Coed Troops

[Eagle94-A1 2737]

14 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Another random thought...

When we offer the option of fully coed Troops, will there be an ongoing need for Venturing?

Maybe that is why the Venturing Director made that announcement. To quote Han Solo:

 

 

 

[Eagle1993 2205]

22 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Another random thought...

When we offer the option of fully coed Troops, will there be an ongoing need for Venturing?

Venturing has been in decline, our entire District is down to 1 crew.  There w as a rumor that a new program Rovers? that could replace venturing.  I think Rovers would be pushing the upper age limit of Venturing. 

 

Edit... Rovers look like option post Venturing..

https://tidewaterbsa.com/rovers/

Edited May 10 by Eagle1993
Added link

[InquisitiveScouter 1687]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Venturing has been in decline, our entire District is down to 1 crew.  There w as a rumor that a new program Rovers? that could replace venturing.  I think Rovers would be pushing the upper age limit of Venturing. 

 

Edit... Rovers look like option post Venturing..

https://tidewaterbsa.com/rovers/

 

https://www.rovering4life.org/

Well, if anything is worth doing, it's worth over-doing 😜 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KH_JzLLIhA&t=2s

https://fb.watch/rZX80EgGZj/

Please don't show that last link to your Scouts...

Edited May 10 by InquisitiveScouter

[Tron 95]

41 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

 

https://www.rovering4life.org/

Well, if anything is worth doing, it's worth over-doing 😜 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KH_JzLLIhA&t=2s

https://fb.watch/rZX80EgGZj/

Please don't show that last link to your Scouts...

Last year there was a rumor out of the national meeting about a new program for older scouts to replace venturing. I think national is still baking that one, I cornered a local who is on one of the national committees and he was like "I know of the rumor you're talking about, I can't discuss that." and he wouldn't say a word. So I would say there is legs to the rumor but no one has details/will provide.

Venturing is really in the decline where I am at. What I see is that some troops sporadically have a handful of engaged older scouts and so they form a crew for a couple years and then when those scouts go off to college the crew folds. In my area I think venturing is more of certain troops having a high adventure patrol than actually forming a crew per the BSA doctrine.

 

[qwazse 4371]

2 hours ago, Tron said:

…. I think national is still baking that one, I cornered a local who is on one of the national committees and he was like "I know of the rumor you're talking about, I can't discuss that." and he wouldn't say a word. So I would say there is legs to the rumor but no one has details/will provide.

…

To acquire Venturers in any significant number, the registration fee will have to be less than the cost of a pizza and a movie.
While we’re rumoring, scuttle but says there are co-Ed troops being piloted.

But even on an informal basis this is happening. I was manning a station at spring Camporee and saw several patrols of mixed sexes. One or two may have bee ad hoc, but a couple operated well enough that I figured they weren’t segregated OPO.

Edited May 10 by qwazse

[qwazse 4371]

Just now, qwazse said:

…OPO.

🙄  = on paper only 

[HashTagScouts 448]

14 minutes ago, qwazse said:

To acquire Venturers in any significant number, the registration fee will have to be less than the cost of a pizza and a movie.
While we’re rumoring, scuttle but says there are co-Ed troops being piloted.

But even on an informal basis this is happening. I was manning a station at spring Camporee and saw several patrols is mixed sexes. One or two may have bee ad hoc, but a couple operated well enough that I figured they weren’t segregated OPO.

Our GT hasn't been over 5 at any point since we charted it in 2021. They elect an SPL rather than PL, and male SPL/female SPL share responsibilities they work out between them on opening/closing and planning. On outdoor weekends, they function as their own patrol so if only two attend, they divide all their responsibilities amongst the two (cooking, KP duty, etc.). I too have seen true co-ed units as well though. One unit near me, they had only a single SPL in 2022 for "the two units", and happened to be a girl that was elected.

