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24 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

Sorry, the older scouts being the 16 & 17 y/o scouts. In our troop, the scouts know it is their troop. They run it using the patrol method. I have two 17 y/o Eagle Scouts that are my troop guides. Their entire function is to help the SPL make the right leadership decisions. Each patrol also has an ASM assigned to them so there is adult guidance. But, all my ASMs know that failure is ok. It is ok for the scouts to make mistakes so they can learn from their mistakes. As for me, I mentor the Eagle Patrol since they are JASMs. I want them to mimic my servant leadership style until they can come up with their own way.... I think it helps set them on the right path towards a lifelong journey of "cheerful service"/ 

Sounds like a great troop. Ours functioned much the same way.

I instructed the scouters in my adult training classes that if they would focus on a quality older scout program, they will inherit a quality younger scout program. Troops tend to do the reverse leaving the older scout program as more of just a hang out for the scouts and fill in when they are needed. Older scouts need to set the tone of the program just as you said so the younger scouts learn good habits simply by seeing them in action.

Barry

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No. Yes.    Yes.  The guys at national are idiots.

As mentioned before in this thread, allow 18 year old seniors to be registered as youth.   While that doesn't help 19 or 20 year olds, it addresses the biggest issue. I would have the rule be for

One problem with intense litigation: … it discourages voluntary reporting. But, from what I’ve come to understand, it depends. Formidable predators (let’s consider the adult serial rapist) may

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1 minute ago, Eagledad said:

... younger scouts learn good habits simply by seeing them in action.

Before my tenure as SM... the troop operated way differently and the scouts were used to the adults doing everything and making all the decisions. It took a few years to get them operating like a troop should, but that effort paid a lot of dividends for us. We're certainly not perfect by any means... but I am incredibly proud when I see my scouts leading the way in their schools and having great impacts on our community. It took a lot of explaining to the other leaders that if we loosened up our grip... the scouts would take charge and surprise us. We still have hiccups every now and then, which is to be expected, but that just teaches the scouts how to adapt and overcome (roll with the punches life throws your way). 

We had two Eagle Project proposals at last night's committee meetings and the two 14-y/o scouts were commanding with their presentations and took every curveball the committee tossed their way. When I see our scouts performing like this... it does make me think we are giving them a solid program. 

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2 hours ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

Before my tenure as SM... the troop operated way differently and the scouts were used to the adults doing everything and making all the decisions. It took a few years to get them operating like a troop should, but that effort paid a lot of dividends for us. We're certainly not perfect by any means... but I am incredibly proud when I see my scouts leading the way in their schools and having great impacts on our community. It took a lot of explaining to the other leaders that if we loosened up our grip... the scouts would take charge and surprise us. We still have hiccups every now and then, which is to be expected, but that just teaches the scouts how to adapt and overcome (roll with the punches life throws your way). 

We had two Eagle Project proposals at last night's committee meetings and the two 14-y/o scouts were commanding with their presentations and took every curveball the committee tossed their way. When I see our scouts performing like this... it does make me think we are giving them a solid program. 

Well said. I agree with the how the program can impact the community. One year I learned that 6 of the 7 students voted as leaders by the high school student body were scouts in our troop. The 7th was a girl. None of those scouts told me, I learned it later from a teacher. Surely that can't be coincidence in a school of 2800 students. 

Barry

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Ok, blood less boiling, I want to address this in particular and YPT in general.

Yes, YPT is burdensome and in some edge-cases overly burdensome, some dare say unrealistic.

But YPT did not come out of thin air.

