so they could get twice the adventure. Typically these were our more active scouts. So yes, they fit both programs in nicely. I admit that I was one of those insecure adults early in my Scoutmaster career afraid of the Venturing program. But as our troop matured, so did my attitude toward other programs. I come around and welcomed OA and Venturing. Some boys just can get enough of this scouting stuff, so I was glad other opportunities where available. As I matured and started working with other troop leaders, I tried to guide them that if the scouts were leaving for Venturing, their troop program was the problem, not Venturing. But, successful Venturing programs were also hard to find in our area. The problem is generally the adults of lousy troop programs were the same adults of Venturing programs. And that just doesn't work well. The good Crews are still around. The not so good crews rarely made it past five years. Barry

Yep, gotta agree. A zebra with spots can't change to stripes. I've seen a SM and ASM equal side-by-side as a team working the same plan for the same goal. But the SM is still given respect for the final word. Good or bad, the SM is the gatekeeper of the vision and program, even it appears there is no vision and no program. If change is really wanted, the troop needs a new SM. Barry

A vision statement describes the organization as it would appear in a future successful state. Barry

Ah, I see. Barry

Your reply is complicated to my simplistic explanation. I would assume that the new SM has bought into the program in the OPs situation and has already developed some relationship with the PLC. However, this is where you and I differ in the program. I believe the Troop is an adult program used to develop boys into moral decision making adults. The adult leaders (usually the SM) have the vision for how the program works in developing the scouts into moral decision makers. Not the scouts. That being said, in our troop SM discusses the vision, mission, aims, methods, and scouting values for the program with each new PLC. Everyone knows whats going on and why and everyone is invited to request a change if the SM cannot justify how each part of the program works toward the goal. Barry

Yes, I agree that good role models of both genders is important at the Venturing age group (post puberty). The brain works differently for this age and not only is it important to have good role models of both genders, but the scouts are now biologically adults and should be treated as such. Which I know is your style of leading. This is the age where male and female role models show how well adults (both scouts and adults) work together. Personally I like Venturing Crew adults and youth working closer together to represent a team as apposed to adults and youth. The adults have a specific responsibility different from the youth, but that doesn't mean they don't work together to accomplish a common goal. We worked with our senior scouts somewhat the same way when pushing them in more of ASM roles. Barry

Most new Scoutmasters start with idealism and a vision. The idealism blinds them from outside advice until experience beats them up a little. Good ASMs stand back in the shadows waiting for a quiet moment to ask if they could help. If you see the SM getting overwhelmed in a situation, volunteer to take a task to lesson the chaos to give him room to think. Don't add a new idea to the confusion. ASMs help the SM melt their idealism into wisdom without changing their vision. Barry

Role models. Role models are key for boys to learn behavior and same gender role models magnify that growth. Barry

At what point in the program do your adults feel the scouts are no longer kids who do stupid things? Barry

What is the etiquette for a scout contacting a MB Counselor or the fly-fishing speaker for the September meeting? Barry