I used the co-ed Den example in another post  of what these pilots amount to. Our pack had 2 females when that pilot was announced, not in the same age, but had one DL assigned that worked with them together (1 was Bear, the other AoL). Council flat out told the Cubmaster to opt into the pilot, as many other units were already doing it co-ed anyway. These pilots aren't to "discover something new", they are to affirm where others are already going rouge.  

[AwakeEnergyScouter 255]

@BetterWithCheddar, I also appreciate the courage to share, and the gentle reminder to not accidentally imply that all individuals who had a gender-segregated scouting experience failed to learn how to work with the opposite gender respectfully. The folks on our committee who scouted gender-segregated are quite well-adjusted and respectful. I see and hear other examples of that in media and on the Internet.

So, if you don't mind explaining some more - is the view you're expressing an adult-looking-back view, then, rather than what you were thinking at the time? What were your friend groups like, did you have any that were single gender? And how did you stop peacocking? (I assume you no longer do what you did back then, even when you are actively trying to catch a particular woman's romantic attention.)

The reason I ask is that while I've certainly seen peacocking, I don't remember seeing much of it in middle school (but that was long ago so maybe I didn't notice or don't remember), and middle school was when girls and boys in my town started to form mixed-gender friend groups spontaneously after the "cooties" period in elementary school. There was kind of a redefining of gender relationships to reduce overall tension as people let go of some fixed ideas about what girls and boys were like, and people sorted themselves more along interest and personality lines and disregarded gender except for romantic pursuits. Almost like now that we were starting to turn into men and women, we could stop role-playing gender and just do what we wanted.

So for me, middle school was a time of relaxation into friendships with boys - and I do mean friendships - in a way that sounds almost opposite to your experience. 

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter 255]

On 5/9/2024 at 12:22 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

2 reasons.

1. Guys will always hide their feelings, emotions, and turmoil. Especially when when trying to make an impression on similarly aged females. But even as adults the societal norm is that men need to be the tough, unemotional and independent, despite that folks say otherwise. Sadly I know folks who have major physical and emotional traume, and when they go to their wives or significant others, they have been told to deal with it themselves, or worse divorced because the health issue caused roles to be reversed. Their support is all men's groups, and even then some of this doesn't get discussed.

2. Since it didn't affect you directly, you never noticed. This has been around for quite some time.

The damage that the traditional male gender role causes is certainly very real and a problem to solve for sure. The suffering is so unnecessary. I'm surprised to hear that people would divorce someone for needing support - you know, scratch that, I've heard of people divorcing their spouses after a cancer diagnosis. Some people are just... Not considerate. But unlike cancer, divorcing someone for breaking gender roles has a pattern to it that can be more systematically addressed than being people being shallow.

This issue has indeed been around forever, and I knew about it when I was a scout. Feminism was a big topic of discussion in middle and especially high school. There was a lot of mutual exploring of how traditional gender roles impact girls and boys, men and women. How we had felt in various situations, what we wished would have been the situation instead. Obviously, the general gist always ended up being that we resolved to consciously support other people who didn't want to be imprisoned by their gender role, and used each other's experiences to understand better what to say and do to let people know that we didn't really care if they didn't conform to their gender role. Tangential but related, I heard a lot of complaints from my male friends and my BF about the constant pecking order checking and re-checking. Sounds exhausting! 

But I was a little surprised to see this, because one pattern of behavior I've seen men take literally for decades to help themselves survive while working to slowly weaken the grip of gender roles is to seek out female friends and co-workers... And patrolmates. My husband had groomswomen at our wedding, because this was exactly what he did. Being a girl with STEM and outdoorsy interests, I've been a talk-about-your-feelings friend for many a male friend. So to me, gender-integrated patrols is the obvious solution to the problem you bring up. You can have the situation of a few girls being together in that close way, and a male patrolmate can just join the atmosphere if he wants. Some did, some didn't. Their choice. Similarly, I was able to see that I can also rise to the 'provider' role, I can be the strong caretaker if that's what's needed. We girls all did in part because of the nature of scouting activities but probably also because it's less taboo for girls to act like boys than vice versa. The female gender role has weakened more than the male role.

