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Chief exec of UK Scout Association: Time for a Promise that atheists can keep

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  • #16
    .(This message has been edited by fred8033)

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    • #17
      It's all part of the continued clash between good and evil...the devil works in insidious and attractive ways and paves an easy path to follow.

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      • #18
        There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch.

        Heck, B-P was gay so are we going to be cafeteria Scouters and pick and choose what we do and don't like from his program and call anyone who don't agree with us not true Scouts and to go find your own organization?

        So, if we don't believe in the divinity of the King/Queen of England, are we not Scouts? That was implied in B-Ps Promise too.

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        • #19
          assuming it's being held in a church, my guess would be that it has nothing to do with their teaching position .... But why **** don't you ask THEM

          Don't cuss. It betrays the dismissive and repressive behavior of the common secularist.

          Held in a church in accordance with all statues as far as I can tell. This person I talked to said that, because of her position as a teacher, she wasn't supposed to be organizing baccalaureate.

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          • #20
            Don't cuss. It betrays the dismissive and repressive behavior of the common secularist.

            Bigot.

            This person I talked to said that, because of her position as a teacher, she wasn't supposed to be organizing baccalaureate.

            Sorry, now you aren't even making sense. If some random teacher doesn't know the law, or if the school officials at her school don't know the law, that's certainly not the fault of me or any group of atheists. Ignorance is its own punishment.

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            • #21
              Qwazse is right Merlyn. You hypocritically hide behind the banner of tolerance and then shout that everyone needs to believe the same as you.

              Bigot? Really?

              Many of us cherish scouting because it does have a faith element to it. It's not thrown in your face and many barely notice it, but it is present and an important part of the program. I'm not much for big camporee events. But if you choose to attend faith components... There is something very special about sitting on the grass Sunday morning with the wind blowing thru the trees and being together with hundreds of others for an inter-faith service to reflect and pray. Or at summer camp at a late Sunday afternoon mass with the lake water rolling onto the beach. Or the rained out service that gets relocated into the dinning hall.

              Scouting has always had a major faith element to it. You have a choice whether you participate in the faith components and you have a choice whether you participate in scouting, but you can't use scouting as a platform to advocate atheism and expect to be considered a member in good standing.

              Tolerance is working side by side. Camping side by side. Helping each other. Without demanding each other change. In our city, many of the churches work together on basic humanist project such as food shelves, homeless shelters and protecting the vulnerable. All churches I know welcome others being present at their church services. But as a member of my church, I cant use their church to evangelize my faith.


              Its really the same things with scouts. Belief in a higher power is a core element. You can personally believe different and participate. Thats tolerance. But you cant use scouting as your platform to advocate the opposite. That just not smart.

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              • #22
                +1 to Fred and quazee.

                Merlyn's comments do not just reflect atheism, they reflect anti-theism: the mimicry, mocking, and intolerance of religion in general, which undercuts any claims of so-called tolerance that he makes.

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                • #23
                  The term "Secularist" in this thread has been misappropriated, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularist

                  Arguably with that definition, the Bible teaches us to be Secularists.

                  "Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

                  With all due respect,
                  Sentinel947
                  (This message has been edited by Sentinel947)

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                  • #24
                    fred8033 writes:
                    Bigot? Really?

                    Let's see how his sentence looks with some other substitutions...

                    "Don't cuss. It betrays the dismissive and repressive behavior of the common Jew."

                    "Don't cuss. It betrays the dismissive and repressive behavior of the common Catholic."

                    "Don't cuss. It betrays the dismissive and repressive behavior of the common woman."

                    Yep, that's bigotry.

                    Its really the same things with scouts. Belief in a higher power is a core element. You can personally believe different and participate. Thats tolerance. But you cant use scouting as your platform to advocate the opposite. That just not smart.

                    Are you even living in the same universe as I am?

                    I'm not using scouting as any kind of platform; I'm no longer a member. UK scouting is considering a change to officially allow atheists, and if they do, there's goes your "core element" argument, at least in the opinion of those in charge of UK scouting.

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                    • #25
                      My my, it's a weird day when Merlyn and I actually agree on something, and it's becoming more and more frequent as of late. It must be all the holiday cheer on this forum.... oh wait.

                      To return to the original topic, I'm happy to see the UK Scouts getting their non-religious youth fully integrated into the program.

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                      • #26
                        B-P was gay

                        What nonsense.

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                        • #27
                          Re the Gay comment; thank the biographers who try to fit a different cultural standard into modern day ideas. BP was raised in a totally different environment than most can really understand, one where his way of life was fairly common. That was all male schools, an all male career, and finally, late marriage due to the Empire and its unsettled maintenance by the military and related British civil servants. Teal, at least touches on that reality and simply asks if their might have been a closeted leaning. But, his descendants are part of the British Scouting group, so that reflects on the murkiness of the idea too. Some people simply must make unsubstantiated judgments because they are narrow minded, have an agenda, or simply lack the ability to think beyond their narrow perspectives.

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                          • #28
                            Think I will weigh in here.

                            The rumor that B-P was gay comes from the extensive biography "Baden-Powell" by Tim Jeal. In the chapter "Men's Man" he comes to the conclusion that B-P was a repressed homosexual. The biographer is highly respected and produced the most thoroughly documented information about B-P ever written.

                            In the end there is no way to prove either way.

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                            • #29
                              The point I was trying to make was that the sexuality of Baden-Powell is irrelevant. Why can't most folks understand that?

                              Merlyn, I thought you'd get a kick out of the fact that the advertisement on the top of the web page right now is for the Vineyard Church in Ann Arbor (last bastion of liberal thought?) and shows a "Darwin" fish (with tiny legs) kissing a "Jesus" fish. Let's just hope that one was female and the other male.

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                              • #30
                                Sorry Meryl,

                                I have never been cussed at by Jews when I've brought up matters of Palestine.
                                Never by Catholics when I've brought up the counter-reformation.
                                Women? Well, two out of three ain't bad. And, I probably deserved it anyway.

                                And the apathy towards someone seeking to express religious sentiment often is framed in profanity.

                                Moreover when you reference the Abyss, I know you don't really mean it. So spare the hollow vanities.

                                Of course it's not your fault that suit-weary educators want to steer cleaned clear of secular (per S947's reference) improprieties. Even when within legal rights, the cost of defending a "walk up to, but not over, the fence" becomes prohibative.

                                But your insisting that their "invisible muzzle" is not your problem serves to affirm that the "constraints of Oath and Law" upon your felllows need not be a concern of scouters.

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