  1. One-on-one with adults was not just magically created. It's part and parcel of child sexual abuse.
  2. And yes, declaring someone an adult at age 18 is problematic. But it is a clear, bright line that at least has a legal basis (a person is per se an adult at 18 in all states). Asking unit leaders to parse out whether the 17 year old talking to the 18 year old as a friend, as an ASM, in the context of Scouting, etc. would be impossible. Asking scouts to provide a "list of all 18 year olds" and saying it is OK to talk to THOSE 18 year olds but no THOSE OTHER 18 year olds is AND THEN asking ASMs to keep track of that list is just asking for trouble. Bright lines can be arbitrary, but the alternative is to ask unit leaders to make constant judgement calls ("Is that 18 year old ASM on the "OK to talk to" list?). Asking leaders to self-police themselves didn't turn out so well, to the tune of thousands of sexual abuse claims.
  3. The in-scouting/out-of-scouting issue. I hope everyone took YPT recently. Note that one of the victims discussed how a scout leader became a "family friend" and as a "family friend" abused him. There are other instances reported in the bankruptcy case of the SM/ASM who convinced the scout to come to his house OUTSIDE THE CONTEXT OF SCOUTING just to hang out and watch TV. Well, the argument goes, when I invited John Doe over it wasn't ASM to Scout, it was family friend/mentor to young man in need. And guess what? BSA's getting sued for it now. That is the pernicious part of this sexual abuse. When does that abusive ASM stop being the "ASM" and become the "family friend" that abuses the scout? Again, watch the YPT video and listen to the words. BSA opted to lay out a rule that covered ALL occurrences at ALL times because again, the alternative would leave too much to interpretation of the unit leaders or parents/adults and expose BSA to too much liability.
  4. "But no other groups do this," You're darn right. And no other groups are looking at this level of sexual abuse claims and cases. Why doesn't Little League or the GSUSA have this level of restrictions? Because they don't have a 100+ year PUBLIC, LITIGATED track record of thousands of claims of sexual abuse. Maybe if they did, they'd have something akin to what BSA adopted as YPT. It is MUCH more likely that in the next decade those other organizations will start to look more like BSA's YPT than the reverse (BSA loosen its YPT rules and goes back to where it was in the 1970s). I know the Catholic Church's lesson was to embrace their version of YPT (in my area it is called Virtus, there's other very similar programs in other dioceses).
  5. Not only is YPT not going away anytime soon/reverting back to the "good old days", it will likely get more restrictive. Keep in mind that in the context of the bankruptcy the TCC/FCR/Coalition managed to get the BSA to agree to an outside, independent review of the entire YPT system and that that reviewer's recommendations would be made and reports issued. I find it extremely unlikely that reviewer is going to not find anything to change. It may be somewhat simple (YPT is valid only for 1 year not 2, which some councils have already moved towards) or it may crank up the restrictions on adult-to-youth contact even more. But no one should think for a second that the "good old days" of the 1970s are coming back. And with thousands of sexually abused scouts, they shouldn't come back anyway.
  6. Obedience and "games": I saw YPT referred to as a "game" to be played. It isn't. And while you may not like the rules, as a scouter you are suppose to obey them. It's part of the agreement you signed with your adult application. No one is forcing anyone here at gunpoint to remain in scouting. If YPT is too much of a burden for you, by all means, leave. But while I find most disturbing than anything is the notion that Scout Leaders should "Don't ask, don't tell" when they see a YP violation. That's PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE, verbatim, of what we are trained to do in YP. The idea that people on this forums believe looking the other way ("Don't ask, don't tell") when a YP violation happens just sickens me. I don't care if it is minor or major in your opinion. You address it or get the heck out of scouting. Aside from that there is the rank hypocrisy: sure you can tell scouts to be Obedient, you can mouth the Oath and Law, but when YP gets in the way of what it is you want to do you just want to ignore it? Don't ask, don't tell? Unacceptable. You want to advocate for changing the rule? Fine, knock yourselves out. But I hope and pray I never, ever, EVER see another person refer to YP as a "game" or actively (or passively/implicitly) encourage leaders to ignore YP.

 

Edited by CynicalScouter
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22 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Which is why my son is not becoming a Scouter, and why I am backing him up in his decision 100%.

It's a loss for your unit, but I agree. I don't see any way for a an 18 year old to live their life normally and be a registered ASM following the YPT rules as written, if they have younger friends still in the Troop. 