The phenomenon that I never saw was boys my age saying "I need time away from girls in my own boys-only space". I didn't see any boys-only friend groups past third grade. Sometimes refugees from the Bosnian war would drive around town in all-male groups, and it was notable that they never, ever had any girls with them. Had we been saying sus like the alpha kids, we definitely would have called it sus. 

[Eagle94-A1 2737]

7 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

The damage that the traditional male gender role causes is certainly very real and a problem to solve for sure. The suffering is so unnecessary. I'm surprised to hear that people would divorce someone for needing support - you know, scratch that, I've heard of people divorcing their spouses after a cancer diagnosis. Some people are just... Not considerate. But unlike cancer, divorcing someone for breaking gender roles has a pattern to it that can be more systematically addressed than being people being shallow.

You may be quite surprised at the number of divorces because the man is no longer able to support his family, or gets critically ill and the wife is unwilling to support him. And you would be surprised at the number of men, who bust their butts supporting their wives in higher education, only to divorce them once they got what they want. It is a lot more common than you think

 

7 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

This issue has indeed been around forever, and I knew about it when I was a scout. Feminism was a big topic of discussion in middle and especially high school. There was a lot of mutual exploring of how traditional gender roles impact girls and boys, men and women. How we had felt in various situations, what we wished would have been the situation instead. Obviously, the general gist always ended up being that we resolved to consciously support other people who didn't want to be imprisoned by their gender role, and used each other's experiences to understand better what to say and do to let people know that we didn't really care if they didn't conform to their gender role. Tangential but related, I heard a lot of complaints from my male friends and my BF about the constant pecking order checking and re-checking. Sounds exhausting! 

Sadly women say they want men who break gender norms, but in actuality do not. This is based on my personal experience, observations, and from reading research conducted on the topic. 

 

7 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

But I was a little surprised to see this, because one pattern of behavior I've seen men take literally for decades to help themselves survive while working to slowly weaken the grip of gender roles is to seek out female friends and co-workers... And patrolmates. My husband had groomswomen at our wedding, because this was exactly what he did. Being a girl with STEM and outdoorsy interests, I've been a talk-about-your-feelings friend for many a male friend. So to me, gender-integrated patrols is the obvious solution to the problem you bring up. You can have the situation of a few girls being together in that close way, and a male patrolmate can just join the atmosphere if he wants. Some did, some didn't. Their choice. Similarly, I was able to see that I can also rise to the 'provider' role, I can be the strong caretaker if that's what's needed. We girls all did in part because of the nature of scouting activities but probably also because it's less taboo for girls to act like boys than vice versa. The female gender role has weakened more than the male role.

I do not believe gender integrated patrol will solve the problem. Based upon my experiences and observations not only in Scouts, but in multiple environments, when teenage boys get together by themselves, they act one way. As soon as a girl is in the picture, there is the competition to get her attention.

regarding the guys you had the talks about feeling with, if you were single, would you date any of them?

7 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

The phenomenon that I never saw was boys my age saying "I need time away from girls in my own boys-only space". I didn't see any boys-only friend groups past third grade. Sometimes refugees from the Bosnian war would drive around town in all-male groups, and it was notable that they never, ever had any girls with them. Had we been saying sus like the alpha kids, we definitely would have called it sus. 

Probably because boys won't admit it to girls. Again when girls are around, the focus is on getting their attention.

[AwakeEnergyScouter 255]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

regarding the guys you had the talks about feeling with, if you were single, would you date any of them?

Of course. That's how I got several boyfriends, including this last one that I married and had a cub scout with. I've also supported him financially when he was unemployed. He supported me when I was unemployed. That's how partnership works.

In fact, that's in general how I expected to find a partner based on adults' how-we-met stories, movies, TV, etc. You become friends, you hang out, enjoy each other's company, and if there's mutual romantic interest see if it could go somewhere... if you dare. The risk is always ruining a good friendship. 

I had a crush on one of the boys in my patrol, but I couldn't tell if he was interested in me like that and didn't want to risk awkward patrol dynamics or even having to leave so I never did anything with that.

 

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Probably because boys won't admit it to girls. Again when girls are around, the focus is on getting their attention.

I'm assuming there's some kind of bound on this statement? Surely you don't mean that every man on this forum is focused on getting the female scouters' attention, or that men can't get any work done in mixed-gender workplaces because their focus goes to getting the women's attention. 

I have heard people say that boys need a girl-free space here and in other places on the Internet, and I'm a woman so clearly men do admit it to women. Men post it for all to see, including girls and women. It's an opinion that's around in the media landscape. Current boys don't have to admit it to current girls in order for the idea to swirl around. And the idea wasn't swirling around when I was a scout, at least not where I was.

[BetterWithCheddar 141]

13 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

So, if you don't mind explaining some more - is the view you're expressing an adult-looking-back view, then, rather than what you were thinking at the time?

It's more of the former - I look back fondly on that experience now. During those formative years, I didn't spend much time contemplating the role of Scouting in my life. I just enjoyed being a Boy Scout.

 

13 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

What were your friend groups like, did you have any that were single gender?

My closest friends in middle school and high school were all boys. Around 8th grade, we started mingling with a group of girls at our school, but there was always a separate "boy clique" and "girl clique."

 

13 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

And how did you stop peacocking?

I developed a better sense of self-awareness over time. One of the biggest challenges of those early teen years is that our bodies are becoming adult-like, yet we lack the emotional maturity of an adult.

[BetterWithCheddar 141]

@AwakeEnergyScouter, do you really see a lot of damage and suffering caused by men who cling to traditional gender roles? Can you provide an example? I do believe there is such thing as "toxic masculinity" (where one's narrow focus on perceived masculine attributes becomes a net negative on society or their personal relationships), but men embracing the traditional "provider" role is still largely a good thing. Think of how many of today's problems could be solved by a present father who ensured his children were housed, clothed, and fed. I view the lack of masculinity as the greater pitfall.

** And to be clear, my wife and I have a lot of strengths and interests that follow traditional gender roles and some that don't. Every couple is different and that's OK. This isn't some weird flex on my part. I'm not particularly handy, I drive an old Camry, and would take a margarita over a beer. I do, however, earn enough to pay our bills, save a little for retirement, and occasionally buy a sweet Lego set. 🙂

[rallybug 17]

On 5/11/2024 at 4:51 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

@AwakeEnergyScouter, do you really see a lot of damage and suffering caused by men who cling to traditional gender roles? Can you provide an example? I do believe there is such thing as "toxic masculinity" (where one's narrow focus on perceived masculine attributes becomes a net negative on society or their personal relationships), but men embracing the traditional "provider" role is still largely a good thing. Think of how many of today's problems could be solved by a present father who ensured his children were housed, clothed, and fed. I view the lack of masculinity as the greater pitfall.

** And to be clear, my wife and I have a lot of strengths and interests that follow traditional gender roles and some that don't. Every couple is different and that's OK. This isn't some weird flex on my part. I'm not particularly handy, I drive an old Camry, and would take a margarita over a beer. I do, however, earn enough to pay our bills, save a little for retirement, and occasionally buy a sweet Lego set. 🙂

I would say that, here in the US today, a "man embracing the traditional 'provider' role" leads to many fathers who aren't present in their child's life - so many people have to work really long hours, whether that is actually working or with a 2-hour commute each way, that they barely see their kids, and they can't rock the boat because their health insurance is tied to keeping that job, or the mortgage/rent they have to pay is so high they can't move to a job with a better work/life balance

...

[fred8033 1604]

On 5/11/2024 at 5:51 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

...  I do believe there is such thing as "toxic masculinity" ... but men embracing the traditional "provider" role is still largely a good thing. ... I view the lack of masculinity as the greater pitfall.

Well said though though I can easily flex on the "provider" view.  I know many very feminine women who have strong professional careers earning good money and I know many very masculine men who daily wash dishes, do laundry, vacuum and bathe their kids.  

I agree though that we scare too many of our young men away from being masculine.