Obviously, I'm a hypocrite, because I did it. I'm not sure how aware I was that hanging out with my friends outside of Scouts was a YPT violation. I'd like to say I followed the spirit of the rules, but not the letter of them. But I wouldn't recommend that to somebody else do what I did.

Edited by Sentinel947
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7 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

'm not sure how aware I was that hanging out with my friends outside of Scouts was a YPT violation. 

YP rules were not extended outside of Scouting activities until 2018. So glad I was an 18-20 YO ASM when I was.

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9 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

YP rules were not extended outside of Scouting activities until 2018. So glad I was an 18-20 YO ASM when I was.

Was it really that recent? If so, that makes me feel a little better about my own decisions, but really concerns me that it took them that long. 

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2 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

Was it really that recent? If so, that makes me feel a little better about my own decisions, but really concerns me that it took them that long. 

Does it make a real difference?  IF we claim to "live the Promise", do we need an official declaration or statement to carry it beyond the program?  Just asking, as my life view has almost always been affected by my Scouting experience.  

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4 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Does it make a real difference?  IF we claim to "live the Promise", do we need an official declaration or statement to carry it beyond the program?  Just asking, as my life view has almost always been affected by my Scouting experience.  

I'm not sure I understand your question. 

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8 minutes ago, skeptic said:

IF we claim to "live the Promise", do we need an official declaration or statement to carry it beyond the program? 

No.  We do not need to be registered adult in a scouting program in order to practice some of its values in our everyday lives.  However, scouting is a game for boys.  It isn't a blueprint for adult life.  

 

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38 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

I'm not sure I understand your question. 

It is more of a statement to those suggesting that somehow carrying YP beyond Scouting should be in the YP material.  Perhaps I misread a few comments, but I got the impression a few thought National actually needed to put that idea into the program.  So, my circuitous thinking is simply that we do not need National or anyone to tell us to live the Oath and Law and other precepts of the program beyond Scouting.  I am old and confuse myself much of the time.  I mean, I still tend to use the left handed, three finger Scout Sign handshake.  But I get confused when confronted with the OA options, particularly since as a Vigil, I guess there is a separate finger grip.  I just let the other person decide how many fingers, but I draw a line at toes.

 

Edited by skeptic
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4 minutes ago, skeptic said:

It is more of a statement to those suggesting that somehow carrying YP beyond Scouting should be in the YP material.  Perhaps I misread a few comments, but I got the impression a few thought National actually needed to put that idea into the program.   

I think you understand this correctly.  Some scouters do feel this way.  

 

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11 minutes ago, skeptic said:

It is more of a statement to those suggesting that somehow carrying YP beyond Scouting should be in the YP material.  Perhaps I misread a few comments, but I got the impression a few thought National actually needed to put that idea into the program.  So, my circuitous thinking is simply that we do not need National or anyone to tell us to live the Oath and Law and other precepts of the program beyond Scouting.  I am old and confuse myself much of the time.  I mean, I still tend to use the left handed, three finger Scout Sign handshake.  But I get confused when confronted with the OA options, particularly since as a Vigil, I guess there is a separate finger grip.  I just let the other person decide how many fingers, but I draw a line at toes.

 

If people always followed the law, and ethical behavior, there wouldn't be a need for YPT rules. 

Because people don't always do that, YPT got created. Because some predators make connections in Scouting, but then commit the abuse outside of Scouting, the BSA has tried to expand YPT to apply outside of Scouting activities. 

I think as a policy it's a good idea, but it's an absolute nightmare to enforce. Well intentioned. 

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1 hour ago, Sentinel947 said:

I think as a policy it's a good idea

I disagree with you.  I think it is a terrible idea.

There are some aspects of scouting that make the program more susceptible to abuse than other youth activities.  This isn't one of them.  It doesn't matter where people first meet, whether it be scouting, little league, 4-H club, band practice, or McDonald's playland.  Making friends always entails a risk.  Your friends might betray you.

No youth group should be able to tell its members who they can or cannot be friends with outside of their activity.  This is just plain wrong.

 

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